The Palestinians Insist On Their Rights, They Don't Care About Anyone Else's Rights

[Reffo]

I just finished watching a very unusual BBC program about the Arab Israeli conflict. It was unusual because by and large it was a fairly balanced program. Nevertheless, it was a very frustrating experience. Why? Because I just felt like shouting at the young attractive looking Palestinian woman who was voicing the Palestinian narrative. She kept on repeating their standard party line, their standard slogans......Occupation!! Occupation!!!....Occupation.....Part of me understood what she was saying. Part of me understood that she and her people don't want to be occupied....But what was awfully frustrating to me was the realisation that She, like most of her people, just don't want to understand what most Israelis want......Not only they don't understand, they don't even want to listen to what Israelis are trying to say to them. Most Israelis have been saying to them, for many years now, that they too are not happy with the occupation.......but, and it's a very big but! Most Israelis are even more concerned by their immediate and long term security and the lack of feelings of security that the Palestinians continually induce in Israelis, undermines the willingness of Israelis to move in a direction that will end the occupation. They see that everytime that they attempt to move towards ending the occupation, the Palestinians raise the level of violence. The Palestinians seem to want to bring about a situation in which they are seen to be continually kicking the proverbial butt of Israel while Israel retreats in a disorderly manner. A bit like what happened in 2000 in South Lebanon when Barak unilaterally withdrew from there......But of course Israelis have learnt from that mistake, they have seen that despite their withdrawal from South Lebanon, thir problems with the Lebanese have not been solved and the attacks on them from Lebanon have not stopped. They have also seen the outcome of the Oslo process in which they eased the occupation and granted autonomy to the Palestinians but all they got for it was more violence, continual violence. They have tried to withdraw from Gaza, unilaterally and of course the violence against Israelis actually increased.....

So, back to the BBC program: One of the Israeli spokesmen mentioned the above historical context. He recounted how the Palestinians were given the opportunity to get their independence but they failed the test which would have allowed them to realise that goal. I felt like yelling at the Palestinian woman who kept on butting in and talked over the Israeli....She kept on yelling that all occupied people resort to violence because they don't want to live under someone else's rule.....She kept on yelling that Israel should just leave the Palestinians alone..... And I felt like yelling at her:

"OK then, the Palestinians should leave the Israeli people alone, stop the bloody violence already and compromise......All the Israeli people ever wanted was to be left alone.....but all they got from the Arabs, including the Palestinian Arabs, was violence....violence....violence....even before any occupation......even before 1948......ever since the 1920s, the Arabs have been trying to solve their problems through violence.....They never wanted compromise.....they wanted everything for themselves and they didn't recognise any rights for Jews.......and that was their attitude and that's how they acted way before the West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Israel"

I felt like shouting at her: "Just stop your violence....really stop it.....don't just pretend.....and you will have your state......you will have your independence .......and the occupation will end!!!!!!"

But then I realised that she and her compatriots wouldn't hear me even if I yelled right into her (their collective) ear/s!!!! They wouldn't hear me or voices like mine because they just don't want to hear......All they are interested in is hearing their own shouts, their own demands....their own rights.....They are not interested in anyone else's rights!!!!!!

[r2sputin]

Acknowledging the rights of others would entail compromising some of their own ambitions. But at any rate, it isn't about rights. It's about them discovering that they really don't have to do any work whatsoever to garner mass sympathy and Israeli concessions. Normally a nation would be expected to demonstrate that it can behave responsibly and in a civilized maner as a prerequisite to peace negotiations, but the Palestinians have essentially bypassed this stage altogether. As soon as they discovered that screaming "occupation" and blaming Israel for every one of their problems works, why would they stop?

But don't worry, it will come back to bite them of course. Within a few years when Israel withdraws from most of Yesha and they have their "state", they'll just burn it into the ground like they did with Gaza. But by then nobody is going to listen to them when they blame it all on Israel.

[Reffo]

Normally a nation would be expected to demonstrate that it can behave responsibly and in a civilized maner as a prerequisite to peace negotiations

That's exactly what the Israeli spokesperson said. And the Palestinian woman's response was......"We don't want to be tested....we just want the occupation to end.....!!!"

[r2sputin]

Yes, it's all part of this mentality that they are somehow entitled to something for nothing. The same mentality that leads them to think that the occupation is responsible for all their misery. We can't change that mentality. We don't even need to. Let them keep thinking that way, and let's see where they end up in 15 years.

I wouldn't worry about what their spokespeople say. Just ignore them. I don't even know why the Israelis bother responding to this, actually. In Russian we have a phrase, "kak ob steny garoh" - it means "like throwing peas against a wall." That's what it's like talking to people like that. The only thing you hear about is occupation. Let them waste their lives if they want, we have better things to do.

