Home | I just read some dude`s post here, that compared Israel to the Nazis... That article might be a great read for him.
The headline is awful btw, but the article itself is rather informative, although gets a bit on the extremist side in some parts.
http://jewishworldreview.com/0702/perlmutter.html
Here is the best analysis of it that I have seen so far: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...8417#post18417 and a related thread: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=&threadid=979
Last edited by Vic; 07-30-2002 at 01:01 PM.
thank you for posting thatOriginally posted by Iori Yagami
http://jewishworldreview.com/0702/perlmutter.html
*waiting from some pro-Pal/anti-Israeli to say something smart about the article*
Hmm, I'll better seize the time and make some tea...
They don't say anything because the truth hits too close to home.*waiting from some pro-Pal/anti-Israeli to say something smart about the article*
I can't resist the bait.
First of all, I think that the article is pretty poor. There really seems to be a genre of pro-Israeli rhetoric (I'm sure every political position has the same sort of thing) that has a relatively simple and valid point to make, but that beats it to death far beyond what is reasonable. It is as if a majorette marches down the street and hesitates, marching in step in front of you long beyond the point where you smile and compliment her uniform, her steps, everything else you can think of, until you realize that she intends that you should fall into step behind her, picking up a pair of cymbals and a tall hat as you do. Perlmutter's is that sort of article.
So let it be said that comparisons of Israel to Nazi Germany -- the most cruel comparison that one can make for a Jew -- are in general unfair and unreasonable.
But at the same time, we have things like the thread called "The Arab Problem" (which has since been usurped by the more PC "Israel's Arab Citizen Quandary" thread) in this forum which just boggle the mind that supporters of a Jewish nation would ever use such terms (or, even after finding more PC terminology, to continue the discussion). I posted a message in that thread admonishing its participants for engaging in a discussion that followed a Nazi example almost exactly. Unfair? Unreasonable? Damn, I don't care! The thread was Nazi-like, as thankfully most people finally realized. (What they failed to realize was that it was not just the veneer of the terminology used that was Nazi-like.) Shame on anyone with any familiarity with the Holocaust for engaging in such a discussion, and shame on anyone in an "Israel Forum" with no familiarity with the Holocaust.
No, Israel has not had death camps and it has not endeavored to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. I suspect that it would be less "humanitarian" if it did not depend so much on foreign aid, but still it would never approach the abomination of the Nazi regime.
But at the same time, Israel shares with the Nazis an attitude of rabid nationalism. Not all Israelis, but not a small number, either. There were, at least at the beginning, "humanitarian" Nazis, who fully believed that Germany had to be ridded of its "Jewish influence," but who at the same time sought to accomplish this in a peaceful way. These Nazis -- and they were Nazis! -- wanted only to expel the Jews from Germany. Aside from the effect of the Nazi oxymoron of believing that an "inferior race" was somehow controlling all of society, which indicated that a minority population of only a few percent had to be expelled in order to preserve the German nature of their state, how different is this from the insistence on Israel remaining a Jewish state, and the policies proposed on this very forum to ensure that outcome? There are some paths, I think, that rabid nationalism will inevitably lead to, regardless of from where it starts.
There is perhaps something of the insistent majorette to be said about Israel-Nazi comparisons: if there is any validity to a comparison, all that should be needed is a single cymbal clap (maybe two) to wake an Israel supporter from a Nazi-like position. To parade such a comparison back and forth repeatedly is asinine.
whoa, that was the modest reasonable philip post i ever saw...
i dunno, i think a country can be nationalistic without being nazi-like...
i don't see the problem with israel making laws to ensure it always has a majority of jews. perhaps the title could have been worded better than "the arab problem" but still, i think it's a reasonable dilemma, and some kinds of laws should be implemented so that the tiny country of israel remains mostly jewish...
the fact that there are more arabs than in the world, shouldn't mean they should be able to control ALL lands in the middle east... most perohaps, but not all...
response to http://jewishworldreview.com/0702/perlmutter.html
[COLOR=dark-blue]Instead of proving that Jews are not behaving like Nazis, he attempts to prove that Arabs are![/COLOR]
Apparently, the guy who wrote the article has received no education on the subject at all, and that all his sources are what he hears from fellow ultra-orthodox Jews. That is to say, he has never read a book or done any research. Also, his logic is flawed: [COLOR=dark-blue]Instead of his thesis being: "Israel is not behaving like Nazis", his thesis is: "Arabs are Nazis!"[/COLOR] Well, even if this thesis had been argued correctly, and it obviously wasn't, this still does not refute the claim that Israelis are behaving like Nazis. This is like a thief saying: "there are a lot of criminals out there, so why am I being persecuted?!"
