Dutch Ban Burqa from Public Life

[psyops]

Has anyone thought about viable alternatives to the burqa?

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l3...estler_tb1.jpg

[olkiej]

Has anyone thought about viable alternatives to the burqa?

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l3...estler_tb1.jpg

lol!!!! lmao!!!!

[andak01]

actually the dress is almost the same in many countries but its name differs from country to country. as far as I know in Arabic countries they call it Hijab, in Iran they call it Chador, and in Afghanistan they call it burqa and so on. but they all refer to the same dress style

Correction. Hijab comes from the Arabic root hajaba to hide. It can refer to anything from a headscarf to a long sleeve shirt to a burka. Men have modesty requirements as well. We shouldn't show our legs or bare arms and particularly when praying. It is not required to hide the face. In fact the requirements of female modesty never exceed those of a nun's habit.

[Yala]

Correction. Hijab comes from the Arabic root hajaba to hide. It can refer to anything from a headscarf to a long sleeve shirt to a burka. Men have modesty requirements as well. We shouldn't show our legs or bare arms and particularly when praying. It is not required to hide the face. In fact the requirements of female modesty never exceed those of a nun's habit.

Does your wife wear one of those?

[andak01]

Does your wife wear one of those?

Actually no. She wears what she has intention to wear, not what I force upon her against her will. Only intention has value. Her intention is to wear it someday. One of her sisters and her mother do. Her father is an imam who has memorized the entire Quran. Again, he never forced anyone in his family to wear hijab. My wife does wear hijab while saying her prayers.

[Aviva]

Actually no. She wears what she has intention to wear, not what I force upon her against her will. Only intention has value. Her intention is to wear it someday. One of her sisters and her mother do. Her father is an imam who has memorized the entire Quran. Again, he never forced anyone in his family to wear hijab. My wife does wear hijab while saying her prayers.

Here in London I see a lot of little girls wearing the hijab. They seem to be under the age where a person could make a conscious decision about whether or not they want to be a commited Muslim, therefore it seems their parents have forced wearing it upon them.

Admittedly, a piece of clothing can be seen as being merely cultural. But in London, a small girl wearing a hijab stands out. So why would their parents tell them to wear it?

[andak01]

Here in London I see a lot of little girls wearing the hijab. They seem to be under the age where a person could make a conscious decision about whether or not they want to be a commited Muslim, therefore it seems their parents have forced wearing it upon them.

Admittedly, a piece of clothing can be seen as being merely cultural. But in London, a small girl wearing a hijab stands out. So why would their parents tell them to wear it?

I have seen that here, primarily among Indonesians. When I lived in New York, I saw quite young little boys wearing Lubavitcher dress. I would have more of a problem with that sort of thing if it causes the children to be ostracized. If they are living inside a community where that is the norm, it wouldn't whether they are Lubavitchers or Muslims or Amish. Still again, it is a cultural, rather than a religious decision. When the Sunna was created, the issue simply wasn't there.

What is your thinking about men who wear robes or skullcaps? Is a woman dressed in hijab more of a threat to society than a man in a robe?

[Aviva]

I have seen that here, primarily among Indonesians. When I lived in New York, I saw quite young little boys wearing Lubavitcher dress. I would have more of a problem with that sort of thing if it causes the children to be ostracized. If they are living inside a community where that is the norm, it wouldn't whether they are Lubavitchers or Muslims or Amish. Still again, it is a cultural, rather than a religious decision. When the Sunna was created, the issue simply wasn't there.

What is your thinking about men who wear robes or skullcaps? Is a woman dressed in hijab more of a threat to society than a man in a robe?

Sure, Lubavicher dress looks funny in our day and age. But it was only a short while ago that all decent people in western society wore suits and hats. Looking at it from that perspective, Orthodox Jews are just very smart, just unfashionably so.

As for men wearing robes and skullcaps, I see that a lot in London, so much so it's pretty common place.

My personal opinion is that it's probably better for a community to try to fit in as best they can, within the realms of their religious obligations. When I see a man wearing a robe, I wonder what his job is and how he manages to fit that job into the wearing of his attire.

[Yala]

Actually no. She wears what she has intention to wear, not what I force upon her against her will. Only intention has value. Her intention is to wear it someday. One of her sisters and her mother do. Her father is an imam who has memorized the entire Quran. Again, he never forced anyone in his family to wear hijab. My wife does wear hijab while saying her prayers.

