Dutch Ban Burqa from Public Life

[Kenneth]

Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister Rita Verdonk banning the wearing of the burqa in public places.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6160620.stm

The Dutch cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.


So, in your opinion is it:

1. Just more State repression of personal liberty and freedom of choice.
2. A necessary measure in terms of integration.
3. Something else.

[Justcurious]

Would they also ban Lord, the Eurovision Song Contest winner this year?

http://www.bahraintribune.com/Archiv...2006_p12-2.jpg

[Kenneth]

I hear you, but this isn't - despite what they say - about safety or public order as much as it is about throwing a bone to those elements within the majority who feel (and sometimes justifibly so) that they are the ones who are doing all the giving while the minorities are just taking.

Also, while I would like to live in a world where you can customise your appearence as you wish (within limits obviously), currently we don't live in such a world, there is a lot of tension and distrust out there. So for now I think it might be a good idea that everyone keeps their hands (or faces in this case) where everyone else can see them.

I also think the Sikh community should give up it's knife where it is illegal for non-Sikhs to carry one.

Once everything settles down the burqa law will be removed.

[Mira]

As a woman, there are two types of women who just make me feel sad; the extreme plastic surgery freaks and the burqa clad women. I have no problems with hijabs as a woman. I understand an observant woman's desire to dress with modesty and yet the hijab does not totally hide a woman's humanity, which the burqa does in my view. They look like spooks! I can't tell if there is a human being under there or an orangutan. And what does the burqa say about men? Think about it. If a woman has to completely negate their femininity in order to be deemed respectable, in order not to elicit desires of rape, then Islam has an extremely low opinion of men and I would be really insulted if I were one. The damn thing wasn't really worn except in a few unusually oppressive countries until recently. Now you see them in cities all over the place. An increase in religious fervor perhaps? Or is it really a very misguided political statement? I'm not sure that banning the burqa is the way to go and honestly, I don't know how as a woman to deal with it other than to be thankful that the disgusting thing is not mandatory.

[chaver4u2]

Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister Rita Verdonk banning the wearing of the burqa in public places.

It's not a ban on the burqa specifically. It's a ban on hiding your face in public places. One is not allowed to enter a bank with a full helmet + visor, for instance. This same law already exists in Singapore since 1988, which was instituted when I happened to live there. Mind you, the Singaporeans are very strict about their laws. They instituted it when too many banks were robbed by individuals (mmm, already then most of these robbers just "happened to be" Muslims) wearing full helmets.

Talking burqa's and Singapore: in spite of its 10% Muslim population, I haven't seen any Muslim woman there with a burqa; plenty (almost all) with covered heads, but burqa's....?!? That was as recent as 5 months ago.

[Mediocrates]

And what is this supposed to fix, again?

[farmall]

It won't fix anything on it's own, but serves as a minor reminder that new arrivals to a country should assimilate and adopt its mores. The host nation should feel zero guilt for giving immigrants orders on how to behave.

To my mind, immigration should entail EMBRACING your new found home, whose people have given (however stupidly in some cases) the immigrant a great opportunity. Immigrants who do not toe the line should be crushed and ejected. If I invite someone into my house, they live by my rules or they leave.

If the mask/burqa ban serves as a trigger for Jihadist violence, we all benefit because that will increase polarization. I want the tolerance of Europe for enemy beliefs to be destroyed by circumstance.

[1.5 million]

Mira - some great points. I have a Persian/Iranian friend who is a practicing Muslim (very knowledgable concerning the tenents of the religion) and she is someone whom I would characterize as a feminist (within some of the constraints of Islam) who lived 8 years in Suadi Arabia - and boy does she have some great stories. Once while on Hajiz (sp?) in Mecca she was (mildly) sexually accosted by two men who claimed that her liberal dress (head covered but not face and otherwise dressed somewhat modestly/conservatively). Well she gave them a real public dressing down in the presence of the religious police (whatever they are called) and really shamed these guys (who were claiming that her dress was provocative and that she was thus deserving of sexual assault. Anyway it was they who recieved admonishment (though nothing more) and not her. Anyway I too find these attitudes towards women to be barbaric (for what it says about men as well as the restrictions that it and associated "laws" impose upon women). When fundementalists (Muslim, Christian or what have you) claim that these restriction and such are only done to protect women and place them on a pedestal or such - I say Bah! It has certainly been proven otherwise. I am likewise (of course) sad by the other extreme - where many women in the West (and men) feel that they have no value other then sexual and/or whose self esteme is only by way of looks etc. I have nothing against good looks and sexy outfits and what not (far from it) - but certainly not as the do all and end all - and many take it quite too far (as the standard etc)

[Yala]

And what is this supposed to fix, again?

I don't think it's meant to "fix" anything. I think it's a message to immigrants that if they want to live in Holland then assimilation into their culture is a must. Europe is obviously NOT like the United States in terms of assimilation so they are trying some new methods which probably won't be successful but who knows?

