South Africa to Syria's rescue

[takeo]

Reffo

Excuse me Takeo but who brought up the subject of Rwanda in the first place? You did! You brought it up out of left field and trried to bash the USA over the head with it!!! You accused the US as if they had the sole responsibility for the Rwandan tragedy, you acted as if no one else had anything to answer for!

Because you also brought up the totally unrelated issue of Darfur...

You call that France bashing? But you come to this forum and regularly post your one sided accusations and propaganda against Israel and the US but you get yourself all huffed up when we occasionally point out that your own country is not the epitome of sainthood? You say you know that? Yet you are always preaching about Israel and the US? So, why don't you try to first fix your own country before getting involved in the affairs of others?

I have as much right to criticise Israel and the US as you have the right to criticise France, or Iran for that matter (this forum wouldn't exist without people bashing either France, or some muslim country) but you should remain on topic. France currently isn't occupying some neighbouring territories, nor did it invade a Middle Eastern country or caused a civil war there. And whenever necessary I criticise my own government, I have not yet seen you criticising the US-invasion of Iraq, the misnamagement, the WMD-lies, the Israeli occupation, etc. (you call it "one sided accusation and propaganda") while I criticise French role in Rwanda and Algeria. I look in the mirror and see the deficiencies of "my own side" which you are unwilling do to.
The whole rift between France and the US came after France refused to believe the WMD-lies fabricated in the White House, remember? Do you also remember that on this forum I was the only one who doubted this whole WMD-story at the start of the war?

[takeo]

On this day in history:

February 23 marks the anniversary of the conviction of French writer Emile Zola for exposing the anti-semitism in the French government that led to the rigged trial of Captain Alfred Dreyfus.

Captain Dreyfus was falsely accused of spying for Germany by the French, who were as thoroughly corrupt and anti-semitic in the 1890s as today.

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/research/f...inetti/44.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...4/J_accuse.jpg

This helps explain why that other great hero of France, Maurice Papon was buried with his precious Légion d'honneur.

Papon was convicted only once (he was involved in many more deportations) for his responsibility for the 1942 arrest and deportation of 1,600 Jews in and around Bordeaux - 223 children among them, all shipped off to the Drancy camp and then to Auschwitz - was proved without the proverbial shadow of a doubt at his 1998 trial.

^_^

Yes, yes dreyfuss, Papon, Vichy, the ever reutrning classics of France-bashing (of course in the US no problems with anti-semitism, racism, etc. KKK is just a hobby club, etc.) everything as long as you don't have to debate over Iraq, a debate you're loosing because the facts on the ground proved you were wrong. Bashing France is always more easier than staying on topic and debating the catastrophic results of the Bush-policy in the Middle East...

[Reffo]

Because you also brought up the totally unrelated issue of Darfur...

You really are losing it aren't you Takeo? OK, here is a challenge for you: Just show me the post in which I (not someone else) brought up Darfur!

I have as much right to criticise Israel and the US as you have the right to criticise France, or Iran for that matter (this forum wouldn't exist without people bashing either France, or some muslim country) but you should remain on topic. France currently isn't occupying some neighbouring territories, nor did it invade a Middle Eastern country or caused a civil war there. And whenever necessary I criticise my own government, I have not yet seen you criticising the US-invasion of Iraq, the misnamagement, the WMD-lies, the Israeli occupation, etc. (you call it "one sided accusation and propaganda") while I criticise French role in Rwanda and Algeria. I look in the mirror and see the deficiencies of "my own side" which you are unwilling do to.
The whole rift between France and the US came after France refused to believe the WMD-lies fabricated in the White House, remember? Do you also remember that on this forum I was the only one who doubted this whole WMD-story at the start of the war?

This forum wouldn't exist if you and your cohorts would be willing to look at the Middle East conflict in a mature and realistic way instead of being one dimensional and cartoon like where you claim that Israel is ALL bad , it does nothing right and the Arabs are just poor helpless victims and nothing is their fault.....In fact, this forum exists in order to debunk the lies and propaganda of people like yourself!

Then you have the hide to complain about us reminding you that France is not exactly saintly either. And on top of it you try to pretend that you are just REACTING? to our "France Bashing"???? Isn't it the other way around???? Aren't we the ones who are reacting to your constant tirades against Israel and the US??????!!!!!

[takeo]

You really are losing it aren't you Takeo? OK, here is a challenge for you: Just show me the post in which I (not someone else) brought up Darfur!

