REASONS: for Anti-Semitism

[citizenbfk]

I have 'crystallized,' I believe, certain cornerstone reasons for Anti-Semitism.

Issues #1) I'm not sure if you want to hear them.
Issues #2) I'm doubtful of their efficacy.

But perhaps discussing some of my thoughts about this topic may be of some value in the threads stated goal: "Tackling Anti-Semitism."

If anyone has any suggestion how to proceed, please post.

If this topic has no interest to anyone, that's fine; I have other things to do.

Sincerely,
citizenbfk: USA citizen/son of Irish Immigrants, life-time social and political activist, 5 children, writer & web designer; photographer and videographer.

[Cellis]

-If this topic has no interest to anyone, that's fine; I have other things to do

hey, I enjoyed it. Already this chapter of forum is dead. Thank you for posting.
ps. do you have a personal webpage where I can find your works? thanks.

ps. I have an idea about anti-semitism in youtube and how to wipe it off forever...

[Reffo]

citizenbfk

First look at the thread below and then if you have anything to add.....

What are your 5 most important indicators of an anti-semite?

Who knows, you might be able to explain to me why your five kids should be judged based on what they individually do or don't do but mine should be disliked, maybe even hated, just because they are Jewish kids (maybe even very young ones)!

By the way, are you going to be and advocate or just a messenger? I wouldn't mind getting that clear right from the outset.... (if you respond that is)....

[Mil]

The problem is that Jimmy Carter knows quite some about the Arab-Israeli conflict; in fact a lot more then even most experts on the Arab-Israeli conflict know; Jimmy Carter being one of the key people who in fact participated within the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Which brings into question why did Jimmy Carter chose a provocotive title and put a one-sided monuscript when he knows all the details and the comoplexities of this situation. At the least one would expect more of Jimmy Carter then this - at least more sophisticantion (being former president and such). I read the book and was not impressed at all. I think any mediocore scholar on the Middle East would right a better book and Jimmy Carter is definetly not one of the latter; I would think. The book reads more like a popular literature on the likes of Anne Colter or Michael Savage then a serious historical/political analysis one would expect from the sophisticated persona-expert like our former President. A president who presided over nothing less then Egypt-Israel peace accords; one of the few Major events in the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1948.

I have a few theories:

1. Jimmy Carter became senile at his age
2. Jimmy Carter has a political agenda of some sorts
3. Jimmy Carter wants to make some money and retain fame by controversy
4. Jimmy Carter does not like Jews
5. A combination of 1 to 4

[Illuminatus]

I have 'crystallized,' I believe, certain cornerstone reasons for Anti-Semitism.

I think this thread should discuss why citizenbfk is Anti-Semitic.

We can then start and proceed in all honestly and discuss the true nature and reasons for Anti-Semitism.

Tell us what books you've read, what lectures/conversations have you had. What imaginary opportunity, income or promotion or award or dream was lost or denied becuase of "the all consuming power of international jewery"?

What personal resentments do you harbor, probably passed down from dad or grandpa, what were your childhood/teeange/academic personal experiences that consumes and focuses your attention and resentments on Jews? What compels you to assert that the Jewish community in the US (or the world) controls governments, the media, international business, and the financial world?

.......and don't start by telling me: "I ain't no anti-semite...why in fact, some of best friends are Jews".

Like it or not, and as Jimmy Carter has found out throughout much of his political career, when you make the diabolical comparison of Israel to the Afrikaner system of permanently separating the indigenous black from the European white in all aspects of culture and society (A part heid) - that was no mere criticism of Israel, that was Anti-Semitism at its core.

A teenager by the name of Anne Frank wrote in a diary -- entry: April 11, 1944

[.. Who knows -- it might even be our religion from which the world and all peoples learn good, and for that reason and that reason alone do we now suffer. We can never become just Netherlanders, or just English, or representatives of any other country for that matter. We will always remain Jews. ..]

Is that what you resent citizenbfk? That that they remained Jews for thousand of years and all this time in the face of invasions, pograms, exile, empires, slaughter and evil?

The hard reality that the Nation of Israel and Judiasm are inexplicably linked is precisely where I say that Anti-Semites like Jimmy Carter (and Mel Gibson, who now claims he needs "therapy") fail to comprehend their own resentment.

(it is only fitting that Jimmy Carter now realilzes (too late) that his political legacy and memoirs will be forever magnified and tied to his personal hatreds and resentments, first and foremost)
------------

epilogue: had there been an Israel and an IDF in 1944, today that teen would have been an boring anonymous old lady to the world, and a dotting grandmother, a loving mom & a devoted wife to a few in Israel.

^_^

[Gilgamesh]

In a nut shell.

