Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Genuine Religious Jews

  1. #1
    intenseGaze
    Guest

    Genuine Religious Jews

    Genuine Religious Jews

    The Hebrew version of this essay is to be found on the following URL: http://tinyurl.com/yfnud6

    Jews inspired by genuine Divine afflatus do not engage overmuch in ceremonies, nor do they speak in clichés, quoting others verbatim by rote.

    They are not overly punctilious and scrupulous about ritual purity and they do not carry out formulaic actions obsessively-compulsively.

    They do not care a whit about their own salvation and nothing they do is for the sake of ensuring an eternal place of rest and joy for themselves.

    They act in, rather than speak, of love.

    They do not wax pontifical or esoteric. They concern themselves with the needs of human beings qua human beings.

    They do not sacrifice the material levels of our beings for the sake of the "spiritual" levels.

    They do not profit from the encouraging and teaching of others to observe ritual.

    They do not claim immaculate morality on the part of their teachers; neither do they claim that they their tradition or their teachers are infallible.

    They do not set themselves up and judge and jury over humankind.

    The only abomination they recognize is injustice and the misuse of power.

    They need no social acceptance or group to be part to know what they should do or give them a sense of identity. They are strong enough to stand alone, all alone, if need be.

    Their every action, the very purpose of their lives and their entire being is given over to the alleviation of the suffering of humankind.

    Injustice is intolerable to them and they fight for justice for all no matter what the personal price they must pay for it.

    Gustav Landauer, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Saul Alinsky, Martin Buber and Murray Bookchin were religious Jews. They carried within them the whole of Torah. The received and passed on the torch of the Prophets of Israel. This was true despite the protestations of some of them that they were atheists. It is recorded of Emma Goldman, the self-professed atheist Anarchist, that: "A rabbi who heard her lecture a large conference of clergymen on atheism probably came closer than the public to understanding her antireligious stand. "In spite of al Miss Goldman has said against religion", he announced, "she is the most religious person I know." (RED EMMA SPEAKS, An Emma Goldman Reader, Compiled and Edited by Alix Kates Shulman, Preface to Part Two; Published 1998 by Humanity Books, an imprint of Prometheus Books)

    It is certainly be true that some Jews who adhere to the minutiae of Jewish Law may be true Orthodox Jews, but this is true if and only if they do so in addition to devoting their entire lives to the amelioration of the human condition and the alleviation of human suffering. Their performance of the minutiae of Jewish Law is not that which defines them at genuine Orthodox Jews. That is a mere appurtenance. Their devotion to justice is that which defines them as genuine Orthodox Jews.

    Those who teach Jewish Law in such a way that it comes in lieu of acting in the world for the betterment of human kind; if it obviates doing so; if it becomes so all-demanding, time-consuming and burdensome that there is no strength or time for fighting injustice; if the observance of Jewish Law imparts the illusion of being absolutely right and just; if it attenuates the desire to right wrongs or puts off the doing so for the Mashiach to take care of; if it brings one to believe that each of us has only to tend to our own imperfections – then we may be entirely sure that what we have is not Judaism at all, but an ersatz, painstakingly deliberately fabricated and purposefully promulgated in order to confound us, to keep our energies invested in that which will avail nothing and deflect us from our duties by nefarious interests.

    A great deal of money, ink and blood is being poured in order to keep Jews distracted from our true purpose and our true values. This is as true of the religious segments of our society as it is of the secular segments. The only difference is the methods being employed in order to dissipate our energies.

    History has proven that Jews who are devoted to justice en masse are invincible. It is then that HaShem performs miracles for us.

    Every effort is being made, in the religious and secular worlds alike, to prevent us from knowing who we truly are, what our purpose in creation is, from mobilizing in unison, reaching a critical mass of power and changing the course of the world. We can do it. We have done so before. If we were not capable of changing the world, so much investment would not be being invested in atomizing us and reducing our strength.

    Do not be fooled. Do not be misled. Do not be bought. Do not be enthralled. Do not be enticed. Do not be led astray.

    We Jews were put here for the sake of participating in the creation of a just world with every other and for every other sentient being.

    Let nothing, but nothing, be it pseudo-religious principles or iPods and other things that go beep in the night steer you away from what you are and what you designated tasks are.