This forum wouldn't exist if you and your cohorts would be willing to look at the Middle East conflict in a mature and realistic way instead of being one dimensional and cartoon like where you claim that Israel is ALL bad , it does nothing right and the Arabs are just poor helpless victims and nothing is their fault.....In fact, this forum exists in order to debunk the lies and propaganda of people like yourself!

Then you have the hide to complain about us reminding you that France is not exactly saintly either. And on top of it you try to pretend that you are just REACTING? to our "France Bashing"???? Isn't it the other way around???? Aren't we the ones who are reacting to your constant tirades against Israel and the US??????!!!!!

OK, it wasn't you but someone with nearly the same arguments, that's what happens if you have to answer posts of several people at once. Anyway, so SOMEONE else brought up this topic and that's why I replied by mentioning other parts of Africa, since Darfur is not the only genocide going on.

I think I look at the middle East multidimensional and not cartoon like, unlike most other posters here. If you would have read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I don't think Arabs are poor helpless victims, actually I always said Arabs have some part of the blame, BUT Israel as well.
in Iraq I always said the situation is extremely complicated, not just good resistance fighters against bad occupiers, and I don't like the Iranian mullah-regime either.
Your view, and the view of many posters here is quite simple. US is good Israel is good, the christians are good, Arabs are bad islamists and terrorists who support Al-Quaida. Al-Quaida, Iran and Saddam are all on the same side, Bush is on the other side... The good against the evil, very recognisable, comfortable, especially for Americans who don't like complicated stuff...


Of course disregarding all realities on the ground(for example that the us is currently supporting a pro-Iranian regime in Iraq while Saddam's was helping christians and secular), denying simple facts(that Syria entered the war on the side of the christians for example, that Bush and the terror-supporting Saudi family are big buddies), etc. all this in order to maintain your simple black-and-white worldview.

[Illuminatus]

well said Reffo

Then you have the hide to complain about us reminding you that France is not exactly saintly either.

And on top of it you try to pretend that you are just REACTING? to our "France Bashing"???? Isn't it the other way around???? Aren't we the ones who are reacting to your constant tirades against Israel and the US??????!!!!!

I agree, no one is "French Bashing" here. But it does help to remind EUtopians who speak French who they really are:

16 Per cent of Europeans Live Below Poverty Line

[.. The European Commission’s annual social inclusion report, published on Monday, reveals that one in six Europeans lives below the national poverty line, while 10 per cent live in households without a single working member.

the study showed that 16 per cent of EU citizens lived under the poverty threshold which is defined as 60 per cent of their country's median income, according to Business Week.

The poverty statistics ranged from nine to 10 per cent in Sweden and the Czech Republic to 21 per cent in Poland and Lithuania while in all countries except the Nordic states, Greece and Cyprus, children are often at greater risk of poverty. ..]

What was that about Saddamites throwing stones from glass houses..... ?

^_^

[Reffo]

OK, it wasn't you but someone with nearly the same arguments, that's what happens if you have to answer posts of several people at once. Anyway, so SOMEONE else brought up this topic and that's why I replied by mentioning other parts of Africa, since Darfur is not the only genocide going on.

Yes.....and you just happened to conveniently forget France's much greater role in the Rwandan genocide!

I think I look at the middle East multidimensional and not cartoon like, unlike most other posters here. If you would have read my posts carefully you would have noticed that I don't think Arabs are poor helpless victims, actually I always said Arabs have some part of the blame, BUT Israel as well.

Takeo, I challenge you to just look at your posts. You routinely blame Israel for everything and occasionally, very occasionally, when you are cornered, you make a token acknowledgement that Arabs behave badly and even then you qualify it by blaming Israel and expecting Israel to act as if the Arabs are NOT doing anything wrong!! Yes, you treat this whole conflict in a cartoonish way. According to you, Israel is the devil incarnate and the Arabs are just blameless poor victims.....

in Iraq I always said the situation is extremely complicated, not just good resistance fighters against bad occupiers, and I don't like the Iranian mullah-regime either.
Your view, and the view of many posters here is quite simple. US is good Israel is good, the christians are good, Arabs are bad islamists and terrorists who support Al-Quaida. Al-Quaida, Iran and Saddam are all on the same side, Bush is on the other side... The good against the evil, very recognisable, comfortable, especially for Americans who don't like complicated stuff...