An anti semite is anybody (jew or gentile) who opposes one or more of the following points:
1. All humans deserve human rights.
2. Jews are humans.
3. Judaism is both a nation and a religion at the same time.
4. Self determination is a human right hense Jews deserve self determination.
5. Self defense is a human rights. Jews deserve the right of self defense.
6. Zionism is a political movement with the declared objective of securing the right of self-determination. The state of Israel is the manifestation of the right of self determination for Jews.
7. IDF is an instrument to manifest the right of self defense.
8. Jews do not have an hidden agenda.
9. Jews do not posses super natural powers.

[andak01]

In a nut shell.

An anti semite is anybody (jew or gentile) who opposes one or more of the following points:
1. All humans deserve human rights.

That says nothing about anything. What are human rights? You must be an anti-semite, because I can hardly believe that you think terrorists deserve human rights.

2. Jews are humans.

I'm sure plenty of anti-semites acknowledge Jews as human.

3. Judaism is both a nation and a religion at the same time.

That's a Jewish religious tenet that isn't even held by all Jews. Neither the continuation of Judaism nor the continuation of the state of Israel, nor for that matter the continuation of Zionism rests on whether everyone believes in it.

4. Self determination is a human right hense Jews deserve self determination.

Fine.

5. Self defense is a human rights. Jews deserve the right of self defense.

Absolutely. So does everyone else.

6. Zionism is a political movement with the declared objective of securing the right of self-determination. The state of Israel is the manifestation of the right of self determination for Jews.

You're contradicting yourself. If 3 is true, then Zionism isn't a political movement, it is a manifestation of Judaism. Why don't you cut to the chase and say that if you aren't Zionist, you are anti-semite?

7. IDF is an instrument to manifest the right of self defense.

That's fine. But just like everyone else, they should adher to international laws of engagement or be subject to scrutiny and criticism.

8. Jews do not have an hidden agenda.

I'll go farther. They don't have a single agenda.

9. Jews do not posses super natural powers.

Based on Jesus (SAW), I'd have to disagree.

[KettleWhistle]

9. Jews do not posses super natural powers.

Buster! I told my nephew he could grow up to be a superman.

[Illuminatus]

It bears repeating:

In a nut shell.

An anti semite is anybody (jew or gentile) who opposes one or more of the following points:

1. All humans deserve human rights.

2. Jews are humans.

3. Judaism is both a nation and a religion at the same time.

4. Self determination is a human right hense Jews deserve self determination.

5. Self defense is a human rights. Jews deserve the right of self defense.

6. Zionism is a political movement with the declared objective of securing the right of self-determination. The state of Israel is the manifestation of the right of self determination for Jews.

7. IDF is an instrument to manifest the right of self defense.

8. Jews do not have an hidden agenda.

9. Jews do not posses super natural powers.

The thread starter has tripped over every single one.

[Womble]

I think this thread should discuss why citizenbfk is Anti-Semitic.

Citizenbfk is a nutjob, whose posts are unreadable and whose brain is incapable of independent thinking. 99% of his posts are borrowed wholesale from propaganda website. Just Google a few lines from his post at random.

[KettleWhistle]

Well, reading citizenbfk's material reminds me of the following paragraph from an essay by a certain rather notorious journalist:

I've read Mein Kampf, and I gotta tell ya, I was expecting that book to be a lot more evil than it was. Hitler comes off as just a whiny fag; if he were born today, he'd have a Robert Smith hairdo and a stack of Depeche Mode records. The case Hitler makes against the Jews pales in comparison to the case that Jews make against themselves in the New Testament. Hitler would be booed off the stage of a Jewish self-hating convention; he'd get beaned with pomegranates and hooked with a shepherd's crook in the middle of his act. Hitler whines about the Jews being rich, manipulative backstabbers. Well boo-ing-hoo, Adolf! You sound like a ing taxi driver! After a few chapters of Mein Kampf, instead of getting some kind of evil rush, I wanted to say, like Hans and Franz, "Oo, listen to ze little girlie-girl Hitler who cahn't even handle ze juden beekahz zey haff ze mah-nee. Vhat's za matter, afraid aff a few juden, huh, girlie-girl?"

I think this thread should discuss why citizenbfk is Anti-Semitic.

We can then start and proceed in all honestly and discuss the true nature and reasons for Anti-Semitism.

Tell us what books you've read, what lectures/conversations have you had. What imaginary opportunity, income or promotion or award or dream was lost or denied becuase of "the all consuming power of international jewery"?

What personal resentments do you harbor, probably passed down from dad or grandpa, what were your childhood/teeange/academic personal experiences that consumes and focuses your attention and resentments on Jews? What compels you to assert that the Jewish community in the US (or the world) controls governments, the media, international business, and the financial world?