    Doreen Ellen Bell-Dotan, Tzfat, Israel
    DoreenDotan@gmail.com
    Last edited by intenseGaze; 12-10-2006 at 03:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Givatayim, Israel
    Posts
    2,416
    Quote Originally Posted by intenseGaze View Post
    It is recorded of Emma Goldman, the self-professed atheist Anarchist, that: "A rabbi who heard her lecture a large conference of clergymen on atheism probably came closer than the public to understanding her antireligious stand. "In spite of al Miss Goldman has said against religion", he announced, "she is the most religious person I know." (RED EMMA SPEAKS, An Emma Goldman Reader, Compiled and Edited by Alex Kates Shulman, Preface to Part Two; Published 1998 by Humanity Books, an imprint of Prometheus Books)
    I strongly suspect that the rabbi meant it in a different way than you think he did. Notice that he did not say "the most righteous person" or "the most religious Jew", but only "the most religious person". This, to me, could well refer to the fact that miss Goldman treated her ideology in the way the religious fanatics treat their faith- with blind, unquestioning acceptance and devotion.

    You are making a lot of claims with little backing, Doreen, and my impression is that you are simply substituting the true essense of the Jewish faith for something more modern and fashionable, while trying to keep the name.
    “This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognizing or admitting it.”

    Khaled Mashaal, Hamas leader

  3. #3
    intenseGaze
    Guest
    I strongly suspect that the rabbi meant it in a different way than you think he did. Notice that he did not say "the most righteous person" or "the most religious Jew", but only "the most religious person". This, to me, could well refer to the fact that miss Goldman treated her ideology in the way the religious fanatics treat their faith- with blind, unquestioning acceptance and devotion.
    Your conclusion is not logical, Womble. If the comment issued from someone who is not religious; your interpretaton would be entirely possible.

    Coming, as it did, from a rabbi, who would not equate being religious with being fanatic, but rather with being as one should be, the conclusion is wholly illogical.

    I suggest you study the rudiments of logic. Any number of your responses have been non sequitur.
    Last edited by intenseGaze; 12-05-2006 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616
    I would suggest you study the basics of religion. Having a feeling or a spiritual sense of things is not the same thing.

  5. #5
    intenseGaze
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    I would suggest you study the basics of religion. Having a feeling or a spiritual sense of things is not the same thing.
    Mediocrates,

    I spent some twenty years of my life studying, and living, nothing but - that was after completing an MA in Philosophy at the age of 20.

    I had the courage and honesty to come from a secular background and a secular education to learn Torah. I had the courage to accept what was evidently true and right to me. I had the courage to reject that which is clearly nonsense and that which simply does not serve the betterment of humankind.

  6. #6
    Mira
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by intenseGaze View Post
    Mediocrates,

    I spent some twenty years of my life studying, and living, nothing but - that was after completing an MA in Philosophy at the age of 20.

    I had the courage and honesty to come from a secular background and a secular education to learn Torah. I had the courage to accept what was evidently true and right to me. I had the courage to reject that which is clearly nonsense and that which simply does not serve the betterment of humankind.
    You have the courage to spend your time lying on an Internet chat forum. In another thread you said that you were taught as a girl to change your clothes underneath your sheets from Chabad (something that is not taught by Chabad) and now your are talking about how courageous you are for coming from a secular background and education to learn Torah. The time span in between these posts has been at most a week, which means you aren't even good enough to keep track of your own nonsense. My advice to you after reading your posts and a bit of your blog is to have the courage to check yourself into a hospital.

  7. #7
    Jorge
    Guest
    There are many points in Doreen’s Post #1, a remarkable one if I may say so, that merit comment. I’d like to start with the one below because it looks to me as the crux of the matter; describing the ‘genuine religious Jews’ she writes:

    Their every action, the very purpose of their lives and their entire being is given over to the alleviation of the suffering of humankind.
    This ought to be contrasted with the words of the Shemah, which starts another demand from our ‘entire beings’:

    And thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy might.

    Is the love of the Lord realized only through alleviating the suffering of humankind? and…What if it is not? These are perplexing questions, and I’m hesitant even about how to start answering them.

    There is certainly a difference between both: the Shemah is binding for a religious Jew, the first, however noble, is not. The praxis of the love might be inferred in many different ways, only one of which is to work to alleviate mankind’s sufferings.

    Some enlightening could be obtained from the following lines of the Shemah:

    And these words which I command thee this day shall be upon thy heart…

    Which words are those? There seems to be consensus in our Sages that ‘the words’ are those of the Torah. Primarily then the demand to love Our Lord must be carried out by accepting the yoke of the Torah. I do not see any inherent contradiction between accepting that yoke and working to alleviate mankind’s sufferings, but in my humble opinion, and I stress the ‘humble’, in order to remain within Jewish Religion, it cannot come instead of.

