An answer to a Lebanese forum member

[KettleWhistle]

From another post:

the threat of war is not over, many think that 2007 will whitness a more brutal war,,, do u (israeli's) think that it has to be done and cannot be avoided???

Another major escalation is not desired by anyone in Israel, and IMO is unlikely. However, don't forget why Israel got engaged in Lebanon in the first place--it was because of constant attacks on Israel from the Lebanese territory. And if these attacks resume, then I would expect Israel to go in force, just not with the borderline retarded strategy that they employed last summer.

[TRK]

From another post:

don't forget why Israel got engaged in Lebanon in the first place--it was because of constant attacks on Israel from the Lebanese territory.

the july war of 2006 started after the abduction of two israeli soldiers by hezbollah right? and that happened so that hezbollah would be able to trade these prisonners with other lebanese prisonners detained in israel... how come it is not acceptable for hezbollah to take action and try to get their prisonners back by force while it is okay for israel to do so,,,??
P.S: i am not a hizbollah supporter, i actualy dnt support any lebanese movement right now but these are facts we cannot ignore,,,,

[KettleWhistle]

the july war of 2006 started after the abduction of two israeli soldiers by hezbollah right? and that happened so that hezbollah would be able to trade these prisonners with other lebanese prisonners detained in israel... how come it is not acceptable for hezbollah to take action and try to get their prisonners back by force while it is okay for israel to do so,,,??
P.S: i am not a hizbollah supporter, i actualy dnt support any lebanese movement right now but these are facts we cannot ignore,,,,

The Lebanese prisoners, such as Samir Kuntar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samir_Kuntar), whose release was demanded by Hezbolla are jailed because they committed crimes and convicted of these crimes by legitimate courts within the country. As everywhere, if the criminals are jailed in the countries they are tried, which are usually the countries where they committed the crimes.

Futhermore, any discussions about these prisoners can be held with legitimate Lebanese government, not with this or that group or gang. Nor can they possibly have any legitimate claim to have murderes like Kuntar released.

[TRK]

Futhermore, any discussions about these prisoners can be held with legitimate Lebanese government, not with this or that group or gang. Nor can they possibly have any legitimate claim to have murderes like Kuntar released.

don't forget that israel and lebanon are ennemys... and don't forget the fact that israel still occupies the farms of chebaa (LEBANESE territories)... our governments do not negociate with one another.... besides how come you can charge samir kuntar for his crimes while the massacres your country has done in lebanon go unnoticed,,, don't forget the first massacre of QANA when women and children hiding in a UN headquarters got blown to peices,,, you should understand that israeli soldiers are viewed by hezbollah (and any lebanese) as terrorists,,, israel has executed and murdered lebanese officials for many years,,, just 2 month before the war a group of mossad who were carrying out multiple operations including the assasination of hezbollah officials by car bombs (killing many civilians) was arrested here... your governments way of dealing with things is not exactly divine and civilised like they want u to beleive... understand that i am a man of peace and i am not convinced nor do i beleive in the cause of hizbollah,,, i just need to know this... what do u think is the answer to the problem here? what is the solution? how are we ever going to live in peace?

[KettleWhistle]

don't forget that israel and lebanon are ennemys... and don't forget the fact that israel still occupies the farms of chebaa (LEBANESE territories)... our governments do not negociate with one another....

Shebaa farms are not recognized as Lebanese territory by anyone. Your government should direct it's grievances at the UN/international community. The UN certified Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, so you're barking at the wrong tree here, really. If the UN recognized it as Lebanese, there would be something to talk about here.

besides how come you can charge samir kuntar for his crimes while the massacres your country has done in lebanon go unnoticed,,, don't forget the first massacre of QANA when women and children hiding in a UN headquarters got blown to peices,,,

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Murder and collateral damage in time of war aren't the same thing. As for your claims of Mossad operations in Lebanon, if your government caugh these operatives and gave them a fair trial, and jailed them, that would be perfectly legitimate. Same with the soldiers patrolling the border being kidnapped by some armed gang from their home territory in no way equates to that. If they were on Lebanese territory and were apprehended by Lebanese army, given fair trials, given access to Red Cross, and such, then you'd have a point.

how are we ever going to live in peace?

Ask your govenment. They are the ones refusing to negociate.

[Aviva]

the july war of 2006 started after the abduction of two israeli soldiers by hezbollah right?