[Reffo]

I wouldn't worry about what their spokespeople say. Just ignore them. I don't even know why the Israelis bother responding to this, actually. In Russian we have a phrase, "kak ob steny garoh" - it means "like throwing peas against a wall." That's what it's like talking to people like that. The only thing you hear about is occupation. Let them waste their lives if they want, we have better things to do.

Even though it seems that we can't convince them, we ignore them at our own peril. If we ignore them, the world will only hear their narrative and they will manage to get all and sundry on their side.....I think that was the problem in the first few years after the six day war. The glory went to the head of many of us Jews and suddenly Israelis felt invincible.....Prior to the war, the west was largely sympathetic to Israel because they were viewed as the underdogs. After the war, the Israelis dropped the ball, they didn't worry about explaining their side of the story and look at where that got them.....Admittedly, that wasn't the only factor, events like the 1982 Lebanon war didn't help either but by then the damage was done and the Palestinians managed to get themselves a lot of sympathy both on the left side of politics and with the extreme right (where of course they always had sympathy because anyone who hates Jews is their friend).

[Yala]

But by then nobody is going to listen to them when they blame it all on Israel.

Why do you say that? Do you think people thought in 1948 that the Israelis would be blamed for all the Palestinian/Arab problems when the Palestinians/Arabs have been on the offensive since day one? As much as people hate Arabs, they hate Jews more. It's an ancient hatred that aint going anywhere.

Do you realize that Israel is being blamed for this mess going on in Lebanon right now? Do you realize all sides are blaming Israel? The anti-Syrian/Hezbollah groups are blaming Israel for not hitting Hezbollah hard enough. Yes, the same groups that sided with Hezbollah during the war and called Israelis "vicious monsters" etc. Then there is the pro-Syrian/Hezbollah side that blames Israel for existing. This nonsense would be hilarious if peoples' lives were not at stake.

[r2sputin]

Even though it seems that we can't convince them, we ignore them at our own peril. If we ignore them, the world will only hear their narrative and they will manage to get all and sundry on their side.....I think that was the problem in the first few years after the six day war. The glory went to the head of many of us Jews and suddenly Israelis felt invincible.....Prior to the war, the west was largely sympathetic to Israel because they were viewed as the underdogs. After the war, the Israelis dropped the ball, they didn't worry about explaining their side of the story and look at where that got them.....Admittedly, that wasn't the only factor, events like the 1982 Lebanon war didn't help either but by then the damage was done and the Palestinians managed to get themselves a lot of sympathy both on the left side of politics and with the extreme right (where of course they always had sympathy because anyone who hates Jews is their friend).

Yes, but what's the point of "debate" if their response will be the same every single time, no matter what you say? There are other things Israel can do do bolster its image. Actually engaging their spokespeople is pointless, the result is always the same and there's no way the Israeli can look better unless we adopt the same propaganda techniques the Palestinians use, and as you know that's just something we don't do.

[r2sputin]

Why do you say that? Do you think people thought in 1948 that the Israelis would be blamed for all the Palestinian/Arab problems when the Palestinians/Arabs have been on the offensive since day one? As much as people hate Arabs, they hate Jews more. It's an ancient hatred that aint going anywhere.

Do you realize that Israel is being blamed for this mess going on in Lebanon right now? Do you realize all sides are blaming Israel? The anti-Syrian/Hezbollah groups are blaming Israel for not hitting Hezbollah hard enough. Yes, the same groups that sided with Hezbollah during the war and called Israelis "vicious monsters" etc. Then there is the pro-Syrian/Hezbollah side that blames Israel for existing. This nonsense would be hilarious if peoples' lives were not at stake.

That's all true, but what you want to do is minimize the attention people pay to Israel. Right now with the Palestinians screaming about occupation they can catch the attention of a lot of people. Look at the words they use: subjugation, expansionism, imperialism, and so on. These are all fancy words that morons in the west have knee jerk reactions to, whether or not they are even appropriate descriptors in this scenario. After the Palestinians get their state they lose the ability to do that. Of course they'll still blame Israel for everything ranging from the common cold to impotence, but so what? That's not nearly as effective as what they have now.

[Reffo]

Yes, but what's the point of "debate" if their response will be the same every single time, no matter what you say? There are other things Israel can do do bolster its image. Actually engaging their spokespeople is pointless, the result is always the same and there's no way the Israeli can look better unless we adopt the same propaganda techniques the Palestinians use, and as you know that's just something we don't do.