[russellb]

I'll reply to this at face value and assume that the poster is earnest in his intentions, although there may be evidence otherwise.

#1) Jews have taken over Hollywood.
#2) Jews hate Jesus; Jews killed Jesus
#3) People will " blame [a] target hate group for a disproportionate amount of the ills in their society. They use the target hate group as scapegoats.
#4) The penetration of the U.S. media by Israeli intelligence

I do not bring up this topic/thread lightly. Books and movies have been made about it. A common one, which I've read is: "Anti-Semite and Jew: An Exploration of the Etiology of Hate," written by Jean-Paul Sartre.

None of the examples posted above constitutes reasons for anti-Semitism. Each of these are accusations, largely gross exaggeration if not outright lies, propagated by anti-Semites to justify anti-Semitism. For them to constitute reasons for anti-Semitism, one would have to accept them as being truthful, which they are not.

A more recent title, which I have not read, is: "The Politics of Anti-Semitism," edited by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair and available for sale on Amazon.

From the review of read of this book, on Amazon, I think several here on this forum might label this text anti-Semitic although, if so, it doesn't sound like it is stridently anti-Semitic, at least, and I only mention it as an example that this is a topic that is discussed in the past and in the present and on sites as public as Amazon.com

Anything written by Cockburn on the matter of Israel, Zionism, or anti-Semitism must be taken with a gigantic grain of salt. Cockburn is a Marxist polemicist and pseudointellectual, with no important accomplishments to speak of. His definition of anti-Semitism is largely self-serving, and if one uses the criteria for anti-Semitism set out by the EUMC (now the EUAFR), then Cockburn clearly meets the criteria for anti-Semitism:


http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/...tion-draft.pdf

This academic piece discusses Cockburn briefly:

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-chanes-s04.htm

Finally, there is Alexander Cockburn. What has not already been said about Cockburn, a fine wordsmith, a sharp polemicist - and, frankly, an intractable foe of Jewish interests? The tropes of "the Israel lobby" resonate throughout The Politics of Anti-Semitism, a collection of essays (co-edited by Jeffrey St. Clair),14 that culminate in a self-serving complaint by Cockburn himself ("My life as an 'Anti-Semite'") in which he offers his definition of antisemitism: "to have written an item that pisses off someone at The New Republic."

In fact, Cockburn and St. Clair's book does serve a larger purpose (which justifies addressing it), in that it illuminates, as does Dershowitz's book, the nuanced and highly-permeable borders between criticism of the policies of the government of Israel and "Israelophobia" or anti-Israelism. In a word, "the new antisemitism."

This, I believe, would qualify for a fifth (5th) reason for anti-Semitism:

#5). Accusation of Israel practicing apartheid in Palestinian territories.

I understand there is a common reference to: "the whole nine yards," of reasons given for anti-Semitism

Another reason would have to be:

#6) Wars in the Middle East; violent conflicts with terrorist groups, Lebanon, Syria, and now very worrisome threats of attacks against Iran and even threats of using nuclear weapons (I think).

ALTHOUGH -- having made those last suggestion, Reasons #5 and #6, it might be far better and far more accurate to say they are not really reasons for anti-Semitism, but displeasure and disagreements with the policies of the State of Israel.

The accusation of apartheid towards Israel is purely rhetorical and lacks any important basis. Even Jimmy Carter stepped back from this accusation inhis talk at Brandeis and admitted that he used more for the purpose of provocative discussion then with intent towards accuracy.

The reality is that there are very few who argue points #5 and #6 in a manner which shows any in depth understanding of Israeli policies.

This might be a good place for me to stop, at this time, because it does hit the nail on the head of what I see is one of the most difficult entanglements and strong feelings about his issue, a potential mix-up that I see again and again; and again:

Jews making a direct correlation between criticism towards Israel with anti-Semitism.

This is a canard used by many who would have us believe that discussion of Israel's policies is stifled. In point of fact, it is usually made by those who have little to no knowledge of any Israeli policy.

Legitimate criticism of Israel's policies is not anti-Semitic. The singling out of Israel for unbalanced, one-sided criticism while ignoring its security concerns or denying its right to exist as a Jewish homeland does, more often than not, constitute a form of anti-Semitism

For immediate example, perhaps the book by former President Jimmy Carter: "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid," is the Perfect Example.

Overnight Jimmy Carter went from being a nice guy to being labeled an anti-Semite, as if he had written Mein Kampf, or something!

Not only do I see this false portray of Jimmy Carter based on this book as not only an extreme overreaction but also how this extreme over-reaction once again prevents the issues from being discussed!

Also, Jimmy Carter worked tirelessly for peace in the Israel-Palestine Conflict and had not Israeli Prime Minister Rabin not been assassinated by a right-wing fanatic perhaps a more peaceful situation could have happened.

