Satmar Hassidim slam Neturei Karta over Iran

[rabkin]

Your recent article on the Jewish anti-Zionists' visit to Iran shows well the outrage it provoked around the world. This kind of opposition to Zionism, and to the very existence of the State of Israel, refuses to vanish in spite of Israel's economic and military successes. My recent book explains the reasons behind this troubling phenomenon. It is titled "A Threat from Within: A Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism" (Zed Books, 2006). A blurb from an Israeli academic on the back cover says that “this book sheds light on the most serious threat to Israel as a State and as a collective identity; in fact, it is more grievous and dangerous challenge than Arab and Palestinian hostility”. The events your report suggest that this is hardly an exaggeration.

Yakov M Rabkin
Professor of History
University of Montreal

[Yala]

Your recent article on the Jewish anti-Zionists' visit to Iran shows well the outrage it provoked around the world. This kind of opposition to Zionism, and to the very existence of the State of Israel, refuses to vanish in spite of Israel's economic and military successes. My recent book explains the reasons behind this troubling phenomenon. It is titled "A Threat from Within: A Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism" (Zed Books, 2006). A blurb from an Israeli academic on the back cover says that “this book sheds light on the most serious threat to Israel as a State and as a collective identity; in fact, it is more grievous and dangerous challenge than Arab and Palestinian hostility”. The events your report suggest that this is hardly an exaggeration.

Yakov M Rabkin
Professor of History
University of Montreal

As Jews, we always had garbage within our ranks. The Satmar and Neteuri Karta, which your book seems to focus on from the reviews on Amazon, hardly threaten Israel in any way because we, sane Jews, have no desire to become more like them, who are, for all intents and purposes, extremists and fundamentalists.

So while you came on here to advertise your book, I will not read it b/c I believe it comes to a false conclusion. I assume by the title that you actually think either of the above groups actually threaten Israel and I am shocked by and find that conclusion almost comical.

True, NK hopes to see Israel dismantled, but they are less than 3,000 people spread out in 3 countries, which makes them virtually powerless.

The Satmar and other anti-Zionist Haredi groups in Israel have had a serious change in mindset since this current barbaric intifadah took off. They realized that if the IDF is not there to protect them, the Arabs will tear them to shreds. Remember, a lot of those suicide bombings happened in the heart of their neighborhoods and they are not likely to forget that. Let's also remember that there are increasing # of Haredi recruits to the IDF every year.

So they will happily go on and protest every once in a while the heathen state of Israel does something they disapprove of (like* gasp* permit an airline to fly on Shabbat) but they know that the wolves hiding behind the curtain ready to take over Israel from the Jews, will do a lot worse than that. They may be crazy, but they're not stupid.

[psyops]

Well it does in a way. Haredim divide the world into themselves and apikorsim, even other Jews who they don't believe really are Jews. That's the key distinction between Chabad and others. The Satmars ruined a car that a member of my family used on Shabbat that she was forced to use because she was in a wheelchair. That's inhuman in my book and they justify it as entirely acceptable because anyone who's not them is a goyim mamzer who's not fit to lie with pigs. That's Ultraorthodox.

What manner of sect teaches its voataries to despise all others as something subhuman? I don't care how religious some Jews think of themselves. There is no redemption, no humanity in intransigent beliefs such as these.

[rabkin]

It is truly puzzling how someone would disagree with conclusions of a book he (or she) has not read and does not want to read. In fact, my book explains the phenomenon and lets the reader draw conclusions. It partly draws on the materials of a seminar on anti-Zionist Haredi thought that I attended at a National-Religious institution in Jerusalem. While the phenomenon of Jewish opposition to Zionism often provokes more anger than curiosity, these committed Zionists wanted to understand it. I believe than in matters like this Israelis know better.

[Yala]

It is truly puzzling how someone would disagree with conclusions of a book he (or she) has not read and does not want to read. In fact, my book explains the phenomenon and lets the reader draw conclusions. It partly draws on the materials of a seminar on anti-Zionist Haredi thought that I attended at a National-Religious institution in Jerusalem. While the phenomenon of Jewish opposition to Zionism often provokes more anger than curiosity, these committed Zionists wanted to understand it. I believe than in matters like this Israelis know better.

Perhaps you just wanted to be provocative to sell books like Jimmy Carter, but your title alone boldly states that these particular Jews are a threat to Israel. Please excuse me if I do not feel threatened by the same people (fundamentalists) who marched to their deaths during the Holocaust and told their followers to do the same "b/c it was Hashem's will."