Yes, I am against the terrorists in Iraq. The ones who cut off their noses to spite their own faces. Yes, I maintain that the US went into Iraq to get rid of the genocidal dictator Saddam who was the responsible for the deaths of about 1 million Muslims and who threatened the whole region. I also acknowledge that the Bush administration made mistakes, they haven't planned properly but it's easy to criticize from the sidelines, especially with the benefit of hindsight. But I definitely don't side with the supremacist Islamo fascists who are willing to kill their own fellow Muslims just in order to exhaust the patience of ordinary decent Americans with this war. The sad thing is that their murderous tactics seem to be bearing fruit because of the concerted effort of leftist idiots like yourself who for political reasons are willing to overlook the murderous tactics of the Islamists and constantly vilify the efforts of the US army in Iraq......

Of course disregarding all realities on the ground(for example that the us is currently supporting a pro-Iranian regime in Iraq while Saddam's was helping christians and secular), denying simple facts(that Syria entered the war on the side of the christians for example, that Bush and the terror-supporting Saudi family are big buddies), etc. all this in order to maintain your simple black-and-white worldview.

The only ones who defacto support Iran, for political reasons and because they are against the USA, are leftists such as yourself. But you don't realize that by doing so, in the long term, you are shooting our collective foot, yes, I said OUR!! Because in the longer term, there will be hell to pay for all of us, leftists too, with a nuclear armed Iran!!!!

[Gunther]

Apartheid regime did nothing of the kind, only benefitted a small minority while the large majority lived in absolute poverty.
Don't get me wrong, I am glad that reform evevtually happened but I want to point out that this sort of suff happens all the time.

[takeo]

Illuminatus


I agree, no one is "French Bashing" here. But it does help to remind EUtopians who speak French who they really are:

16 Per cent of Europeans Live Below Poverty Line

Europe has included a lot of poor countries in its ranks, what would be the percentage of people living below the the poverty line in North America comprising Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, the US, etc.
Even in the US itself, not even including poor countries, the people living below the poverty line is 13 percent... and in the US poverty among children is much higher... http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/pover...5/pov05hi.html

[takeo]

Reffo

Yes.....and you just happened to conveniently forget France's much greater role in the Rwandan genocide!

I didn't, but you forgot to mention the US role in it, as well as the US-role in the largely ignored genocide in Eastern Congo!

Takeo, I challenge you to just look at your posts. You routinely blame Israel for everything and occasionally, very occasionally, when you are cornered, you make a token acknowledgement that Arabs behave badly and even then you qualify it by blaming Israel and expecting Israel to act as if the Arabs are NOT doing anything wrong!! Yes, you treat this whole conflict in a cartoonish way. According to you, Israel is the devil incarnate and the Arabs are just blameless poor victims.....

No, that's not the case, I regularly blame the Arabs, and especially Hamas and their ideological brothers in Saudi Arabia, who are not really interested in peace. But at the same time I can't help but notice that the regime in Saudi Arabia is the main US-ally in the region as well as a personal friend and business associate of the Bush-family! And I can't help but notice that you and all the other Bush-defenders try to ignore this major fact as much as possible, since it doesn't fit at all in your black-and-white view on the middle East.

Yes, I am against the terrorists in Iraq. The ones who cut off their noses to spite their own faces.

So am I, but they didn't exist in Iraq before the US decided to invade Iraq because of WMD... they are a direct result of US-aggression in Iraq and the war it generated. Many of those terrorists have by the way been supported by the US in the 80's in Aghanistan. I think these are facts which don't really fit in your worldview...

Yes, I maintain that the US went into Iraq to get rid of the genocidal dictator Saddam who was the responsible for the deaths of about 1 million Muslims and who threatened the whole region.

But when he carried out this genocidal war against Iran and the Kurds he was on your side... only more than a decade later, when Iraq made peace with most of its neighbours, you invaded Iraq, and not because Saddam is a dictator, because there are plenty of those all over the middle East, many good friends of the White House... Again your rethoric has giant Swiss cheese holes which you can't really cover up...

I also acknowledge that the Bush administration made mistakes, they haven't planned properly but it's easy to criticize from the sidelines, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

He not only made mistakes in planning, the whole war was a mistake, and this result was very likely, as I (and many others) predicted on this same forum before the start of the war. The US has no right to intervene in a third country wich never invaded the US or posed any threat, unilateral foreign intervention and colonialism always had negative impact on the country as well as on worldsafety.

But I definitely don't side with the supremacist Islamo fascists who are willing to kill their own fellow Muslims just in order to exhaust the patience of ordinary decent Americans with this war.

nor do I or most other Bush-criticisers, so this is not the issue. What we are saying is that Bush-policy benefits these extremists in more than one way. Directly, trough Bush-ally Saudi Arabia, one of the most islamist nations on earth, much more than for example Iran, , or by supporting the jihadists in Afghanistan during the 80's, indirectly, by invading and interfearing in islamic countries like Iraq, Somalia, etc. and by supporting Israeli occupation of Palestine, which destabilises the Islamic world and enhances the hate against the West, which in turns favors the support for Al-Quaida and the likes.