He's a guy who has spent most of his retirement, for pete's sake, building homes for the homeless, which is far from proposing any group of people be marched off to gas chambers.

I have found reactions like current diatribes against Jimmy Carter very difficult to deal with.

While some have attempted to paint Carter as an outright anti-Semite, I don't share this point of view (it's much more nuanced than him being a pure anti-Semite), and the vast majority of critiques of his new book from mainstream Jewish sources have not called him anti-Semite. This is, again, largely a canard used by those who haven't carefully read what people such as Dershowitz have written. The crititicisms have been harsh towards Carter, but are mostly justified. But it is not the majority who have branded him an all-out anti-Semite.

I know, for example, that I could say: "O.J. Simpson is a murderer," or that Michael Jackson deserves his nickname of "Wacko Jacko," and almost NO BLACK PEOPLE WOULD THINK I WAS A RASCIST AGAINST BLACKS.

In fact, I think the majority of black people would agree with me, AND I think that those who would not agree with me still would NOT think of me as being a rascist for those comments.

Perhaps the latter is correct, but I disagree with the former. The race card was played heavily during the Simpson case.

BUT if I say something about, um...about Irving Lewis Libby, or Jack Abramoff suddenly the issue is treated as if I was attacking all Jews or trying to smear Jews.

I didn't even realise that Libby is Jewish. I have not seen a single mainstream Jewish media source indicate that attacks against Libby or Abramoff are attempts to smear Jews as a whole.

Perhaps this is a good point to end on, 4sure, since it is the cause of distress I find when trying to discuss any topic concerning any Jew or any issue with Israel.

You haven't made a clear argument at this point. For starters, you will need to comment on the first 4 points that you made regarding reasons for anti-Semitism. If you believe them to be true, then you will need to support your argument.

[Aviva]

A substantial difference in the thread you mentioned and my idea for this thread is that I was looking to talk about the reasons for anti-Semitism, not the indicators or definition of anti-Semitism, as the other thread focuses on.

The reasons for anti-Semitism historically begin with the Christian Church.

Everything else is a mixture of European racism, jealousy and historical prejudice and hatred towards a group of people who are proudly different, with no desire to assimilate into the majority population.

[Illuminatus]

The reasons for anti-Semitism historically begin with the Christian Church.

Not so fast!

Professor Peter Schafer of the Freie University of Berlin in his critically acclaimed book Judeophobia: Attitudes toward the Jews in the Ancient World writes that anti-semitism was first spread by "the Greek retelling of ancient Egyptian prejudices".

In view of the anti-Jewish writings of the Egyptian priest Manetho at the time, Schafer suggests that anti-semitism may have emerged "in Ancient Egypt".

Hatred, anomosity and Anti-Semitism was commonly faced by Jews in the Diaspora has been extensively documented by Dr. John M. G. Barclay of the University of Durham. In his book Jews in the Mediterranean Diaspora: From Alexander to Trajan (323 Bce to 117 Ce) he notes that the ancient Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria described an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in Flaccus, in which thousands of Jews died.

In the analysis of Professor Pieter W. Van Der Horst of the University of Amsterdam, prejudise and violent pograms in the ancient Greek, Hellenistic and Egyptian regions against the Jews were historically common. Japheth in the Tents of Shem: Studies on Jewish Hellenism in Antiquity.

Dr. Gideon Bohak of Tel Aviv University lectures that the 150 BCE suppression of Jewish religious practice by use of deadly force against civilians, as recounted in 1 Maccabees, and the prevailing propaganda qualifies as anti-semitism.

I understand that there's a archaeological study (to be release soon) at London University at its Institute of Historical Studies which postulates that Phoenician worshippers of Baal became anti-semitic and incorporated ritual killings of Jews in its ancient ceremonies. Although for the life of me, I can't phantom why Baal worshipers would be upset at Jews. Any Beelzebub Priests on this forum that can add to this? Mediocrates? MGB8? : )

^_^

[Gilgamesh]

I wish to add something to good ole Illuminatus:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus#Against_Apion
"against Apion" was Flavious Josuphus responce to 1st century ACE anti- semetic text.

All people of the region hated each other, considered themselves the Gods chosen and their neighbors as vain heratics. In actuality, Jews were demanded by their aggresive neighbors to accept foreign political-religious elite as rightful rullers, and not to produce comaptition or alternative to the all consuming totalitarian ragime of their neighbors.

Hate and broder fudes are not equall with anti semetism. Anti-semetism arises when Jews are singled out and their rights challenged, on a specific irrational basis.

Tradionaly, the first anti-semites were the Amalekians.
Not even pharoe the enslaver of Egypt, Nabuchadnetzer or Titus. All considered evil, but not classical anti-semetic by definition...