    I would say tentatively (tentatively because it’s difficult to be sure about what another person really means) that Doreen is mixing ideas and concepts from different spheres, Ethics and Religion, in this matter of “alleviating the suffering of humankind”. Not that I think that is wrong for a person to think and act according to both; a person may, so to speak, stand with one leg on Religion and the other in Philosophy but one has to be extremely careful to do the balancing act properly.

    To love the Lord is a religious imperative, to alleviate the suffering of mankind is an ethical one. If a person perceives no contradiction and one entails the other, no problem. But what for those that do not see it that way? Which is higher in the sense that it deserves our primary allegiance? Within Jewish orthodoxy the religious imperative comes first; if one cannot conciliate the two, the worse for Ethics.

    For Doreen what makes an orthodox Jew ‘genuine’ is devotion to justice:

    Their performance of the minutiae of Jewish Law is not that which defines them at genuine Orthodox Jews. That is a mere appurtenance. Their devotion to justice is that which defines them as genuine Orthodox Jews.

    But she, I think, is implying a concept of justice from secular Ethics, which might sometimes not be in line with the religious idea of justice. In much the same way that a Jew cannot (or rather should not) say that a certain ethical principle is false because it does not agree with the Torah, neither can a philosopher say that a certain attitude is not genuinely religious because it does not agree with his preferred ethics. To me it looks like that old controversy, now largely superseded, between Science and Religion that did upset so many people. If we keep in mind that religious and ethical imperatives do not need to coincide, the better for our balancing act.

  8. #8
    intenseGaze
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    You have the courage to spend your time lying on an Internet chat forum. In another thread you said that you were taught as a girl to change your clothes underneath your sheets from Chabad (something that is not taught by Chabad) and now your are talking about how courageous you are for coming from a secular background and education to learn Torah. The time span in between these posts has been at most a week, which means you aren't even good enough to keep track of your own nonsense. My advice to you after reading your posts and a bit of your blog is to have the courage to check yourself into a hospital.
    You must be terribly afraid of the truths I'm making you face.

    I grew up in Crown Heights, but I never said I was from a Chaba"d family. Why did you presume that? Why did you presume at what age I was taught by Chaba"d?

    I began to learn with Chaba"d when I was doing my MA at McGill University in Montreal. I learned with Rabbi Zushe Silberstein.

    When I completed the MA; I learned with Rabbis Feller and Manus Friedman in Minnesota. It was there that one of the girls from Crown Heights who was a madrikhah told me about dressing and undressing that way.

    By all means, feel free to contact them and tell them that Doreen Bell has no character and lies. They could use a good belly laugh.

  9. #9
    intenseGaze
    Guest
    I wrote: Their every action, the very purpose of their lives and their entire being is given over to the alleviation of the suffering of humankind.
    Jorge wrote: This ought to be contrasted with the words of the Shemah, which starts another demand from our ‘entire beings’:

    And thou shalt love the Lord Thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul and with all thy might.

    Is the love of the Lord realized only through alleviating the suffering of humankind?
    These are one and the same. Only those who love HaShem with all their heart, with all the Soul and with all their might give their lives over to the alleviation of suffering. I am speaking here of an ongoing sacrifice of one's life to that purpose.

    One can keep kashrut out of a need to belong, keep Shabbat out of fear of what their family and neighbors will say and keep Taharat HaMisphachah out of desire for a place in the world to come... - all without loving HaShem with one's entire being.

    But no one devotes their entire life to humanity, consistently over the period of a lifetime, unless they love HaShem completely and are devoted to HaShem in a way that the Orthodox can only feign being. That devotion need not be conscious, but it is there.

    You say that I have am conflated, that I am making a shatnez of Torah and secular ethics. In fact, there is nothing that I have written that is not pure Torah.

    I agree with you entirely that ideally a Jew should keep the mitzvot and serve humanity. They do not only not contradict; they are supplementary one to the other.

    However, Judaism as it is currently taught and practiced, with all of the chumrot and minhagim that have been added to Torah (in contravention of the injunction not to add to Torah!) does not allow for the performance of both those mitzvot that bring down holiness into the physical plane and the social service aspects of Torah - both of which are essential and should be performed in such a way that they enable and advance one the other.