Also, I'm wondering if you devote a chapter in your book to the increased number of Haredi enlistees in the IDF. It is not a coincidence that, for example, the Nahal Haredi unit had 30 soldiers prior to the intifadah and their unit now numbers well over 1,000 soldiers.

My conclusion: Radical Israeli leftists are a lot more of a threat to Israel's existence than the Haredi.

And if "Israelis know better," you should've left it to them to write this book. But of course you, being an anti-Zionist and all who proposes a one state solution (http://www.one-democratic-state.org/...es/rabkin.html) , thought you knew better. Or perhaps it is just a pipe dream of yours that fundamentalist Jews will reclaim Eretz Yisrael from the heathen Zionists.



*Some highlights of your Tikkun article:

"The current intifada ignited sparks of anti-Semitism in many parts of the world, including Western Europe, which had been free of anti-Semitism for several decades. "

Do you seriously believe the above? Could you possibly be that naive?

A 3 second google search for "anti-Semitism Europe 1999" or any similar combination will reveal more than enough reputable sources detailing a plethora of anti-Semitic attacks in Western Europe pre-intifadah. But why let facts get in the way of a good argument?

"Indeed, the chronic character of the Israel/Palestine conflict was an important, albeit not the only, cause of September 11."

Ridiculous argument loved by anti-Semites and parroted by people like you.

"Israel's military operations, particularly against civilians, have embarrassed Jews both in Israel and in the Diaspora for many decades."

I am sure your book and meetings with anti-Semites have embarrassed far more Jews than the state of Israel ever has.

[Womble]

It is truly puzzling how someone would disagree with conclusions of a book he (or she) has not read and does not want to read. In fact, my book explains the phenomenon and lets the reader draw conclusions. It partly draws on the materials of a seminar on anti-Zionist Haredi thought that I attended at a National-Religious institution in Jerusalem. While the phenomenon of Jewish opposition to Zionism often provokes more anger than curiosity, these committed Zionists wanted to understand it. I believe than in matters like this Israelis know better.

I'd say Israelis know enough to not describe the fringe haredi anti-Zionism as a threat of any real significance, let alone as a bigger challenge than the Arab hostility.

[rabkin]

Thank you for bringing up my article that appeared in 2002 in Tikkun. It has an instructive history. The Israeli religious Zionist journal Aqdamoth had invited me to write about one-state solutions. I wrote it in Hebrew in 1998, and Aqdamoth published it in the issue devoted to the 50th anniversary of the State of Israel. It was only later that I rewrote it for Tikkun.

The story of my article shows that many committed Zionists in Israel, even though they all have differing opinions, share a trait that I admire and respect: the ability to discuss contradictory viewpoints calmly, without personal animosity and condemnations. This same trait might well inspire those who seek to defend Israel from well beyond its borders. Unfortunately, the rhetoric heard on this side of the ocean is often a lot angrier than the tenor of debate in Israel itself.

Anger is rarely a good source of wisdom. It is to provide knowledge, rather than fan animosity, that I wrote my history of Jewish opposition to Zionism. The "offending" title "A Threat from Within" was invented for the English translation of my book, which had appeared originally in French as "Au nom de la Torah" (In the Name of Torah). When the behaviour of some of our correligionists angers us, it is always good to read their authoritative sources and see whether they act in accordance with them or, rather, in spite of them. To seek merit in other people is an important Jewish dictum.

[Mil]

I think it's because over-the-ocean Jews are a lot more nationalistic then those in Israel.

[Womble]

I think it's because over-the-ocean Jews are a lot more nationalistic then those in Israel.

If that were the case, they wouldn't still have been over-the-ocean Jews, now would they?

[Mira]

Thank you for bringing up my article that appeared in 2002 in Tikkun. It has an instructive history. The Israeli religious Zionist journal Aqdamoth had invited me to write about one-state solutions. I wrote it in Hebrew in 1998, and Aqdamoth published it in the issue devoted to the 50th anniversary of the State of Israel. It was only later that I rewrote it for Tikkun.

The story of my article shows that many committed Zionists in Israel, even though they all have differing opinions, share a trait that I admire and respect: the ability to discuss contradictory viewpoints calmly, without personal animosity and condemnations. This same trait might well inspire those who seek to defend Israel from well beyond its borders. Unfortunately, the rhetoric heard on this side of the ocean is often a lot angrier than the tenor of debate in Israel itself.

Anger is rarely a good source of wisdom. It is to provide knowledge, rather than fan animosity, that I wrote my history of Jewish opposition to Zionism. The "offending" title "A Threat from Within" was invented for the English translation of my book, which had appeared originally in French as "Au nom de la Torah" (In the Name of Torah). When the behaviour of some of our correligionists angers us, it is always good to read their authoritative sources and see whether they act in accordance with them or, rather, in spite of them. To seek merit in other people is an important Jewish dictum.