Anyways, let's get started.
[COLOR=dark-blue]Suffering the stones and arrows of blood libel is nothing new to Jews.[/COLOR]
Is the author by any chance trying to compare Palestinian children throwing stones at tanks during the first Intifada to Nazis in the Kristallnacht? What a nice start! If I stopped here it would've been enough to refute the whole article!
But I'll continue...
[COLOR=dark-blue]Butone Big Lie of the modern age has persisted that is especially cruel and destructive--intentionally so, of course--that Israel has behaved like Nazi Germany, and that various Israeli leaders, from Ben Gurion to Sharon, are "another Hitler."[/COLOR]
First step is learning how to write essays: never make unsubstantial claims. First of all, this comparison has never been adapted officially by any country. Secondly, it is only used by leftist, young, demonstrators. Thirdly, even the most extreme leftists never say that " various Israeli leaders, from Ben Gurion to Sharon, are 'another Hitler.'" Ben Gurion is never accused of being a Hitler, neither is any other leftist Prime Ministers. The only PMs accused of being Hitlers are Begin, Natanyaho, and Sharon.
So the whole thesis is refuted and again, there is no need to continue, but I will.
[COLOR=dark-blue]If the simile of evil were spewed only from some crackpot Aryan website, octogenarian Bavarian Nazi, addled Berkeley Stalinist, or obscure Islamic radical, it would be comic. But it is increasingly a mainstream broadcast. It strikes from hundreds of signs at the UN conference on racism in South Africa, to many left and right wing commentary journals, European newspaper opinion and editorial pages, cosmopolitan intellectuals and, of course, from a thousand "respectable" voices in the Arab and Muslim world--including those here in the United States.[/COLOR]
What can I add to what I sad above? Mainstream broadcast? give me a break. Hundreds of signs? hardly. Opinion pages? maybe. You have to distinguish between opinion pages, and what you call "mainstream" media.
[COLOR=dark-blue]The sadism behind such defamations needs no subtle psychoanalysis to explain. But as a war historian, I think the defamation raises a larger question.[/COLOR]
Sadism? Do you know what sadism is? It is getting pleasure from torturing people! So all youngsters who hold these signs are now sadistic? And o, btw, I do not believe the "war historian" part.
[COLOR=dark-blue]Israel is increasingly surrounded by enemies better and better armed by American taxpayers and motorists, and soon to wield weapons of mass destruction.[/COLOR]
Taxpayers and motorists? As far as I know, _all_ weapons are purchased. And the only neighboring country purchasing weapons from the U.S. is Egypt, a country that has a peace treaty with Israel, or at least, a country that is not at war with Israel anymore. And since you brought the tax-money issue, why do not you tell the taxpayers and motorists that Israel receives 20 million dollars every workday? They would not be very happy to hear this.
[COLOR=dark-blue]As it becomes clear that the ranks of "moderates" in the Arab and Muslim world are pita-thin, and Israelis are repeatedly murdered just for the crime of being living Jews, isn't it time to ask what it would mean if Israel and its leaders had made the slander a reality?[/COLOR]
Again, another lie. Before Israel, a million Jews lived in Arab countries. Why were not they murdered because of being "Jew"? Why aren't Jews in Europe targeted? Yes, few incidents happen here and there, but obviously they are not being targeted because of being Jew. Nice try though.