    The only solution to the problem is to leave this farce that we are told is Torah and build a just society that is not based on greed and violence and power-hungriness. In such a society there will be no incentives for Rabbis who serve the power structure to distort Torah and make it into shackles and manacles that bind the mind, the heart and Soul. In such a society Torah can be rediscovered in its pristine purity because there won't be a power structure that will have interests in making the populace spiritual slaves and moral cripples.

    Torah has been so horribly misrepresented, so grossly misunderstood and so abused as an instrument of mind and behavior control that the only way to return to it is by leaving what we think is Torah, but is not.

  10. #10
    Mira
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by intenseGaze View Post
    You must be terribly afraid of the truths I'm making you face.

    I grew up in Crown Heights, but I never said I was from a Chaba"d family. Why did you presume that? Why did you presume at what age I was taught by Chaba"d?

    I began to learn with Chaba"d when I was doing my MA at McGill University in Montreal. I learned with Rabbi Zushe Silberstein.

    When I completed the MA; I learned with Rabbis Feller and Manus Friedman in Minnesota. It was there that one of the girls from Crown Heights who was a madrikhah told me about dressing and undressing that way.

    By all means, feel free to contact them and tell them that Doreen Bell has no character and lies. They could use a good belly laugh.
    You forgot to mention the part where you ran away from the circus.

  11. #11
    intenseGaze
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    You forgot to mention the part where you ran away from the circus.
    Perhaps I've been entirely wrong, Mira.

    Perhaps if I were to practice Judaism as you do I would become more gentle, soft spoking, loving, able to handle adverse positions with grace, answer them rationally and honest with myself as you are.

    Keep writing, Mira, please. You contribute more to convincing people that your way leads to nothing but degradation of defilement of the Soul than anything I could possibly write.

    To paraphrase an old saying: Since you are not a good example of what a Jew should be, please continue to be a terrible warning of what Jews who walk in your way can expect to become.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616
    What you describe is more or less the golden rule. Be nice to others, kind and compassionate. Ok but that's not uniquely Jewish or anything else. If Morgan Freeman were God he'd tell us; "Be respectful of one another, be merciful, don't kill anyone...."

    If observance is nothing, than what is faith?

  13. #13
    intenseGaze
    Guest
    What you describe is more or less the golden rule. Be nice to others, kind and compassionate. Ok but that's not uniquely Jewish or anything else. If Morgan Freeman were God he'd tell us; "Be respectful of one another, be merciful, don't kill anyone...."
    That is the basis necessary in order to begin to walk in the way of Torah. We have yet to attain, or, more correctly, recover, that level.

    Let's acquire some basic menschlichkeit and economic equality - only then can we move on.

    Only when we have a society whose only interest is the common welfare and advancement of all can there be Torah.

    If observance is nothing, than what is faith?
    I did not say that observance is nothing, it is critical. The problem is there is no true observance today. Our "faith" is nothing but illusion for the well-intentioned and a cynical business for the nefarious.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616
    The old conundrum in the Talmud is 'which is more important, belief or practice; knowledge or faith?'

    On the one hand if you don't 'know' anything you can't really be observant but on the other hand if you don't 'believe' anything then where does it leave. I think the accepted sense of it is that one must be faith-full first in order to have the capacity for knowledge and then practice will follow.

  15. #15
    Mira
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by intenseGaze View Post
    Perhaps I've been entirely wrong, Mira.

    Perhaps if I were to practice Judaism as you do I would become more gentle, soft spoking, loving, able to handle adverse positions with grace, answer them rationally and honest with myself as you are.

    Keep writing, Mira, please. You contribute more to convincing people that your way leads to nothing but degradation of defilement of the Soul than anything I could possibly write.

    To paraphrase an old saying: Since you are not a good example of what a Jew should be, please continue to be a terrible warning of what Jews who walk in your way can expect to become.
    What kind of Judaism is it that I practice, Doreen? You're confused. It's not the Jew in me that finds your rants unimpressive, it's the American....or maybe it's just that time of month. You know how we women are.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. "Anti-Zionists. But We Have Nothing Against the Jews as Such"
    By abu afak in forum Tackling Anti-Semitism
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-25-2007, 12:48 PM
  2. Replies: 190
    Last Post: 07-26-2006, 05:15 PM
  3. Are any of you Jews?
    By Communication in forum War In Iraq
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 03-28-2006, 05:08 PM
  4. Subjugate Christians, Exterminate Jews
    By savvy in forum In The News
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-05-2005, 02:34 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •