Justification for F-16 attack in Gaza

[ibrodsky]

Partial list of victims of Palestinian terrorism following Ehud Barak's peace proposal:

Avraham Boaz 71
Yoela Chen 45
Shahada Dadis 30
Anatoly Bakshayev 63
Edward Bakshayev 48
Boris Melikhov 56
Avi Yazdi 25
Aharon Ben Yisrael-Ellis 32
Sarah Hamburger 79
Svetlana Sandler 56
Pinhas Tokatli 81
Moshe Majos Meconen 33
Miri Ohana 45
Yael Ohana 11
Moranne Amit 25
Atala Lipobsky 78
Nehemia Amar 15
Valery Ahmir 59
Galit Arbiv 21
Avraham Fish 65
Aharon Gorov 46
Gad Rejwan 34
Moshe Dayan 46
Tzofia Ya'arit Eliyahu 23
Ya'akov Avraham Eliyahu 7 mos.
Avi Hazan 37
Lidor Ilan 12
Oriah Ilan 1
Avraham Eliahu Nehmad 17
Gafnit Nehmad 32
Liran Nehmad 3
Shaul Nehmad 15
Shlomo Nehmad 40
Shiraz Nehmad 7
Salim Barakat 33
Eli Dahan 53 L
Yosef Habi 52
Devorah Friedman 45
Maharatu Tagana 85
Keren Shatsky 15
Rachel Theler 16
Ahuva Amergi 30
Mor Elraz 25
Amir Mansouri 21
Arik Krogliak 18
Tal Kurtzweil 18
Asher Marcus 18
Eran Picard 18
Ariel Zana 18
Limor Ben-Shoham 27
Nir Borochov 22
Danit Dagan 25
Livnit Dvash 28
Tali Eliyahu 26
Uri Felix 25
Dan Imani 23
Natanel Kochavi 31
Baruch Lerner-Naor 28
Orit Ozerov 28
Avraham Haim Rahamim 29
Avia Malka 9 mos.
Israel Yihye 27
Kobi Eichelboim 21
Yehudit Cohen 33
Ofer Kanerik 44
Alexei Kotman 29
Atara Livne 15
Lynne Livne 49
German Rojyakov 25
Noa Auerbach 18
Michael Altfiro 19
Shimon Edri 20
Meir Fahima 40
Alon Goldenberg 28
Mogus Mahento 75
Aharon Revivo 19
Bella Schneider 53
Yitzhak Cohen 48
Gad Shemesh 34
Tzipi Shemesh 29
Esther Klieman 23
Avi Sabag 24
Shula Abramovitch 63
David Anichovitch 70
Avraham Beckerman 25
Shimon Ben-Aroya 42
Alter Britvich 88
Frieda Britvich 86
Andre Fried 47
Idit Fried 47
Miriam Gutenzgan 82
Amiran Hamami 44
Perla Hermele 79
Dvora Karim 73
Michael Karim 78
Eliezer Korman 74
Yehudit Korman 70
Sarah Levy-Hoffman 89
Lola Levkovitch 70
Eliahu Nakash 85
Furuk Na'imi 62
Irit Rashel 45
Chanah Rogan 90
Yulia Talmi 87
Sivan Vider 20
Ze'ev Vider 50
Eva Weiss 75
Ernest Weiss 80
Anna Yakobovitch 78
George Yakobovitch 76
Marianne Lehmann Zaoui 77
Avraham Gavish 25
Rachel Gavish 50
David Gavish 50
Yitzhak Kanner 83
Rachel Levy 17
Haim Smadar 55
Michael Orlansky 70
Tuvia Wisner 79
Rachel Charhi 36
Suheil Adawi 32
Dov Chernevroda 67
Gal Koren 15
Ran Koren 18
Shimon Koren 55
Moshe Levin 52
Orly Ofir 16
Aviel Ron 54
Ofer Ron 18
Anat Ron 21
Ya'akov Shani 53
Adi Shiran 17
Daniel Wegman 50
Carlos Yerushalmi 52
Avinoam Alfia 26
Nir Danieli 24
Keren Franco 18
Shlomi Ben Haim 27
Ze'ev Hanik 24
Noa Shlomo 18
Shimshon Stelkol 33
Michael Weissman 21
Nissan Cohen 57
Rivka Fink 75
Suhelia Hushi 48
Yelena Konrab 43
Ling Chang Mai 34
Chai Siang Yang 32
Arik Becker 22
Katrina Greenberg 45
Ya'acov Katz 51
Danielle Shefi 5
Esther Bablar 54
Yitzhak Bablar 57
Avi Bayaz 26
Regina Malka Boslan 62
Edna Cohen 61
Rafael Haim 64
Pnina Hikri 60
Nawa Hinawi 51
Rahamim Kimhi 58
Nir Lovatin 31
Shoshana Magmari 51
Dalia Masa 56
Rassan Sharouk 60
Israel Shikar 49
Anat Teremforush 36
Yosef Haviv 70
Victor Tatrinov 63
Arkady Vieselman 39
Elmar Dezhabrielov 16
Gary Tauzniaski 65
Sinai Keinan 14 mos.
Ruth Peled 56
Albert Maloul 50
Netanel Riachi 17
Avraham Siton 17
Zvi Gelberd 20
Zion Agmon 50
Liron Avitan 19
Avraham Barzilai 19
Dennis Bleuman 20
Eliran Buskila 21
Adi Dahan 17
Violetta Hizgayev 20
Ganadi Issakov 21
Sariel Katz 21
Vladimir Morari 19
Yigal Nedipur 21
Dotan Reisel 22
David Stanislavsky 23
Shimon Timsit 35
Sivan Wiener 19
Erez Rund 18
Shalom Mordechai 35
Eyal Sorek 23
Yael Sorek 24
Hadar Hershkowitz 14
Boaz Aluf 54
Shani Avi Zedek 15
Leah Baruch 59
Mendel Bereson 72
Rafael Berger 28
Michal Biazi 24
Tatiana Braslavsky 41
Galila Bugala 11
Raisa Dikstein 67
Moshe Gottlieb 70
Baruch Gruani 60
Orit Hayla 21
Iman Kabha 26
Helena Ivan 63
Shiri Nagari 21
Gila Nakav 55
Yelena Plagov 42
Liat Yagen 24
Rahamim Zidkiyahu 51
Noa Alon 60
Gal Eisenman 5
Michal Franklin 22
Tatiana Igelski 43
Hadassah Jungreis 20
Gila Sara Kessler 19
Shmuel Yerushalmi 17
Avishai Shabo 5
Neria Shabo 16
Rachel Shabo 40
Zvika Shabo 13
Yosef Twito 31