I would be much more impressed by you and therefore willing to consider buying your book instead of the myriad of other books on the subject waiting to be purchased if you actually would respond to Yalah's comments.

Thanks in advance.

Mira
Senior Member
Israel Forum

[Womble]

Neturei Karta face Orthodox backlash

Members of the fringe Neturei Karta ultra-Orthodox sect have returned to their various countries to face a hostile reception by other, mainstream Orthodox communities, the New York Jewish Week reported Friday.

The Jewish Week said that "in Manchester, England, Aharon Cohen, another conference attendee, returned home to find his house besieged
by other, mostly Orthodox Jews outraged by his participation in the same gathering," and added that the children of a New York Neturei Karta member who flew to Tehran were "suffering" at school, according to the member's wife.

One rabbi from Austria was reported by the Week to have remained in Tehran, as he fears returning to Austria where he could be charged under Holocaust denial laws. Denying the Holocaust is a crime in Austria . The rabbi is described as being "worried."

The article cites wide-scale condemnation from across the Orthodox community of the Neturei Karta for their embrace of Iranian president Ahmadinejad and participation in a conference to question the Holocaust. In Brooklyn, the Satmar Orthodox group slammed the Neturei Karta.

Similarly, Britain 's Jewish Chronicle reported that Anglo-Jewry has "thrown out" the Neturei Karta from the community.

[Yala]

Thank you for bringing up my article that appeared in 2002 in Tikkun. It has an instructive history. The Israeli religious Zionist journal Aqdamoth had invited me to write about one-state solutions. I wrote it in Hebrew in 1998, and Aqdamoth published it in the issue devoted to the 50th anniversary of the State of Israel. It was only later that I rewrote it for Tikkun.

I wouldn't call it instructive nor productive to take the blame for 9/11 nor to deny that anti-Semitism has existed in Western Europe for centuries and yes, even pre-intifadah, contrary to your claims.

The story of my article shows that many committed Zionists in Israel, even though they all have differing opinions, share a trait that I admire and respect: the ability to discuss contradictory viewpoints calmly, without personal animosity and condemnations. This same trait might well inspire those who seek to defend Israel from well beyond its borders. Unfortunately, the rhetoric heard on this side of the ocean is often a lot angrier than the tenor of debate in Israel itself.

Hmmm, I wonder which group of Israelis you met. Israelis discussing things calmly? That's a first. Something tells me you do not really know many Israelis.

Anger is rarely a good source of wisdom. It is to provide knowledge, rather than fan animosity, that I wrote my history of Jewish opposition to Zionism. The "offending" title "A Threat from Within" was invented for the English translation of my book, which had appeared originally in French as "Au nom de la Torah" (In the Name of Torah). When the behaviour of some of our correligionists angers us, it is always good to read their authoritative sources and see whether they act in accordance with them or, rather, in spite of them. To seek merit in other people is an important Jewish dictum.

Who's angry? Are you angry b/c I posted the factual errors in your article or disagreed with the thesis of your book? Debating the points you raised does not imply that I am angry. Perhaps you were not aware but this is a forum in which intense debates take place, not just a place to advertise books. I have refuted your points with facts, none of which you've addressed.

I have a book recommendation for you (that I will not monetarily benefit from):

"The Wicked Son: Anti-Semitism, Self-Hatred and the Jews" by David Mamet.

[rabkin]

A few days away from the computer have caused a delay in my response. Some of the questions raised in this discussion group have been addressed in two recent interviews I gave to Haaretz and Jerusalem Post:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/r...?itemNo=796902

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter

Once again, please, accept my apology. I obviously underestimated the effort required for participating in this discussion group and have decided to concentrate on writing articles and books instead.

[Yala]

The links didn't work but I'd love to see the comments this guy receives on Jpost.

[Yala]

A few days away from the computer have caused a delay in my response. Some of the questions raised in this discussion group have been addressed in two recent interviews I gave to Haaretz and Jerusalem Post:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/r...?itemNo=796902

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...icle%2FPrinter

Once again, please, accept my apology. I obviously underestimated the effort required for participating in this discussion group and have decided to concentrate on writing articles and books instead.

This Rabkin character has an article on JPost today: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull . It's a watered down version of his usual anti-Zionist rhetoric but if you are interested in incoherent diatribes have a read. I'm happy to note that at this time 100% of the comments are negative.

In some sick people's minds (even some Jews like Rabkin) Israel is the cause of all the world's problems from 9/11 to the Holocaust (yes, Israel has been blamed many times for things that happened prior to her existence).