Thanks for answering. I wasn't implying that you forced it upon anyone. I'm sure some are forced and I'm also sure many choose it all on their own. If I'm not being too personal, may I ask if you converted for marriage? I am always very interested in conversion stories. I know 2 people who are reading the Koran now and plan to convert to Islam for marriage. 1 is doing it of her own will and the other is doing it only to marry the girl.

What is your thinking about men who wear robes or skullcaps? Is a woman dressed in hijab more of a threat to society than a man in a robe?

The silk robes, fur hats, etc. are NOT Jewish tradition. They are strictly Eastern European Chassidic traditions and have no meaning to us as Jews. They are not written about in the Torah nor do we have an obligation to wear those outfits.

Skullcaps are worn by Jews, Muslims, the Pope etc. I don't know if people of other religions wear them for the same reason but Jews wear them to seperate themselves from G-d, which I think is a respectful thing and doesn't bother me. It is not that weird and doesn't stick out too much, compared to other things like fur hats and white stockings worn by Chassidic men.

A women wearing an hijab is no problem, at least in my eyes. I don't think anyone is making a big deal out of the hijab (except in France), I think it is the niqab or burqa that people are bothered by and I do understand that. It is just weird not to be able to see someone's face. If everyone was walking around in ski masks we wouldn't be comfortable either. What do you think?

[andak01]

Thanks for answering. I wasn't implying that you forced it upon anyone. I'm sure some are forced and I'm also sure many choose it all on their own.

I think a lot of people are under the impression that all women that wear a hijab are forced to do so. It's a sort of cultural centrism. "I wouldn't act like that, so they must be forced to."

If I'm not being too personal, may I ask if you converted for marriage? I am always very interested in conversion stories. I know 2 people who are reading the Koran now and plan to convert to Islam for marriage. 1 is doing it of her own will and the other is doing it only to marry the girl.

It's a very poor reason to convert. Essentially if you don't have intention, you can't convert. You might say the words and convince people, but in the eyes of God, you are a hypocrite. Do what you believe in, whether or not that ends you up in Islam. It's even worse if the woman believes in the conversion, because the marriage will be based on a lie.

I converted some time before being married and I would have converted with or without the marriage.

The silk robes, fur hats, etc. are NOT Jewish tradition. They are strictly Eastern European Chassidic traditions and have no meaning to us as Jews. They are not written about in the Torah nor do we have an obligation to wear those outfits.

I got a Muslim magazine in the mail this month with an article about how couples and families bankrupt themselves in service of lavish weddings. I don't believe any religion requires it. It's cultural.

Skullcaps are worn by Jews, Muslims, the Pope etc. I don't know if people of other religions wear them for the same reason but Jews wear them to seperate themselves from G-d, which I think is a respectful thing and doesn't bother me. It is not that weird and doesn't stick out too much, compared to other things like fur hats and white stockings worn by Chassidic men.

There is going to be a cost in so-called tolerant western society for wearing non-western dress. I doubt we'll be seeing either a yarmulke or a turban on the floor of the senate anytime soon. I don't have so much problem with the dress codes of society. However, it's hypocritical to have secularists always saying how tolerant they are and to watch how intolerant they are of open displays of religion. And I hear Christians complaining as much about that as anyone.

A women wearing an hijab is no problem, at least in my eyes. I don't think anyone is making a big deal out of the hijab (except in France), I think it is the niqab or burqa that people are bothered by and I do understand that. It is just weird not to be able to see someone's face. If everyone was walking around in ski masks we wouldn't be comfortable either. What do you think?

I could see situations where hiding one's face could be a problem. Although, if nobody never sees someone's face in public, it's not like they are going to identify them from a license photo. If someone doesn't want to fit in, there is a price to pay, but the price should be proportionate to the action.

In situations like airport security or high risk public venues, nobody has the right to ask society to turn on its ear to accomodate every custom of every culture. But in my opinion, insuring that people get an education of some sort regardless of dress code is itself an issue of national security. Remember, those burka clad women came from another environment where they were refused an education because of their gender. They are prime candidates to show that western culture can be both tolerant and beneficial.