[tirpitz]

yes, the attack in gaza was indeed justified, and is legal under international law. the israelis need not apologize for a strike against a wanted terrorist, especially when they asked the PA repeatedly to arrest shehada. when fatah and hamas apologize for all the innocent women, children, and infants their suicide bombers killed then we'll talk. but then again they won't apologize as innocent civilians have always been their targets. if the palestinians want to blame anyone for all the innocent people who died in gaza, they should lash out at hamas. but then again, arab terrorists hiding behind their wives and children is nothing new

[cerulean]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...ubContrassID=0
...
Ben-Eliezer: Slain Hamas leader was preparing 'mega attack'
Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer said Thursday that the slain Hamas military commander Salah was in the midst of preparing "a mega terror attack."

Speaking at a meeting at the Labor Party's central headquarters in Beit Berl, Ben-Eliezer said that Shehada planned to infiltrate one ton of explosives into Israel "which could shock the whole nation or kill hundreds."

Ben-Eliezer said that he postponed the assassination operation eight times during the past two months, including last Friday. "The plane was already in the air but we got word that his daughter was with him and the operation was once again postponed. We received information two days ago that he was alone with two other murderers," Ben-Eliezer said.

The defense minister said "I do not take the deaths of children lightly. We are a people who do all they can to try to prevent the deaths of children and women, but when you are in the midst of a complicated war, there can be mistakes, which we will learn from."
...
====
Similarly:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1027506351347

[Tan]

What is there to be apologetic abt?

Under International law,any civilian structures with millitary personal and millitary installation is a legitimate millitary target. There is no need for Israel to said sorry in this case. It just to bad for the civilian.

[cerulean]

After so much waffling about Palestinian terrorism, the State Department has now issued an alert (as of July 24) for American citizens in response to Hamas' threat to "avenge" Shehada.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Jul24.html

Quote:
Personal travel by U.S. employees and their families to Gaza and the West Bank is prohibited, the statement said, and various malls in Jerusalem – another target of Hamas and other terror groups – are off-limits to American officials.

"In this period of heightened tension it will be particularly important to educe exposure to risk," the notice said.

If the State Department recognizes these areas are too risky for Americans, why doesn't it take a harder line on Palestinian terrorism?