[COLOR=dark-blue]First, a bit of sanity. Ironically, it is the connection between Islam, the Palestinians and the Nazis that is more fertile fodder for conspiracy theorists. Indeed if I were as much of a Palestinian hater as their political and intellectual leaders hate Jews I could make the irrefutable statement that Adolph Hitler was the godfather of the Palestinian people.[/COLOR]
First of all, you do hate the Palestinians. Second of all, you already are saying that Hitler is the godfather of Palestinians. Third of all, why is it necessary to be a hater in order to make a supposedly "irrefutable" statement?
[COLOR=dark-blue]It was he who gave haven to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who in turn learned everything about nationalism from the Third Reich. And didn't Hitler say that Islam was the only religion he respected?
[/COLOR]
Ok here comes the good stuff. First of all, when did Hitler say Islam is the only religion he respected? He supposedly said he "respected Islam," and this statement is even debatable. And for your information, Arabs were next on the hit list after the Jews.
Second point. You talked about the Mufti of Jerusalem.
The way I understood this remark is that the Palestinian people must pay the price for the collaboration of a single person with the Nazis. Very nice. But you forgot to mention that the Palestinians, and Arabs in general, sided with allies and fought with the British colonial troops! They have also ignored the call for Jihad, against the British, declared by t he SAME mufti in April 1941. What does this tell you about the popularity of this mufti? It should be noted that several Palestinian brigades were enlisted into the British Army, and Palestinian resistance to the British occupation almost completely ceased during and after WW II.
But the truth cannot be more shocking for Jews. It has been proven that the Stern Jewish Gang received funding and arms from the fascists to resist the British Mandate in Palestine. Yes, this actually was happening while their Jewish brothers were being gassed and burned in Nazi concentration camps!!! When the American, British, and their Arab allies were busy stopping the Desert Fox (Erwin Romel) in Egypt, ((Yitzhak Shamir)) and Irgun's ((Menachem Begin)) were busy killing British soldiers, blowing up the vital Haifa-Cairo railroad supplies line, and terrorizing British and Arab citizens. When Yitzhak Shamir, Israel's future president in the 1980s, was asked to explain their collaboration with the Fascists, he replied:
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
How nice of them!
[COLOR=dark-blue]It was the Nazis, too, who raised Muslim Waffen-SS divisions in the Balkans and eastern Europe and trained them with anti-Jewish tracts.[/COLOR]
So what? Why should the Palestinians pay the price of what Bosnians did? And wasn't all of Europe, people and governments, openly cooperating with the Nazis? Didn't the Greek and Yugoslavians happily turn their Jews to the SS? And let us assume that all Muslims are linked to each other, answer this: where did the Jews run when they were being massacred? Did not they run to Albania? An Islamic country? Did you say you are a war historian?
__________________________________________________ _
TO BE CONTINUED....................
Last edited by Haifa; 08-25-2002 at 01:15 PM.
..................CONTINUED
__________________________________________________ _
[COLOR=dark-blue]In fact, scholars could spend years detailing the exact parallels between Nazi ideology, symbolism, slogans, and racial theory and that of the PLO.[/COLOR]
Wow! I have one question: how did you manage to suddenly jump from the 30s and 40s to the 70s? And can you tell us what is the PLO racial theory? As far as I know, until 1975, they were seeking a secular state for Arabs and Jews! Again, you are resorting to unsubstantial claim. Are you sure you are a war historian as you claim?
[COLOR=dark-blue]And of course, it is our good friends the Egyptians and Saudis who hid Nazi war criminals, worked with the ODESSA, and still keep "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in print. Didn't the official newspaper of the House of Saud just assure its readers that Jewish women use children's blood for Purim pastries? The average Arab newspaper smells no different than a run of Der Sturmer.[/COLOR]
Well, you maybe a war historian, but you are a liar. I challenge you to find a Published Arabic translation of "protocols of elders of Zion." I challenge you. About blood in Purim parties, these stories are in German and French Christian culture, dummy. They were not invented by Arabs, and you DO know it.
[COLOR=dark-blue]But let's take the original accusation about Israel being like Nazi Germany seriously, and play a deadly game of historical "what if."[/COLOR]
First of all who said Israel is a Nazi state? The most extremist statement would be "behaving like Nazis," not Nazis.
