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Thread: Hamas scum killing Fatah members children

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by craon
    OOOOOOH,the hypocresy,you slaughtered thousands of them,kidnapped hundreds(who are,btw,still rotting in your"dungeons")and now as a last offence to these children and their slayed counterparts,you'are spraying a croccodile tear over their loss.A word comes to mind,Pityfull.
    OOOOOOH craon, and the likes of you wouldn't know anything about hypocrisy would ya?
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  2. #17
    psyops
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanchan View Post
    I agree with you completely. Was your outlook prevalant amongst your fellow comrades in the armed forces in the states? I always found there to be a tendency in armed forces to become overly nationalistic, thus often I would here "I prefer an innocent person from nationality x to die, than an innocent person from nationality y". Personally, such a thinking I find problematic, despite the fact that many don't. Thus, I was wondering if how you think is the norm, or the exception in the US army?
    Osama bin Laden's fellow travelers certainly felt nothing approaching the nationalism of the average IDF or American armed forces grunt. So you'd feel more comfortable cozying up with them?

  3. #18
    tzanchan
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    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle View Post
    The example you made up has got nothing to do with nationalism. Nor does having a special love and appreciation for one's homeland, country, culture, history, and identity has anything to do with what ForceRecon was talking about.
    The question was posed to forcerecon "which would you prefer", innocent Israelis or innocent gazians. He responded justly that he prefers neither. Nationalists on the other hand tend to show a preference. Nationalists are much more likely to sacrifice innocents on the other side, in order to save innocents from their own nation. This "special love" you mention also creates preference. Nationalism throughout history has as a result caused great conflicts, as well as 'preferences' in killing innocents of nation x over innocents of nation y.

  4. #19
    tzanchan
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyops View Post
    Osama bin Laden's fellow travelers certainly felt nothing approaching the nationalism of the average IDF or American armed forces grunt. So you'd feel more comfortable cozying up with them?
    Non sequitur. How does it follow from the fact that I am anti-excessive nationalism---> that I prefer everything else (i.e. Osama bin laden's fellow travelers).

    I also dont like lazy people. Can you make the comment that I thus prefer "Osama bin Laden's fellow travelers" because they have nothing close to the laziness of the average american?

  5. #20
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
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    Hamas and Fatah kiss and make up, vow never again to hurt each other....
    ...no I'm only kidding, Hamas group has accused a key figure in the rival Fatah faction of trying to assassinate Prime Minister Ismail Haniya as he returned to Gaza.
    As a youth I used to weep in butcher's shops.

  6. #21
    KettleWhistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanchan View Post
    The question was posed to forcerecon "which would you prefer", innocent Israelis or innocent gazians. He responded justly that he prefers neither.
    Again, that got nothing to do with nationalism.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
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    "We did not join this movement to become minister but rather to become martyrs " - Ismail Haniya Palestinian Prime Minister

    Cool, so no hefty pension plans for them then.
    As a youth I used to weep in butcher's shops.

  8. #23
    psyops
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanchan View Post
    The question was posed to forcerecon "which would you prefer", innocent Israelis or innocent gazians. He responded justly that he prefers neither. Nationalists on the other hand tend to show a preference. Nationalists are much more likely to sacrifice innocents on the other side, in order to save innocents from their own nation. This "special love" you mention also creates preference. Nationalism throughout history has as a result caused great conflicts, as well as 'preferences' in killing innocents of nation x over innocents of nation y.

    Do you speak from your own experience at the front line of an armed conflict, or is this simply anecdotal?

    Sorry for my cynicism, but our campuses are full of Marxists who hackney the anti-nationalism argument to support everything from illegal immigration to cutting off aide for Israel.

    BTW In my heart of hearts I appreciate Einstein’s sentiment in your signature line: "....negotiate with the Arabs". On the other hand, I'm reminded that he spent the last half of his life trying to refute the legitimacy of quantum physics. It just goes to show that even history's most brilliant minds can be stupefyingly wrong sometimes.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanchan View Post
    Of course it does. Nationalists tend to care more about the 'love of their own' than the love of others.