The sad thing is that their murderous tactics seem to be bearing fruit because of the concerted effort of leftist idiots like yourself who for political reasons are willing to overlook the murderous tactics of the Islamists and constantly vilify the efforts of the US army in Iraq......

What???????????? This is really insane, do you really think those islamists care about leftists or liberals in the US or Europe? We are infidels to them, just like you. By the way leftists have had no influence whatsoever on the us-policy in Iraq. Their tactics bear fruit because of the brutal and illegal US-presence in the heart of the Middle East, which generates hate all over the Arab world, and because the US-installed a pro-Iranian shiite regime in Iraq, which oppresses the sunnite minority.

The only ones who defacto support Iran, for political reasons and because they are against the USA, are leftists such as yourself.

nonsense, I'm for trading with Iran because it are exactly the more wealthy urban and young Iranian which oppose the regime and because it strengthens the more moderate people within the regime, while US-policy strenghtens the radical ones, such as the current president, who is very controversial in Iran and criticised by all major media outlets. Isolating and impoverishing the Iranian people, let alone creating a war and destroying the country, will only strenghten the radical elements, like in Iraq. But I don't support the regime and would never send them any weapons or political support, military training, etc. like the US does with allies such as Saudi Arabia, which are much more radical and "islamofascist" than Iran.
Also, wich is quite funny if it weren't so cynical, the US indirectly boosted the radical elements in Iran by bringing their Iraqi allies and friends to power. Right now the US is giving its young men and loads of money to protect a regime wich is more radical than Iran's, the only Arab regime to openly cheer Hezbollah during the latest war. So, sorry to say this, but your arguments stink...

But you don't realize that by doing so, in the long term, you are shooting our collective foot, yes, I said OUR!! Because in the longer term, there will be hell to pay for all of us, leftists too, with a nuclear armed Iran!!!!

I don't like a nuclear Iran either, but Pakistan is much more dangerous, if you have been to both Pakistan and Iran you'll know, Iran is a modern liberal country compared to Pakistan, and they'll never bring their regime in danger by using them first. Despite the rethorics, even today they don't target Israel eventough they could. You have to understand about this regime that words and deeds are two different worlds, the elite enjoys a nice life and wants to keep it that way. The only danger it is facing comes from within, from people dissatisfied by the corruption and inequality and religious restrictions which are mainly hypocritical, the strong talk is meant for internal use only.

[Illuminatus]

Europe has included a lot of poor countries in its ranks, what would be the percentage of people living below the the poverty line in North America comprising Mexico, Guatemala, Nicaragua, the US, etc.
Even in the US itself, not even including poor countries, the people living below the poverty line is 13 percent... and in the US poverty among children is much higher... http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/pover...5/pov05hi.html

In that case, why don't you include your African colonies whose vast majority in the wake of Europe'a rape and plunder of the region in the past 2 centuries left it in the sewage of 4th world poverty, genocide and wide spread famine. Ah yes, yet another contribution from the land that invented "sophisticated civilization".

Still, I doubt if France and its EUroWeenies will fix their mess in Africa anytime soon -- becuase, European study says EU economy is 20 years behind that of the US

From news article:

Europeans once thought they had a better way -- a "third way" between socialism and capitalism -- that would deliver both income equality and economic growth. But in reality, the third way delivers neither -- and now Europe faces a massive, long-term problem of catching up to the United States, says Investor's Business Daily (IBD).

Eurochambres, a continent-wide business think tank concludes that the European Union (EU) is roughly 20 years behind the United States in economic development:

● The United States reached Europe's current level of economic development -- as measured by gross domestic product per person -- back in 1985, a 21-year deficit.

● Europe also lags behind in a number of other measures, including productivity (17 years), employment and R&D (28 years), and Internet use (four years).

● Even last year, when the EU touted its strong rebound, growth came in at just 2.9 percent across the continent -- compared with 3.3 percent in the United States.

● Per capita GDP in the EU would have to grow 8 percent a year for the next four years to catch up, and that assumes the United States stays at its 2005 level.

Why the difference? The United States has smaller government, less regulation and much higher productivity. It also has what Nobel Prize-winning economist Edmund Phelps recently called "dynamism" -- a culture of entrepreneurialism that doesn't exist in Europe, says IBD.