[COLOR=dark-blue]If in 1948, 1956, 1967 or 1973 Israel had exterminated every Muslim man, woman, and child who lived between the Sinai and the Jordan, then there would be no Palestinians left to terrorize the Jewish state. Today Israelis would shop, marry, and play unmolested.[/COLOR]
Well, over 100,000 Arabs have died. If you could kill more you would have probably done it. After all, aren’t there a large group of people calling for transfer? So I do not know what your point is. And why do you use the word "Muslim" and manipulate your Christian audience? Why do not you say that thousands of Christians were also massacred?
And the assumption that after killing millions of people you would be left to shop, marry, and play is just stupid. I have no comment on this.
[COLOR=dark-blue]And being "Hitlerian", the bloodthirsty Golda Meirs and Begins and Rabins would have been uncompromisingly expansionist. Certainly, Hitler did not believe in surrendering an inch of territory his armies seized. So Israel would not only have blitzed the Sinai and Golan Heights but would have also driven victoriously to Tunis and Basra. Yesterday Gaza, tomorrow the world, right?[/COLOR]
Are you stupid or pretending to be? Did I not say that the only PMs accused of Being nazi are Natanyahu, begin, Shamir, and Sharon? Heck, they are not even accused of being Nazi. Their actions are merely compared to Nazis! Also, about driving to Iraq and Cairo, read my post in the Peace Think Tank Forum. And trust me, if they could do it, they would have!
[COLOR=dark-blue]Also, a Nazi Israel would make a non-aggression pact with other superpowers and swallow up the inferior states, smash and kill all the inhabitants, and laugh at any concept of peace. A great Jewish empire would sit atop buried mounds of Arab skulls and Persian Gulf oil; in fact, there would be no living Arabs today, rather than the 100 million that seem to have survived on 99% of the land in the Middle East, despite Israeli aggression.[/COLOR]
Yes, Israel already has non-aggression pacts with the super powers! About not taking all of the middle east, and since Israelis love to talk about Jewish history, let us talk about Jewish history: did not they do it with the Canaanites after inventing a story about God ordering them to kill everyone. Also, they have limited resources, plus international pressure plus everything. Claiming that if they were Nazis they would have done it is just obscure. Your just talking rubbish with no substance!
[COLOR=dark-blue]None of this, of course, has happened. Millions of Palestinians live in Israel with a better standard of living and more civil freedoms than their brethren in any Arab nation. The sum total of Israeli genocide is to shoot at terrorists. Indeed, crowds of Arab youths throw stones precisely because they know they will not be rounded up, marched to a pit, and executed.[/COLOR]
Give me a break! How many people entered Israeli jails in the first Intifada? Wasn’t the death toll 10 Arabs : 1 Jew?
[COLOR=dark-blue]And what of those massive funerals for the Hamas "martyrs," full of young men boasting their willingness to die for their cause? Wouldn't a Nazi/Israeli general drop a nice fat cluster bomb into their shouting mouths?[/COLOR]
they would if there was no international community.
[COLOR=dark-blue]And of course, a Haifa Hitler would have not failed to use those hydrogen bombs Israel has been building for 30 years--yet, we see no mushroom clouds over Cairo or Baghdad. (In contrast both Syrian and Iranian leaders have vowed that the moment the get the bomb, they will use it on the Jewish state.)[/COLOR]
Well, again, you would if it was possible. But NO COUNTRY is willing to be the first to throw a bomb. Also, you said Saddam promised to throw a bomb. Big deal. Didn't he also promise to send an army of 1 million men to Jerusalem? I do not see anything.
[COLOR=dark-blue]Yes, if Israelis had been Nazis there would be no Palestinian problem and Israel would be a green and pleasant land. Unfortunately Jews seem to have a suicidal moral consciousness even when in positions of power. The Jews did not act like Crusaders, or Jihadists or the SS, and every day they pay a price for their restraint in their own children's blood.[/COLOR]
What does agriculture and green land have to do with this? And yes, they are not crusaders or SS, but some of their actions are.