The war in 2006 started when Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon over 6 years ago. Hizbollah started building bunkers by the border with Israel in preparation for this war. The specific reasons for war could be about anything; in this case you believe it to be about Lebanese prisoners. The fact of the matter is that groups like Hizbollah have sworn to destroy Israel. That's their number one priority and much more important to them than any detained prisoners or the disputed Shebaa Farms. That's the real reason for the 2006 war and any other future war.

and that happened so that hezbollah would be able to trade these prisonners with other lebanese prisonners detained in israel... how come it is not acceptable for hezbollah to take action and try to get their prisonners back by force while it is okay for israel to do so,,,??
P.S: i am not a hizbollah supporter, i actualy dnt support any lebanese movement right now but these are facts we cannot ignore,,,,

Propaganda. It must be difficult to live in an Arab community and not be deeply influenced by anti-Israel propaganda. But everything you've said is a reflection of this.

If Hizbollah truly cared about the Lebanese people then they wouldn't have provoked Israel to come and attack them from within south Lebanon and Beruit to try to stop them from firing rockets into northern Israel.

Hizbollah doesn't care about Lebanon or Palestinians or detained prisoners. Hizbollah only cares about the destruction of Israel and will persue that goal at all costs.

[TRK]

Shebaa farms are not recognized as Lebanese territory by anyone. Your government should direct it's grievances at the UN/international community.

Even Rice is now talking about Chebaa as beeing lebanese... besides is it recognised as beeing israeli?!?! the conflict was between lebanon and syria and syria has recognised it as lebanese... and FYI the written agreement that got israel to stay in chebaa WAS NOT SIGNED! look it up....

The UN certified Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon, so you're barking at the wrong tree here, really. If the UN recognized it as Lebanese, there would be something to talk about here.

hmmm... do u know what's funny, you respect the UN whenever you feel like it, but bombing a UN base in a remote location is "collateral damage" and flyovers that breach the resolution 1701 that ended the war that killed 1200 lebanese is OK!

As for your claims of Mossad operations in Lebanon, if your government caugh these operatives and gave them a fair trial, and jailed them, that would be perfectly legitimate.

CLAIMS??? watch the news....

Lebanese army releases statement citing new evidence that cell nabbed in Lebanon for Majzoub brothers’ assassination in May answered to Israeli intelligence agency

Roee Nahmias Published: 06.14.06, 01:05 / Israel News

ISRAEL'S MOSSAD BEHIND CAR BOMBINGS IN LEBANON
By Rosalinda 09/03/2003 At 14:17


According to Amir Oren, military correspondent for the Israeli daily {Ha'aretz}, Israel's foreign intelligence agency, the Mossad, is behind a series of car bomb assassinations in Lebanon.


ISRAEL'S MOSSAD BEHIND CAR BOMBINGS IN LEBANON

Posted By: Rosalinda (india.indymedia.org)

Date: Friday, 7 March 2003, 12:02 a.m.

[Source: Haaretz, Mar.5, 2003]

""On June 13, the Lebanese army reported that Mahmud Rafah, who had been arrested along with three others in connection with the May 26 killing of two Islamic Jihad officials, was a leading member of an Israeli “terrorist” network behind at least three other major assassinations in Lebanon.

“Investigations by military intelligence showed that the terrorist network that was discovered had links to the Israeli Mossad for several years and that its members underwent training both inside Israel and outside,” the army statement said.

“The network was tasked by this agency [Mossad] with carrying out these operations and was given secret communication and monitoring devices for this purpose, along with detailed maps of the target,” the army said, including “forged documents and bags with secret pockets.”""

source: www.americanfreepress.com

Ask your govenment. They are the ones refusing to negociate.

we will negociate once you stop stepping all over the blue line as if sovereignty was just another word.... we have respected every united nations decision, the disarmement of hezbollah is beeing worked on day and night and it will happen through politics and communication,,, that is a matter that concerns the lebanese people alone, as to your part, get out of chebaa and you will never hear from hezbollah again,,, that is the only road we can take towards peace, and it starts with YOU moving two thousand soldiers from a lebanese land that is of no strategic value whatsoever!!

btw:
""Also the Israeli government has not asked for any type of negociations, and has said that they hold the ...""
http://www.lebanesebloggers.blogspot...ers-ahead.html

you want us to negociate whenever you feel like it!??? i don't think so, you have never asked for negociations during the war, only when you felt that force could not give you what you want, but after it had cost us billions of dollars and an immense loss of civilian life!!

[Aviva]

hmmm... do u know what's funny, you respect the UN whenever you feel like it, but bombing a UN base in a remote location is "collateral damage" and flyovers that breach the resolution 1701 that ended the war that killed 1200 lebanese is OK!