Unfortunately, Europe's policies happen to point in the same direction that congressional Democrats seem to want to take the United States. This would be a tragic mistake, says IBD. Democrats want more in the way of taxes, spending, regulation and labor costs and less in the way of free trade -- the very combination that repeated studies show has dragged down Europe's economic performance.

And that boys and girls, explains why EUtopia has a catastrophic level of 16 percent poverty rate - and rising.

France and it EUroWeenies likes to pretend that its "shocked" as to what's happening in its former colonies. There is nothing in South America that can ever compare to the horror, starvation, abject widespread poverty and despair EUtopians left in Africa.

For text:

http://www.investors.com/editorial/e...58163758726158

For actual report:

http://www.eurochambres.be/PDF/pdf_L...anceStudy2.pdf

^_^

[nbarzelay]

Takeo,
You are making assumptions again that there weren't any Al-Qaida or other terrorist factions present in Iraq during Saddam's regime. We've discussed this before, and you are once again presenting it as mere fact.

The terrorist factions seen operating in Iraq today have been present long before the 2003 invasion or Iraq and before the first gulf war. The removal of Saddam simply allowed them free reign of Iraq through the porous borders. Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and other players has jumped on this situation of anarchy as a chance to increase their influence amongst the Shia majority in Iraq (or the Sunni minority, depending on which players one is referring to) and to further instill secular hatred that has existed for well over a 1,000 years as well as influence over the natural resources. To present this secular infighting as a new phenomenon is just blatantly false.

Sure, the US could've handled this situation a bit better, but you are proving extremely stubborn and misguided to put the instability seen in Iraq squarely on the coalition forces.

The simple case of the matter in the US's past support for Saddam was simply in opposition to Iran. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Same situation in Afghanistan against the Communist influence there, same situation seen with US support in Latin America in the past and present. It was morally wrong what Saddam did to the Kurds and others in Iraq and outside of Iraq, however, this all has to do about influence and supporting those who oppose your enemy. This is a simple concept easy enough for you to understand and has nothing to do with rhetoric.

[nbarzelay]

In that case, why don't you include your African colonies whose vast majority in the wake of Europe'a rape and plunder of the region in the past 2 centuries left it in the sewage of 4th world poverty, genocide and wide spread famine. Ah yes, yet another contribution from the land that invented "sophisticated civilization".

Still, I doubt if France and its EUroWeenies will fix their mess in Africa anytime soon -- becuase,

^_^

Illuminatus,

You seem to forget the US's involvement in the rape and plundering of Africa. The Americans and their treatment of slaves were the worst amongst all who slave traded, even worse than the Belgians. So don't forget your country's great involvement in this trade and being amongst the last ones to abolish slavery.

In those US/EU comparison, the GDP growth percentage comparisons are quite misleading. The EU has a wide variety of new additions, so if you want to compare European countries, do so on an individual basis, rather than a wholesale attack on everything European. Sure there are negatives, but I'm damn sure that the Netherlands has better financial practices (e.g. in terms of claiming bankrupsy amongst businesses and their responsibility to their shareholders; Donald Trump wouldn't be dirt poor if he didn't screw his shareholders over his two dozen+ previously failed businesses) than the US.

If you want to view GDP growth percentages, then in this POV you would feel inferior to these countries:

Rank GDP - real growth rate
(%)
1 Azerbaijan 32.50 2006 est.

2 Mauritania 19.40 2006 est.

3 Equatorial Guinea 18.60 2005 est.

4 Maldives 18.00 2006 est.

5 Angola 14.00 2006 est.

6 Armenia 13.40 2006 est.

7 Cambodia 13.40 2006 est.

8 Turkmenistan 13.00 2006 est.

9 Trinidad and Tobago 12.60 2006 est.

10 Liechtenstein 11.00 1999 est.

11 Cyprus 10.60 2006 est.

12 China 10.50 2006 est.

13 United Arab Emirates 10.20 2006 est.

14 Anguilla 10.20 2004 est.

15 Latvia 10.20 2006 est.

16 Estonia 9.80 2006 est.

17 Mozambique 9.80 2006 est.

18 Ethiopia 9.60 2006 est.

19 Sudan 9.60 2006 est.

20 Bhutan 8.80 2005 est.

21 Georgia 8.80 2006 est.

22 Venezuela 8.80 2006 est.

23 Argentina 8.50 2006 est.

24 Kazakhstan 8.50 2006 est.

25 India 8.50 2006 est.

26 Afghanistan 8.40 2006 est.

27 Belarus 8.30 2006 est.

28 Libya 8.10 2006 est.

29 Kuwait 8.00 2006 est.

30 Vietnam 7.80 2006 est.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications.../2003rank.html

You might even see a few EU nations substancially beating the US's GDP% growth of 3.4% (Ranked #134), but I don't take this as a sole indicator of growth. Taking the aggregate growth in all EU countries and comparing this to US growth is pretty foolish.