[COLOR=dark-blue]Still I have to warn all those who insist on gleefully calling Israel a Nazi state: one day the Jews may cry to the heavens (or the opposite direction) in exasperation and declare, "If only!" Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.[/COLOR]
So you are saying that there is a chance that the Jews will become Nazis if people call them Nazis?
Response to
http://jewishworldreview.com/0702/perlmutter.html
Oh, and by the way, this multiple-hours effort of research, checking books and references, and writing, is dedicated to you, Moon.
Sincerely,
Haifa
I remember one was shown in a news segment about a book fair in Gaza not long ago (admittidly, I don't remember for sure if it was in Arabic). As for the blood libel, the article didn't say it originated in Arab countries, but that it was used by them (notably by Syria, and recently in Saudi Arabia - you can find the article easily by entering "blood" "purim", and "saudi" in the search engine of your choice).Originally posted by Haifa
Well, you maybe a war historian, but you are a liar. I challenge you to find a Published Arabic translation of "protocols of elders of Zion." I challenge you. About blood in Purim parties, these stories are in German and French Christian culture, dummy. They were not invented by Arabs, and you DO know it.[/b]
Well, Magen David=Swastika seems pretty plain... (appeared in Durban, among other places)
First of all who said Israel is a Nazi state? The most extremist statement would be "behaving like Nazis," not Nazis.
So decide, is it hundreds of thousands, or millions? And where did you get your figures? And if Israel had made the attempt, Arab dead WOULD number in the millions. We could have simply surrounded refugee camps and bombed the **** out of them with artillery (which would have saved us a lot of casualties.
Well, over 100,000 Arabs have died. If you could kill more you would have probably done it. After all, aren’t there a large group of people calling for transfer? So I do not know what your point is. And why do you use the word "Muslim" and manipulate your Christian audience? Why do not you say that thousands of Christians were also massacred?
And the assumption that after killing millions of people you would be left to shop, marry, and play is just stupid. I have no comment on this.
Ya, I don't understand how people can claim Israel is trying to kill its Arab/Muslim population. It would save a lot more life/time/money/trouble for Israel just to bomb refugee camps, Arab/Muslim towns, and for all the odds and ends just send in about 50000 group troops. They both that the same outcome, so why would Israel waste so much to accpomish the same so called "goal"? It dosn't make sense because........................................... .................................................. ..............lies usually don't.Originally posted by eyl
And if Israel had made the attempt, Arab dead WOULD number in the millions. We could have simply surrounded refugee camps and bombed the **** out of them with artillery (which would have saved us a lot of casualties.
The thesis of my post was not to prove that Israel is a Nazi state, because it is not. But it was to show that the arguments presented aren't good at all. There are other ways to show that Israel is not Nazi other than calling palestinians Nazi.
-eyl, yes I have read some articles saying it appeared in syrian newspapers. And sorry for using words like stupid and dummy. I apparently god carried away and forgot that the guy isnt here
-About the Star = Nazi, I saw it, but as I said, they are young, leftist, demonstrators. These signs should not be there anyways because the star of david has a religious connotation. I'm sure that muslims would not like it if the crescent was equated with the swastika.
But still, no one, even radical leftists, explicitly said Israel is Nazi. What I hear from people is that some actions can be compared to Nazis. Again, this goes to show that the thesis of the article and the arguments arent good.
-about the "over 100,000 number" of casualties, this includes soldiers and civilians in all wars. If you take into consideration that Arabs lost over 15,000 in only 6 days, the number does not seem big at all.
I will try to find a source for the number, but it is in the 100,000 range.
About why it did not kill them, I answered
1- international criticism
2- liberal and leftist israelis
If shas was in power im sure they would be more than happy to do it.
Isn't this true of a lot of countries though? It is certainly true of the Palestinians, whose uprising is surely based on the drive for self-determination and nationalist sentiment.But at the same time, Israel shares with the Nazis an attitude of rabid nationalism.
And the article was bad. Appalling, in fact. Haifa - fantastic response!! You may have made it for Moon, but I sure appreciated it too!
Shas is right wing?? I always thought they were left wing?Originally posted by Haifa
If shas was in power im sure they would be more than happy to do it.
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