And you say you don't support Hizbollah?

Hizbollah engineered this war with Israel and engineered situations whereby they were making sure they were launching rockets from nearby UN sites so they could create a good chance that the UN would be hit, just so you could claim exactly what you've claimed. It's a trap for Israel to fall into to create anti-Israel propaganda and wow, in retrospect, doesn't it work well.

Now you're posting claims that Mossad is behind car bombings in Lebanon? You've got Hizbollah written all over you. Why don't you just admit it.

we will negociate once you stop stepping all over the blue line as if sovereignty was just another word.... we have respected every united nations decision, the disarmement of hezbollah is beeing worked on day and night and it will happen through politics and communication,,, that is a matter that concerns the lebanese people alone, as to your part, get out of chebaa and you will never hear from hezbollah again,,, that is the only road we can take towards peace, and it starts with YOU moving two thousand soldiers from a lebanese land that is of no strategic value whatsoever!!

The Shebaa Farms is part of the Golan Heights. If it's disputed land then you can't force Israel to get out of it. You either negotiate like civilsed people or you go to war and try to capture it. Either way you can't just make threats. Oh, I forgot - if you're Hizbollah (or Iran or Hamas) then yes, you can actually make threats, can't you. That's perfectly OK.

You show yourself in your true colours. How naive to suggest that Israel would never hear from Hizbollah again if it retreated from Shebaa. It's simply an excuse, just like the detained prisoners. Hizbollah wants to destroy Israel and won't stop at anything until that desire is fulfilled. It's really got nothing to do with disputed territory.

you want us to negociate whenever you feel like it!??? i don't think so, you have never asked for negociations during the war, only when you felt that force could not give you what you want, but after it had cost us billions of dollars and an immense loss of civilian life!!

Don't blame Israel for a war you started and didn't win.

[Mil]

Lebanon is a failed state.... and will remain as such for generations to come. I don't particularly care.

[Elin]

the july war of 2006 started after the abduction of two israeli soldiers by hezbollah right? and that happened so that hezbollah would be able to trade these prisonners with other lebanese prisonners detained in israel... how come it is not acceptable for hezbollah to take action and try to get their prisonners back by force while it is okay for israel to do so,,,??
P.S: i am not a hizbollah supporter, i actualy dnt support any lebanese movement right now but these are facts we cannot ignore,,,,

Hezbollah is an armed militant group inside of Lebanon. Hezbollah is not Lebanese Army. Put it first.Do you think that any militant group has any right to take action to get their prisinors back?


It is fact that Hezbollah attacked Israel first,started bombing Israeli cities with no warning, and crossed the border into Israel, kidnapped 2 soldiers and killed other 6. Many civilians were injured from the Hezbollah missile attacks.

Tell me which country would live with a terrorist organisation posessing long range-missiles meant for one and only purpose, the killing of it's civillians, operating from a sovereign country which doesn't control it's own land? Israel pulled out from the last inch of Lebanon as the international comunity demanded back in 2000. Israel has kept it's obligation and commitments. Whereas, Lebanese government didn't follow the U.N resolution 1551 which says the Lebanese army will take control of south Lebanon and Hizbollah will be disarmed and disputed from south Lebanon.

[KettleWhistle]

Even Rice is now talking about Chebaa as beeing lebanese... besides is it recognised as beeing israeli?!?! the conflict was between lebanon and syria and syria has recognised it as lebanese... and FYI the written agreement that got israel to stay in chebaa WAS NOT SIGNED! look it up....

As I said before, and as Israeli politicians stated numerous times, when there will be clear recognition of Shebaa Farms as Lebanese, then there will be something to talk about. So far there have been no such recognition, just a lot of talk.

hmmm... do u know what's funny, you respect the UN whenever you feel like it, but bombing a UN base in a remote location is "collateral damage" and flyovers that breach the resolution 1701 that ended the war that killed 1200 lebanese is OK!

I do not respect the UN, period. But collateral damage is just that. And the resolution 1701 called for unconditional release of the kidnapped soldiers and end to arming of Hizbollah. These conditions haven't been met.

CLAIMS??? watch the news....