I wouldn't count the US as being a beacon and leader of free-trade neither. Business is cut-throat where ever you go.

[Illuminatus]

You seem to forget the US's involvement in the rape and plundering of Africa. The Americans and their treatment of slaves were the worst amongst all who slave traded, even worse than the Belgians. So don't forget your country's great involvement in this trade and being amongst the last ones to abolish slavery.

In December 1805, a bill was introduced to the Senate prohibiting the importation of slaves which took effect in 1808 -- slavery ended 57 years later after the Civil War -- in Brazil it lasted until 1876.

The ill treatment of slaves was universal throughout the world and especially in the European colonies in the Americas and Africa. The atrocities and mistreatment of the African slaves in Haiti commited by the French was particularly notorious. The uprising and the slaughter of the French former owners is still a featured favorite in popular music.

You seem to forget that the US never had a colony in Africa (freed American slaves actually purchased its land in the area now called Liberia) -- the British and the Barbary States cornered the market for slave state in the mid-1700s, so we are deliberately missing the point to takeo. The fact is, EUropean colonialism exists to this very day and so too does its exploitation of its former colonies -- and the mess EUtopeans left in Africa has no historic comparison to the Western Hemisphere.

You might even see a few EU nations substancially beating the US's GDP% growth of 3.4% (Ranked #134), but I don't take this as a sole indicator of growth. Taking the aggregate growth in all EU countries and comparing this to US growth is pretty foolish.

This is exactly what most economist do for a living. I didn't write the article or made the comparison. EuroChambers and the EU Commision are ones to made and published the study. Economic growth is relative --- which is why the EuroChambers compares the EU with the US and not with Azerbaijan, Mauritania or Iraq. Economics is a relative, social science (which by the way is a favorite topic of mine).

I'm using EU stats from EU economists -- you should see what American academics & Wall Street economists say & write about the European economy. Then you'll definately have something to hoot about.

quote:
European study says EU economy is 20 years behind that of the US. slash quote

In those US/EU comparison, the GDP growth percentage comparisons are quite misleading. The EU has a wide variety of new additions, so if you want to compare European countries, do so on an individual basis, rather than a wholesale attack on everything European. Sure there are negatives, but I'm damn sure that the Netherlands has better financial practices (e.g. in terms of claiming bankrupsy amongst businesses and their responsibility to their shareholders; Donald Trump wouldn't be dirt poor if he didn't screw his shareholders over his two dozen+ previously failed businesses) than the US.

The comparison stats used in the EU Chambers/Commision report utilized only the initial 15 countries of last year and not the current 27. Meaning EUtopian economic statistics would be much (much) worst if they use the latest stats -- wait until next year.

quoting the EuroChambers study on page 5:

[.. We wish to highlight that the first study included EU15 countries only (..) With the inclusion of Bulgaria and Romania, these time distances may deteriorate even further...]

I wouldn't count the US as being a beacon and leader of free-trade neither.

The Swiss World Economic Forum has the USA in the top ten and falliing in and out the number 1 position in competiveness over the past 60 years. Although the US did drop to number 18 in 1945. Not bad considering small homogenuous societies have it easy being in the top ten as opposed to a diverse country of 300 million coming from all corners of the globe.

btw -- The Israeli Economy is doing quite well itself - in fact its beating the EUtopians in several sectors.

The State Dept. issued almost 210,000 permanent visas (17,000 French) to EUroWeenies in 2006. All most all them (hightly trained and educated) cited lack of employment in EUtopia. Least we forget.

.......and speaking of work -- French suicides at work on the rise.

according to the Conseil economique et social

From news article:

One person a day commits suicide at work.

A recent study carried out by the Conseil economique et social (economic and social council) shows that an average of one person per day commits suicide due to work related stress in France.

Christian Larose, vice-president of the council and labour union representative in the textile industry, released the staggering figure of 300 to 400 work-related suicides a year.

Furthermore, and as Christian Larose points out, "these figures are increasing and may be too low".

Michel Debout, the president of the National union for suicide prevention, arrives at the same conclusion. "We face a important and increasingly worrying phenomenon", he said, adding that "today this issue is no longer a taboo" and welcoming initiatives like that of EDF which recently created a "listening and understanding group" forits employees.

Renault and other large French industrial groups have also made similar efforts to prevent work-related suicides.

