The Palestinians Insist On Their Rights, They Don't Care About Anyone Else's Rights

[Lugh]

(1) No Arabs would have been "driven out" (actually in vast majority fled) had the Arabs not attempted to committ genocide on the Jews in the Holy Land. The Arab violence began as Jews moved in (and Arabs also moved in to the newly created urban areas, although certainly there were pre-existing Arab villages), and Jews committed violence in return, but certainly, the Arab supremacists began the attempts at ethnic cleansing.

Jaffa and Acre formerly served as major seaports to Palestine and are actually cities, examples of which were built centuries before the arrival of the Zionists. In 1948 Irgun bombarded Jaffa and Haganah captured Acre driving out the majority of inhabitants. You used the term Ethnic Cleansing. Isn't this what the Zionists were doing when they over took these cities?

Were these expulsions collective punishments for the "attempted genocide by Arabs" you mention? I've never heard of such an attempt, would you please elaborate.

(2) Hatred of Jews is based on many things - tribal competition, Muhammed's mass murders of Jews and saying like "the trees will say oh Muslim there is a Jew behind me, come kill him", etc., not to mention the Christian blood libel, etc. Often, though, hatred of Jews is merely based on the fact that Jews are an "other" who is too weak to really dominate. You notice that lots of other far larger groups, who have committed much worse actions, are not so hated. People don't hate powerful opponents... its counterproductive. They hate the small, peaceful, weak and meek, because it is easy to bully them.

Lets rehash. You say; The vast majority of Arabs fled their homes. The Arab supremacists attempted genocide so the Jews committed violence in return and the Arabs hate the Jews because Jews are peaceful, and too weak to really dominate.

But you do dominate. You're not living in refugee camps.

When you appear to believe your security and comfort to be more important than another's, it sounds really silly for you to call them supremacists. See what I'm saying?

When you said, "You notice that lots of other far larger groups have committed much worse actions" - to which actions were you referring? Much worse than what?


(by the way, Americans are not innocents, this is so and we criticize ourselves/government)

[Reffo]

Lugh

For whatever it's worth, here are links to a couple of my past posts. The posts describe my perspective (briefly) about Jewish immigration, the creation of Israel, the 1948 war and the refugees.....It saves me some boring repetition:

The Creation of Israel etc

The refugees

[Yala]

When you said, "You notice that lots of other far larger groups have committed much worse actions" - to which actions were you referring? Much worse than what?

Perhaps he was referring to other Arab countries who, in 1948, killed, tortured and jailed Jews and threw the rest (850,000 Jews) out of their countries, stealing their houses and money.

But you do dominate. You're not living in refugee camps.

Oh please the Jews are 6 million in a sea of 400 million Arabs and we dominate? What a joke. In case you haven't come across this information in your travels, the Palestinians live in refugee camps all throughout the Middle East, not only in the Palestinian territories. No country wishes to make them citizens b/c they have wreaked havoc in every country they have lived in and that's a fact. Research "Black September" or any book on the Lebanese Civil War, for example.

When you appear to believe your security and comfort to be more important than another's, it sounds really silly for you to call them supremacists. See what I'm saying?

Yes, we believe we have the right to live. If that offends people, we don't care.

[Yala]

Hello

Just now joined to address this comment. First, wouldn't it be fair to say that it is the Zionists who have been on the offensive? After all, it wasn't they who were driven out of their towns and villages.

No, it would not be fair to say that. Zionists bought the land, worked the land and tried to live in peace with their Arab neighbors. It was only when there was violence against them (like the Hebron massacres in 1929) that the Zionists realized they needed a state of their own, one where they could protect themselves. This was made especially clear when during WW2 the Mufti of Jerusalem incited riots against the Jews and even trained an all Muslim squad in Europe to become SS Jew killers. http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_man...rand_mufti.php

And yes, it was "Zionists" aka 850,000 Jews who were thrown out of Arab countries or in your words "who were driven out of their towns and villages" with their property and belongings stolen from them. Because they worked hard and made something of themselves is the reason you don't hear their grandchildren crying about it till this day. Not everyone has had an easy life in that part of the world, and believe me the Jews have had it the worst.

Secondly, If you believe that there is an ancient hatred for Jews, to what would you attribute this? Is there, "a defect of the gentile psyche" to quote one Jewish Canadian writer?

What would I attribute it to? Perhaps you haven't heard but the Church has admitted and apologized for their past crimes of inciting hate against the Jewish people. Did you forget about Pope John Paul's apology and admittance? Nevertheless, they have been working to change what they have done and have tried to strengthen Jewish-Christian ties but it takes time. 2,000 years of indoctrination takes a while to turn around but I think they have done a commendable job.

[MGB8]

Jaffa and Acre formerly served as major seaports to Palestine and are actually cities, examples of which were built centuries before the arrival of the Zionists. In 1948 Irgun bombarded Jaffa and Haganah captured Acre driving out the majority of inhabitants. You used the term Ethnic Cleansing. Isn't this what the Zionists were doing when they over took these cities?

And yet you ignore the arab armies who invaded Israel... nice...

As for the cities that existed before the Jewish return to their national homeland (although Jews were present throught the millenia, the vast majority had been expelled by Romans and or dominated by Muslims)... these would have continued to be Arab cities had the Arabs not attempted to committ genocide on the Jews, even if certain Arab cities would have been Arab cities in a jewish majority state -a Jewish state. You probably have no problem with Jewish cities in an Arab state... so, what would that make your position?