    As opposed to what? Ideological Marxists or 'Islamists' who identify with nation killing belief systems independent of the nationhood of any particular state? That's a biased and artificially self serving distinction to make, to me at least.

  10. #25
    tzanchan
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    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle View Post
    Again, that got nothing to do with nationalism.
    But it frequently goes hand in hand. German nationalism was also supposed to be only a "special love of homeland, german culture, etc" but it easily leads to hatred of the other, despite the fact that it is not included in your definition. This is also not a unique case. Nationalists tend to care more about their own than the other at the least, and in the extreme form an antipathy to the other.

  11. #26
    tzanchan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    As opposed to what? Ideological Marxists or 'Islamists' who identify with nation killing belief systems independent of the nationhood of any particular state? That's a biased and artificially self serving distinction to make, to me at least.
    Islamists, despite their claim of anti-nationalism, developed their extremism historically in a way parallel to extremist nationalism. The umma is at the base of it Islamic nationalism, where they emphasize their love of their Islamic nation. This does not per se that they will hate the other outside of this nation, but historically this was so. Ideological Marxism is a utopia that never came to be. Despite the flaws in their ideology, I dont think that thier egalitarian view of nation was one.

  12. #27
    tzanchan
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyops View Post
    Do you speak from your own experience at the front line of an armed conflict, or is this simply anecdotal? .
    Experience at the front line of an armed conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by psyops View Post
    Sorry for my cynicism, but our campuses are full of Marxists who hackney the anti-nationalism argument to support everything from illegal immigration to cutting off aide for Israel.

    BTW In my heart of hearts I appreciate Einstein’s sentiment in your signature line: "....negotiate with the Arabs". On the other hand, I'm reminded that he spent the last half of his life trying to refute the legitimacy of quantum physics. It just goes to show that even history's most brilliant minds can be stupefyingly wrong sometimes.

    As for as einstein- himself an anti-nationalist zionist-- the fact that he was wrong in quantum physics (an understandable error) does not mean that we should take the rest of his views with a grain of salt. There was a time when a large portion of the world thought that the earth was the center of the universe. That doesnt mean we should ignore the advice of every person in the 1400s except for Copernicus and his small group of followers. Quantum physics is in itself an unbelievable notion, particularly before it was accepted scientifically (like the heliocentric universe). To not value the words of einstein because of his skepticism with regard to this extraordinary science is an extremely bodacious step.

  13. #28
    psyops
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanchan View Post
    Experience at the front line of an armed conflict.




    As for as einstein- himself an anti-nationalist zionist-- the fact that he was wrong in quantum physics (an understandable error) does not mean that we should take the rest of his views with a grain of salt. There was a time when a large portion of the world thought that the earth was the center of the universe. That doesnt mean we should ignore the advice of every person in the 1400s except for Copernicus and his small group of followers. Quantum physics is in itself an unbelievable notion, particularly before it was accepted scientifically (like the heliocentric universe). To not value the words of einstein because of his skepticism with regard to this extraordinary science is an extremely bodacious step.
    Let's get down to cases here. Do you honestly believe the Arabs could ever be negotiated with unless it was after the pall of mushroom clouds hanging over their cities?

  14. #29
    KettleWhistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by tzanchan View Post
    But it frequently goes hand in hand. German nationalism was also supposed to be only a "special love of homeland, german culture, etc" but it easily leads to hatred of the other, despite the fact that it is not included in your definition. This is also not a unique case. Nationalists tend to care more about their own than the other at the least, and in the extreme form an antipathy to the other.
    As usual you build strawmen out of extreme exaggerations. No, loving your own, does mean you hate others. There is no relationship between the two.

  15. #30
    tzanchan
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    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle View Post
    As usual you build strawmen out of extreme exaggerations. No, loving your own, does mean you hate others. There is no relationship between the two.
    Bosnia, Chechnya, Kosovo, and Kurdistan , yususlovian, greek-turkish wars, Abkhazia etc, etc. In the great majority of world conflicts, if religion is not the cause then nationalism is. Of course, all of these are also just 'exagerrations'... Just like Islam using violence is just an exaggeration, there is no relationship between the two...

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