[Mira]

Mira - some great points. I have a Persian/Iranian friend who is a practicing Muslim (very knowledgable concerning the tenents of the religion) and she is someone whom I would characterize as a feminist (within some of the constraints of Islam) who lived 8 years in Suadi Arabia - and boy does she have some great stories. Once while on Hajiz (sp?) in Mecca she was (mildly) sexually accosted by two men who claimed that her liberal dress (head covered but not face and otherwise dressed somewhat modestly/conservatively). Well she gave them a real public dressing down in the presence of the religious police (whatever they are called) and really shamed these guys (who were claiming that her dress was provocative and that she was thus deserving of sexual assault. Anyway it was they who recieved admonishment (though nothing more) and not her.

There is a reason why the men were admonished and she was not. It is because during the Hajj, women are NOT ALLOWED TO COVER THEIR FACES OR THEIR PRAYERS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED. So in the heart of Wahhabi country during the most holy of rituals, women are specifically instructed to remove the veil. The burqa is not a religious requirement; it is something else, maybe a political statement or at most a tribal or national custom. The women we are talking about are not living in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, but Western countries. I know I cannot walk naked down the streets of New York without violating public decency laws. Should there be restrictions on completely covering myself at the bank, the dmv, a courthouse, anywhere and anytime other than Holloween? Also, there is something to be said about Yala's comment regarding assimilation for new citizens. Should the nation you adopt have no expectation that its newest citizens attempt to integrate certain norms that the culture deems important for maintaining at least a somewhat cohesive society? I cannot dress the way I do in the West in some of the more strict Islamic countries. I cannot even enter some of them, but that's another issue. Should an expectation of conformity be reciprocated in the West or is personal freedom to wear whatever you please the most important value for the West and if so, then what are we doing to our most important values by restricting this dress? It's not easy.

Anyway I too find these attitudes towards women to be barbaric (for what it says about men as well as the restrictions that it and associated "laws" impose upon women). When fundementalists (Muslim, Christian or what have you) claim that these restriction and such are only done to protect women and place them on a pedestal or such - I say Bah! It has certainly been proven otherwise. I am likewise (of course) sad by the other extreme - where many women in the West (and men) feel that they have no value other then sexual and/or whose self exteme is only by way of looks etc. I have nothing against good looks and sexy outfits and what not (far from it) - but certainly not as the do all and end all - and many take it quite too far (as the standard etc)

The way people dress is in my view an expression of personal creativity. Clothes and the attitudes that people take on by what they are wearing tells me a little something about an individual's aspirations, values, self image and identity...and so on. Restricting the options means restricting that expression, so as much as it pains me to see women wear the burqa or veil in the West, I guess they should be free to do it because that is their statement, which I interpret as "I am not part of your decadent Western culture which I reject." And if that is the message that is being conveyed to me well fine. By making themselves practically invisible, completely indistinguishable from the next spook, at least they make it easy for me to ignore their message.

[Cellis]

great; we're trying to ban headscarf in Turkey but EU does not accepting it. Hypocrite EU!

[nbarzelay]

I don't think it's meant to "fix" anything. I think it's a message to immigrants that if they want to live in Holland then assimilation into their culture is a must. Europe is obviously NOT like the United States in terms of assimilation so they are trying some new methods which probably won't be successful but who knows?

This law doesn't have anything do with the assimilation policy of the Netherlands. Forcing immigrants to take Dutch speaking/writing exams, for one thing, are. This is a policy that is a logical step for national security. It just happens to be that this policy encompasses change mostly in the Muslim realm.

[Mediocrates]

So then what does extensive Maori facial tattooing tell you? Or any affect that aggressively separates one group of people from another?

[Kenneth]

That's just it, the Maori culture doesn't have the PR problem that Muslims have. They aren't seen as a possible threat to Dutch life/culture.

In Britian - or England at least - something like 78% of people polled said they would object to a ban of Burqa's and saw it as nothing more then Government repression. This despite the bombings, the Dutch see immigration and the spread of Islam as a serious problem and they want some their law makers to throw them something, anything that makes them feel they still count.

[Mira]

There are Muslim women who started wearing the veil only a few years ago. They grew up in the West and their parents / grandparents grew up in countries where it was not part of the national or tribal custom. Women in the Nation Of Islam have no history of such tribal customs in the United States and yet more and more are wearing the veil. Give me a break! I wore a shirt that said "Eat the Rich" to a country club once and I was told to go home and change my attire.

I'm all for tribal customs and people being allowed to keep them, though I don't have to like or even approve of every single one of them. Women are castrated in some countries as a part of local custom. Any girl who I could meet who informs me that she looks forward to the day her genitalia gets mutilated is someone who is so far removed from my group that I cannot even relate to her. So it goes.

And again, let's be clear...I don't believe that for the vast majority of women wearing these outfits in the West that it is even part of the local customs from which they or their parents came. When asked about them, they start bringing up issues of modesty and if you let them go on for a while, the discussion starts to head towards the topic of the decadent Western lifestyle, so the outfit is also a critique of oh...say....ME! Sorry, but confusing the burqa with modesty rules in Islam seems awfully misguided, much like the shirt I wore to the country club when I was in college.