Look at it this way: What sort of message would have gone out to the BBC audience if only the Palestinian side of the story would have been presented and there wouldn't have been anyone telling the Israeli side of the story?.....Now repeat such a one sided situation say a few thousand times over a few years and what have you got?......You have everyone on the side of the Palestinians and everyone against Israel.....!!!!

[r2sputin]

Unless Israel can develop a PR alternative to actually engaging Palestinians. They just need to stop being on the defensive, there's no way they can come out of a debate looking better if the opponent practically starts crying after describing the "evils of occupation". If you ask half the people in this country what they think of Israel the only thing they'll come up with is occupation. Which of course is nonsense, because anybody who understands anything about economics, industry and academics knows that Israelis overcame incredible odds in 1948 and afterwards to create a modern and successful nation in a short time span while their neighbors are still living in the dark ages (with the exception of Lebanon, but they will be soon as well.) But nobody knows that because all they hear about is occupation so they think Israel's success is all done on the backs of Palestinians. And that's what they're going to keep thinking if we even bother responding to these idiots and their occupation ravings.

[MGB8]

The correct response is: The Palestinians do not have to be under anyone's rule. The occupation could be ended within months, but it will not have all the land that you want, nor will you be able to satisfy all your ambitions, but you will have self-rule. All you have to do is accept reasonable compromises to address Israel's security and demographic concerns. If you are unable to do that, then this isn't about Palestinian self-determination, this is about the destruction of Israel.

[MGB8]

Let me try to bridge the gap between your two positions:

The Israeli strategy must be the same as the Pal Arab strategy. That is, not so much to "engage" the Palestinians (although that should be done too, but as a different front on this war), but, instead, to do EXACTLY AS THEY DO.

Have short, pre-prepared answers to "occupation, occupation, occupation." Namely "Jihadism, Jihadism, Jihadism." And then do the above counter argument, each time, simply. Touch on the history when necessary - know it like the back of the hand for when it is necessary - but, in general, answer back in the same repetitive and simplistic narrative that the Pal Arabs use on Israel.

[farmall]

"Have short, pre-prepared answers to "occupation, occupation, occupation." Namely "Jihadism, Jihadism, Jihadism." And then do the above counter argument, each time, simply. Touch on the history when necessary - know it like the back of the hand for when it is necessary - but, in general, answer back in the same repetitive and simplistic narrative that the Pal Arabs use on Israel."

Excellent.
Debate should always be in simple terms, because the public remembers simple phrases repeated often.

[Lugh]

Do you think people thought in 1948 that the Israelis would be blamed for all the Palestinian/Arab problems when the Palestinians/Arabs have been on the offensive since day one? As much as people hate Arabs, they hate Jews more. It's an ancient hatred that aint going anywhere.

Hello

Just now joined to address this comment. First, wouldn't it be fair to say that it is the Zionists who have been on the offensive? After all, it wasn't they who were driven out of their towns and villages.

Secondly, If you believe that there is an ancient hatred for Jews, to what would you attribute this? Is there, "a defect of the gentile psyche" to quote one Jewish Canadian writer?

These two questions are the crux of the conflict between Jews and Arabs, and the perceived hatred against Jews you say will always be. They're in no way asked in order to initiate emotional responses. I'd like to hear from anyone and please take your time.

Thank you

[MGB8]

(1) No Arabs would have been "driven out" (actually in vast majority fled) had the Arabs not attempted to committ genocide on the Jews in the Holy Land. The Arab violence began as Jews moved in (and Arabs also moved in to the newly created urban areas, although certainly there were pre-existing Arab villages), and Jews committed violence in return, but certainly, the Arab supremacists began the attempts at ethnic cleansing.

(2) Hatred of Jews is based on many things - tribal competition, Muhammed's mass murders of Jews and saying like "the trees will say oh Muslim there is a Jew behind me, come kill him", etc., not to mention the Christian blood libel, etc. Often, though, hatred of Jews is merely based on the fact that Jews are an "other" who is too weak to really dominate. You notice that lots of other far larger groups, who have committed much worse actions, are not so hated. People don't hate powerful opponents... its counterproductive. They hate the small, peaceful, weak and meek, because it is easy to bully them.

Hello

Just now joined to address this comment. First, wouldn't it be fair to say that it is the Zionists who have been on the offensive? After all, it wasn't they who were driven out of their towns and villages.

Secondly, If you believe that there is an ancient hatred for Jews, to what would you attribute this? Is there, "a defect of the gentile psyche" to quote one Jewish Canadian writer?

These two questions are the crux of the conflict between Jews and Arabs, and the perceived hatred against Jews you say will always be. They're in no way asked in order to initiate emotional responses. I'd like to hear from anyone and please take your time.

Thank you