Meanwhile, the Jews pled with the Arabs not to flee (although in certain instances there were acts of ethnic cleansing by Jews on Arabs). However, this is in the context of a massive group of Arab armies attempting genocide on the Jews of the holy land.

Were these expulsions collective punishments for the "attempted genocide by Arabs" you mention? I've never heard of such an attempt, would you please elaborate.

Really, you have never heard of the attempted genocide of Jews by Arabs. Gee, you didn't really seem to listen to what the Arabs said before the war of independance to what they would do to the Jews, and how they then invaded to accomplish those aims. The intent was clear - kill the Jews were you find them, push them into the sea. While some had more moderate territorial ambitions, there is little doubt that had the Arab armies met a lesser foe, they would have killed the vast majority of Jews in Israel.

Lets rehash. You say; The vast majority of Arabs fled their homes. The Arab supremacists attempted genocide so the Jews committed violence in return and the Arabs hate the Jews because Jews are peaceful, and too weak to really dominate.

But you do dominate. You're not living in refugee camps.

When you appear to believe your security and comfort to be more important than another's, it sounds really silly for you to call them supremacists. See what I'm saying?

The Palestinian Arabs live in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan, but those are ruled by Arabs. In Israel and the territories, the terms "refugee camp" is a joke, they are cities. Israel doesn't dominate, it survives. This conflict is not Palestinian-Arab/Israeli - it is Arab-Persian/Israeli.

Meanwhile, the Arabs have immense political power via oil. Hence the shameful political history of the UN, where one standard is used on Israel, whereas the Arab nations, who refuse to recognize a Charter member (in violation of the Charter) and support terrorism against that charter member (not to mention what they do to their own populations) are not mentioned.

The Palestinians could have had security and comfort many times. No invasion in 1948 - no refugees. Accept one of the various peace deals, then the Pal Arabs would have security and national rights (although Jordan, majority palestinian Arab and with a Pal Arab queen, and 78% of the Palestine mandate, as King Hussein said, "is Palestine.")

What you seem to do is to put maximalist territorial demands of Arabs ahead of the security of Jews.

When you said, "You notice that lots of other far larger groups have committed much worse actions" - to which actions were you referring? Much worse than what?

Israel certainly has been very tough in a tough neighborhood, and the Pal Arabs have suffered. But Israel has not attempted to wipe out the Pal Arabs - consider that fewer Pal Arabs have died from israeli hands in 6 years of war , than the number of Arabs who appear to die in ONE MONTH in Iraq right now, from other Arab hands - at least using the larger estimates.

Are you telling me that you are not aware of other nations/groups committing far greater acts of violence with far lesser justification over the past 50 years? If so, you need to do a lot of reading.


(by the way, Americans are not innocents, this is so and we criticize ourselves/government)[/QUOTE]

[Reffo]

Sorry, item posted in the wrong thread...

[craon]

Let me try to bridge the gap between your two positions:

The Israeli strategy must be the same as the Pal Arab strategy. That is, not so much to "engage" the Palestinians (although that should be done too, but as a different front on this war), but, instead, to do EXACTLY AS THEY DO.

Have short, pre-prepared answers to "occupation, occupation, occupation." Namely "Jihadism, Jihadism, Jihadism." And then do the above counter argument, each time, simply. Touch on the history when necessary - know it like the back of the hand for when it is necessary - but, in general, answer back in the same repetitive and simplistic narrative that the Pal Arabs use on Israel.

This is the most ridiculous idea I've heard lately,comparing the concept of occuppation with all what this entails of inhumanity and destruction with "JIHAD" wich is the arab equivalent of resistance,leans towards complete stupidity,but somehow,I agree with you,to your occupation and crime the palestinians are responding with resistance and resolve,so it is only natural that you shout at them you are resistants when they call you,occupiers.

[Mediocrates]

Kill more white people. For Peace and Allah and Justice and Freedom.

[MGB8]

This is the most ridiculous idea I've heard lately,comparing the concept of occuppation with all what this entails of inhumanity and destruction with "JIHAD" wich is the arab equivalent of resistance,leans towards complete stupidity,but somehow,I agree with you,to your occupation and crime the palestinians are responding with resistance and resolve,so it is only natural that you shout at them you are resistants when they call you,occupiers.

Let me summarize your post for you.

What, jihadism, jihadism, jihadism? No! OCCUPATION, OCCUPATION, OCCUPATION!!!!

Feel better?

Meanwhile, the only way occupation even exists as a realistic concept is in an Arab-supremacist mindset where every grain of sand in the middle east is magically and genetically belonging to only Arab Muslims, Jews have no national rights and are to be happy being dhimmis, and Arabs (and their Mullah copycats) should suffer no consequences for their numerous Imperialist and supremacist inspired attempts to committ genocide on the Jews.

Oh, and there would be no occupation if they hadn't invaded in 48, declared war in 67, or accepted Camp David or Taba. Heck, things would be far better in Gaza if they stopped trying to mass murder Jews in Sderot, Ashkelon, and the Negev Kibbutzim... But why let little things like facts get in the way.

So, no, Crayon... JIHADISM, JIHADISM, JIHADISM.

[MGB8]

Kill more white people. For Peace and Allah and Justice and Freedom.

They don't have to be white, so long as they are not Arab (or the right kind of Arab, or Muslim, or the right kind of Muslim....

[Reffo]

Top of the mornin' to ya Craon.....and how is your Jihad going lately? How come you have time to waste here with us Semites? Haven't you got your own Jihad to fight?