Business is cut-throat where ever you go.

And that's just the way I like it. -- "Greed is good."
(Gordon Gekko in the 1986 movie 'Wall St.')

^_^

[Reffo]

I didn't,

You did!

This reminds me of the saying: "Never argue with an idiot! He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience!"

I'm arguing with an idiot

No, that's not the case, I regularly blame the Arabs, and especially Hamas and their ideological brothers in Saudi Arabia, who are not really interested in peace. But at the same time I can't help but notice that the regime in Saudi Arabia is the main US-ally in the region as well as a personal friend and business associate of the Bush-family! And I can't help but notice that you and all the other Bush-defenders try to ignore this major fact as much as possible, since it doesn't fit at all in your black-and-white view on the middle East.

...You don't blame them regularly enough! Especially since by your own admission, they are not interested in peace so even if Israel does everything that people like you ask of it, Hamas will not stop what they are doing....they will continually murder Israeli civilians and try to destroy Israel!

So am I, but they didn't exist in Iraq before the US decided to invade Iraq because of WMD... they are a direct result of US-aggression in Iraq and the war it generated. Many of those terrorists have by the way been supported by the US in the 80's in Aghanistan. I think these are facts which don't really fit in your worldview...

No, but Islamofascists didn't just appear spontaneously out of thin air. Before the Iraq invasion they operated elsewhere, like Bali, Niarobi, New York (9/11), Kashmir, the Balkans and lot's of other places .... So now, at least most of them congregated to Iraq and to afghanistan instead of New York and other places...

But when he carried out this genocidal war against Iran and the Kurds he was on your side... only more than a decade later, when Iraq made peace with most of its neighbours, you invaded Iraq, and not because Saddam is a dictator, because there are plenty of those all over the middle East, many good friends of the White House... Again your rethoric has giant Swiss cheese holes which you can't really cover up...

Most of them are not quite as bad as Saddam. But even if they were, idiots like you would be the first to scream if the USA would attempt to remove them from power. Like you have been screaming ever since the USA at least did one thing right with Saddam, even if a bit belatedly....

He not only made mistakes in planning, the whole war was a mistake, and this result was very likely, as I (and many others) predicted on this same forum before the start of the war. The US has no right to intervene in a third country wich never invaded the US or posed any threat, unilateral foreign intervention and colonialism always had negative impact on the country as well as on worldsafety.

No one would have agreed with you if the Iraqis would have grabbed the golden opportunity that was handed to them to create a paradise (like Germany and Japan did after WW2) out of the ruins that Saddam left them. As it is, unfortunately many misguided people will agree with you, not me.

And no doubt you are happy about that even though it means misery for the Iraqi people. But you don't care about that, all you care about is that the USA (Bush) has egg on his face, that's the only thing that counts for idiots like you!

nor do I or most other Bush-criticisers....

You do, whether you admit it to yourself or not, the effect is the same because you are against confronting the Islamofascists with the only thing that they understand and respect, FORCE!

The sad thing is that their murderous tactics seem to be bearing fruit because of the concerted effort of leftist idiots like yourself who for political reasons are willing to overlook the murderous tactics of the Islamists and constantly vilify the efforts of the US army in Iraq......

What???????????? This is really insane, do you really think those islamists care about leftists or liberals in the US or Europe? We are infidels to them, just like you. By the way leftists have had no influence whatsoever on the us-policy in Iraq. Their tactics bear fruit because of the brutal and illegal US-presence in the heart of the Middle East, which generates hate all over the Arab world, and because the US-installed a pro-Iranian shiite regime in Iraq, which oppresses the sunnite minority.

Yes I do! They look for signs of discord in the west, they look for weakness, their morale rises when they see 100,000 misguided and well meaning people marching against Bush in the streets. It spurs them on to create more anarchy, death and destruction and they rely on idiots like you to create political opposition against the war in the west, so that the west eventually loses heart, gives up and hands control over to the Jihadis. In this way, they win wars that otherwise they wouldn't ever have a chance of winning....

The only ones who defacto support Iran, for political reasons and because they are against the USA, are leftists such as yourself.

nonsense, I'm for trading with Iran because it are exactly the more wealthy urban and young Iranian which oppose the regime and because it strengthens the more moderate people within the regime, while US-policy strenghtens the radical ones, ...

Yep, the moderate ones who will be suppressed by your Mullah buddies forever. Especially once they will be allowed to develop their cherished bomb with the help of idiots like you who oppose even sanctions let alone something more effective ...