Your "news" are nothing but claims from indymedia and some blog. But it's besides the point here. Foreign intelligence agent of every country operates in their neighbors' states. If the Lebanese government catches these operatives, gives them a fair trial and access to Red Cross, then you'd have a point.

we will negociate once you stop stepping all over the blue line as if sovereignty was just another word.... we have respected every united nations decision, the disarmement of hezbollah is beeing worked on day and night and it will happen through politics and communication,,,

btw:
""Also the Israeli government has not asked for any type of negociations, and has said that they hold the ...""
www.lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/2006/07/dangers-ahead.html

you want us to negociate whenever you feel like it!??? i don't think so, you have never asked for negociations during the war, only when you felt that force could not give you what you want, but after it had cost us billions of dollars and an immense loss of civilian life!!

There haven't been stepping over the blue line--that's a fact certified by the UNFIL. And Israeli government is open to negociations. It is the Lebanese that refused it. And you, yourself just stated that you refuse it. So hey, keep on claiming that you wish for peace. Unless you can start being honest and work civil relationship in forms of contacts and negociations, you shouldn't expect anything other than what you get.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...297677,00.html

[MGB8]

(1) The Sheeba Farms ARE NOT Lebanese territory, and NEVER have been. Sure, you can argue that they are Syrian territory - in which case it is up to Syria and Israel to settle the issue, but it has NOTHING to do with Lebanon.

(2) Hezbollah now acts for Lebanon? Ok, next time they act, Israel destroys the ENTIRE country. Do the Lebanese people get a say in deciding who controls Lebanon's armed forces?

(3) After Israel withdrew to the blue line, it only took 6 months for Hezbollah to start "playing over the blue line like sovereignty was toilet paper." Which they do in Lebanon, too, for their Mullah masters. It took 6 months for Hez to start trying to mass murder non-combatants, endangering all of Lebanon from a potential war.

(4) Ok, using your logic, Israel should now go in and kidnapp 10,000 Lebanese, put them in jail, and hold them until the soldiers ambushed on Israel's side of the border (typical Arab sneak attack) are released - and this will not be an act of war based on your "logic" (propaganda excuses) TRK. Right? Israel has the right, under your logic, to go into Lebanon and kidnapp people, and its not an act of war.

(5) Meanwhile, the "Lebanese" prisoners in Israel committed their crimes in Israel. It would be the same as a Russian committing a murder in the US, barring an extradition treaty, they'd be held in the US. (by the way, THESE are the peopel you stand for, TRK? what does that make you?)

Again, the prisoners argument is a BS excuse to legitimize attemtped murder of Jews (and condemn when those darn Jews actually fight back!)

As for Qana, lets see you fight a war without mistakes or collateral damage? And, hey, why don't you tell Hezbollah to stop firing from behind your women's skirts (or, say, from next to the hospital in Qana and other populated areas, as was shown by the video and reported by many Lebanese over the summer) - that helps to avoid collateral damage, and yet Hez seems to refuse to do it. Why? Cowardice, or sheer contempt for the lives of their neighbors? Or a combination of both??

[MGB8]

Flyovers don't actually breach 1701, as far as I know, it wasn't a specific part of the resolution. Implementation of 1559 (disarming Hez) and the return of the soldiers was.

I know, TRK, Israel can go and kidnapp 10,000 or so Lebanese from the Lebanon side of the border - that seems to be around the numbers all the Arabs demand for each Israeli soldier. And it won't be an act of war, under your logic.

[r2sputin]

I never understood why people cite Hizballah's desire to free Kuntar in their defense. You know, the people who say, "they're just fighting to release some Lebanese prisoners." I would think that their willingness to start a war over a man famous for murdering a 4 year old's father in front of her and then smashing her head in is a sign that they are dangerous lunatics. I mean, in addition to all the other evidence supporting this conclusion.

The funny part is that if Hizballah attacks Israel again, and a few thousand Lebanese civilians die as a result, but Kuntar ends up released, Hizballah will proclaim divine victory and parade in the streets for weeks. All because an unrepentant murderer was released, for the low low price of thousands of actual innocents. Well, it's not so much "funny" as it is "mind boggling" that an organization like this enjoys 30%+ support in Lebanon.

[KettleWhistle]

Flyovers don't actually breach 1701, as far as I know, it wasn't a specific part of the resolution. Implementation of 1559 (disarming Hez) and the return of the soldiers was.

I know, TRK, Israel can go and kidnapp 10,000 or so Lebanese from the Lebanon side of the border - that seems to be around the numbers all the Arabs demand for each Israeli soldier. And it won't be an act of war, under your logic.

Of course, it is a double standard. TRK claimed that the Lebanese respect the UN, yet neither resolution 1559 nor resolution 1701 have been honored.