[tandem]

Originally posted by cerulean
If the State Department recognizes these areas are too risky for Americans, why doesn't it take a harder line on Palestinian terrorism?

i dont think there's anything else the state dept can do with regards to palestinian terror. the bush administration already cut all ties with the palestinian authority. the US made clear, including earlier today at the security council meeting, that israel's security must be addressed first for it to be peace in the region, and the fact that the bush administration never really criticized israel for the re-occupation of the west bank clearly shows the PA where america stands

[ibrodsky]

One way in which the Bush administration has supported Israel is in what it doesn't say. They called the F-16 attack that killed Shehada "heavy handed" because it killed more than one dozen others. But this criticism implies that it was correct to kill Shehada.

There is no call by the Bush admin, at present, for Israel to leave the territories.

There is a call for the PA to "reform." There is no criticism whatsoever of Israel's basic institutions or even its elected leaders.

The US is willing to support a UN resolution condemning the F-16 attack if that resolution also condemns Hamas, etc. by name. The fact that this is an obstacle to Israel's Arab enemies shows what total hypocrites they are. Really, these evil people support Arab terrorism.

[sharonbn]

Going after a known terrorist is one thing.
Dropping 1 ton bomb on a densly populated area, killing 10 children incl. 2 babies for the purpose of killing one person - that is a different situation all together.

regardless of the legal standing of the case, there is also the moral issue. Even if the other side is sending hords of suicudal terrorists and the target is a major figure in a terrorist group, even if he's using civillians as live shield, You just can't ignore all human considearions and send an F-16 to drop 1 ton bomb on the house. If you do this deliberatly then you're a terrorist yourself. There's no justification for killing of civillians and children.

IDF and many Israeli politicians admited that mistakes were made in the planning and executing of the attack.

It relieves me to hear Israeli leadership does not think like some people here that "this operation was justified under int'l law, we don't need to apologize for killing babies and that's it".

The Jewish people is known (or at least was known) worldwide for its high moral standards and high sensitivity to human suffering. This is what differentiates us from the heartless inhuman beasts Palestinian terrorists. Our moral superiority is more important than persuing one terrorists, however vicious and important he may be.

and regarding the first post with the list of Israeli victims of terrorism, I don't think this is justification for killing civillian palestinians (if you count revenge out, I hope you do). For two reasons:
1. Every human life is sacred. a Jewish boy and Palestinian boy should be protected from violence in equal measures.
2. Practically speaking, counting the dead will not be benefitial for Israel, as the Palestinian dead amount to three times moer than Israeli ones.

[Micah]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Our moral superiority is more important than persuing one terrorists, however vicious and important he may be.

Ok, you be morally superior while the guy you would let live goes on and blows up some more Jewish citizens. I'm sure your moral superiority would win the day if you were caught up in the bombing.

[Gilgamesh]

Well said Micha! I subscribe to every word!

[Mediocrates]

Sorry, but the people who decry this are saying the problem with it is that it is not somethine else. It's odd though, almost darkly comical that after this attack we suddenly hear the hue and cry for the 'end to the shooting'. When, not if Hamas retaliates we won't hear it is 'finally time for a truce'.

[gev]

Originally posted by Micah


Ok, you be morally superior while the guy you would let live goes on and blows up some more Jewish citizens. I'm sure your moral superiority would win the day if you were caught up in the bombing.

You can be morally supiror and still win the war, and still prevent suicide bombing from happening.

to be morally suprior does not mean to be completely morral, for example: some people would say that killing the terrorist himself is not morral, well most people in the world and in Israel would not agree.

You can say it is "ok" to KNOWNGLY kill childrens and civilians around a known terrorist, most people would disagree.
I think these people should be considered as they are: hostages of terror - would it be OK to bomb a terrorist house if he holds an israeli hostage and planning a massive terror attack?

I think that If we look at the conflict in general, one of the things that kept us on the winning side was our morral superiority - The israeli society is united to a single goal when there are clear morral means and morral reasons to acheive that goal.

[Micah]

Wanna wait another 50 years to have peace just to have moral superiority as sharon seems to think we should?

[gev]

Originally posted by Micah
Wanna wait another 50 years to have peace just to have moral superiority as sharon seems to think we should?

nope, I think the way we handled things until now was with morral superiority (except for some minorities) and we did pretty well.

moreover, I think that if we continue this path, thinking and do things not out of panic and vengence, we will have our peace (for example, with the help of moderate Arab countries).

We can't (and we don't) act like a terrorist group but with massive power.

besides, Do you really think that actions like these approaches peace?

[Vic]

What exactly were all the children doing in Shehada's house, btw.? Did he surround himself with them on purpose, by any chance, well knowing that he was a marked person?