I don't like a nuclear Iran either, but Pakistan is much more dangerous, if you have been to both Pakistan and Iran you'll know, Iran is a modern liberal country compared to Pakistan, and they'll never bring their regime in danger by using them first. Despite the rethorics, even today they don't target Israel eventough they could. You have to understand about this regime that words and deeds are two different worlds, the elite enjoys a nice life and wants to keep it that way. The only danger it is facing comes from within, from people dissatisfied by the corruption and inequality and religious restrictions which are mainly hypocritical, the strong talk is meant for internal use only.

When are you going to learn to live in the REAL WORLD takeo? The world already made it's mistake with Pakistan, they have the bomb, the horse has bolted...... But there would still be a chance to stop repeating the same mistake with Iran. And your logic is? "Pakistan has it, why should we stop Iran? Right Takeo?

[takeo]

In that case, why don't you include your African colonies whose vast majority in the wake of Europe'a rape and plunder of the region in the past 2 centuries left it in the sewage of 4th world poverty, genocide and wide spread famine. Ah yes, yet another contribution from the land that invented "sophisticated civilization".

Still, I doubt if France and its EUroWeenies will fix their mess in Africa anytime soon -- becuase, European study says EU economy is 20 years behind that of the US

From news article:

Europeans once thought they had a better way -- a "third way" between socialism and capitalism -- that would deliver both income equality and economic growth. But in reality, the third way delivers neither -- and now Europe faces a massive, long-term problem of catching up to the United States, says Investor's Business Daily (IBD).

Eurochambres, a continent-wide business think tank concludes that the European Union (EU) is roughly 20 years behind the United States in economic development:

● The United States reached Europe's current level of economic development -- as measured by gross domestic product per person -- back in 1985, a 21-year deficit.

● Europe also lags behind in a number of other measures, including productivity (17 years), employment and R&D (28 years), and Internet use (four years).

● Even last year, when the EU touted its strong rebound, growth came in at just 2.9 percent across the continent -- compared with 3.3 percent in the United States.

● Per capita GDP in the EU would have to grow 8 percent a year for the next four years to catch up, and that assumes the United States stays at its 2005 level.

Why the difference? The United States has smaller government, less regulation and much higher productivity. It also has what Nobel Prize-winning economist Edmund Phelps recently called "dynamism" -- a culture of entrepreneurialism that doesn't exist in Europe, says IBD.

Unfortunately, Europe's policies happen to point in the same direction that congressional Democrats seem to want to take the United States. This would be a tragic mistake, says IBD. Democrats want more in the way of taxes, spending, regulation and labor costs and less in the way of free trade -- the very combination that repeated studies show has dragged down Europe's economic performance.

And that boys and girls, explains why EUtopia has a catastrophic level of 16 percent poverty rate - and rising.

France and it EUroWeenies likes to pretend that its "shocked" as to what's happening in its former colonies. There is nothing in South America that can ever compare to the horror, starvation, abject widespread poverty and despair EUtopians left in Africa.

For text:

http://www.investors.com/editorial/e...58163758726158

For actual report:

http://www.eurochambres.be/PDF/pdf_L...anceStudy2.pdf

^_^

Nonsense, many European countries are actually ahead of the US, look at www.undp.org and check human devellopment index, economic growth rates and GNP per inhabitant. Others are not far behind. (of course excluding some southern and eastern European countries such as Turkey, Greece, Portugal, Romania, Bosnia, etc. who were devellopping countries not so long ago or have gone trough some rough times). European growth rate on average was higher than US growth rate during the last decades. Also poverty in European countries which are on a similar economic level as the US (North-Western Europe) is much lower than in the US.
About Africa, did you know that many African areas still lived in the stone age before European colonisation, others were dominated by Arab slave trade, while countries such as Guatemala or Mexico were already highly devellopped. Of course I'm never going to defend European colonisation, it left some bad legacies in Africa and Asia, but US-policy in Latin America strangled Latin America, who are still underdevellopped and desperately poor, despite the fact that they were much more advanced than africa and Asia in the 19th century. (some were even better off than Europe such as Argentina or Brasil)

By the way if you use source try to use neutral sources accepted by all parties as I did (UNDP) not some controversial politically motivated article

Your source (from their website): "The NCPA's goal is to develop and promote private alternatives to government regulation and control, solving problems by relying on the strength of the competitive, entrepreneurial private sector. "

Eurochambres represents some European business and multinaitonal representatives, who are of course promoting a socio-economical program which is advantageous for them, not for the population as a whole. They are by no means a representative or neutral source of information, but defend their own interests, you could as well have quoted the European labour unions who conclude that Europe should move further away from the US and become more social.