Deficiency

[Agnosthiest]

"Allah's Apostle once said to a group of women : 'I have not seen any one more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious, sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked: 'O Allah's Apostle, what is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said: 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency of your intelligence' ... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said: 'This is the deficiency in your religion.'"

-Sahih Bukhari, Arabic-English translation, vol. 1, 1 Hadith No. 301. See also vol. 3, Hadith No. 826.

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What is the religion of Muslim women? ISLAM.

By Mohammad's logic:

"Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' 'This is the deficiency in their religion, ISLAM"


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How about in Judaism, can women pray during her period?

[varian]

... How about in Judaism, can women pray during her period?

Is that before or after taking Midol???

[andak01]

I didn't read the original Arabic, but I imagine it contains the word Iman. People I know refer to your Iman (faith) or your Deen (life), meaning the individual's level of religion. Your Iman means what level YOU have achieved, not what level the religion has achieved.

As for other sayings, your evil stereotype of the Prophet betrays his actual kindness, charity and sense of humor. He wasn't always running around with a sword threatening people, he often behaved playfully.

"After the Farewell Pilgrimage at the Eid prayer, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) walked past the men leaning on Bilal's arm, and came to the rows of women behind them. Bilal spread out a cloth and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) urged the women to be generous with their gifts of charity, for when he had been allowed a glimpse into the flames of Hell, he had noted that most of the people being tormented there were women. The women were outraged, and one of them instantly stood up boldly and demanded to know why that was so. 'Because,' he replied, 'you women grumble so much, and show ingratitude to your husbands! Even if the poor fellows spent all their lives doing good things for you, you have only to be upset at the least thing and you will say, 'I have never received any good from you!' (Bukhari 1.28, recorded by Ibn Abbas - who was present on that occasion as a child). At that the women began vigorously to pull off their rings and ear-rings, and throw them into Bilal's cloth."


In conclusion, we need to remove the meaning of the words of the Prophet upon him blessings and peace, from our contemporary context of sour feminism and the clash of the sexes, and replace it into its proper context: namely, a parting, wartime exhortation using certain figures of speech which are not meant literally, nor are women the issue although they are addressed pointedly and, as it were, by the scruff of their gender; but rather, to trigger among wealthy and sensible citizens acts of generosity for the greater good while reminding them that life is fleeting and thankfulness a surer way to Paradise than despair.


http://www.livingislam.org/k/wiha_e.html

[Mediocrates]

How about in Judaism, can women pray during her period?

Yes.

[andak01]

The Prophet wasn't always running around with a sword threatening people. He had a sense of humor which quoting him out of context or within our context half a world away and fourteen centuries later doesn't capture.

"After the Farewell Pilgrimage at the Eid prayer, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) walked past the men leaning on Bilal's arm, and came to the rows of women behind them. Bilal spread out a cloth and the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) urged the women to be generous with their gifts of charity, for when he had been allowed a glimpse into the flames of Hell, he had noted that most of the people being tormented there were women. The women were outraged, and one of them instantly stood up boldly and demanded to know why that was so. 'Because,' he replied, 'you women grumble so much, and show ingratitude to your husbands! Even if the poor fellows spent all their lives doing good things for you, you have only to be upset at the least thing and you will say, 'I have never received any good from you!' (Bukhari 1.28, recorded by Ibn Abbas - who was present on that occasion as a child). At that the women began vigorously to pull off their rings and ear-rings, and throw them into Bilal's cloth."


In conclusion, we need to remove the meaning of the words of the Prophet upon him blessings and peace, from our contemporary context of sour feminism and the clash of the sexes, and replace it into its proper context: namely, a parting, wartime exhortation using certain figures of speech which are not meant literally, nor are women the issue although they are addressed pointedly and, as it were, by the scruff of their gender; but rather, to trigger among wealthy and sensible citizens acts of generosity for the greater good while reminding them that life is fleeting and thankfulness a surer way to Paradise than despair.


http://www.livingislam.org/k/wiha_e.html

[andak01]

A Jewish woman isn't required to make sujood (prostration). Bending over repeatedly would be quite painful for a woman in menses. Therefore not being required to pray at that time is a kindness for women.

[Illuminatus]

replace it into its proper context: namely, a parting, wartime exhortation using certain figures of speech which are not meant literally

Islam-Online.net operated by the highly regarded Sunni Mufti & Scholar: Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, replies.

[..It is often difficult for a Muslim woman to understand why she is unable to make salah (ritual prayer) for five days or so.

Many may feel that it is a limitation on them due to their gender. Others may misunderstand this, and think that they can not engage in any Islamic activities through the duration of their menses.

This is simply not so. Many women suffer from extreme cramps, heavy bleeding, nausea, headaches, and other maladies during their cycle. It is truly a sign of the mercy of Allah Almighty that we are excused from prayer during this time. I know more than one sister who would be unable to perform the physical duties of the prayer during her cycle. ..]

IslamOnline: Ask About Islam

So its really a reason to be thankful for an act of "mercy of Allah Almighty".

^_^

[andak01]

In case it wasn't clear enough by putting it in two separate posts with two separate headers, I was talking about two separate issues.

1) A hadith where the term YOUR RELIGION is twisted from its actual meaning to mean Islam. When you ask your child: "How is YOUR ALGEBRA doing?" You aren't asking about the state of that branch of mathematics. If you say YOUR ALGEBRA is poor. You aren't making a comment that Algebra is a faulty science. So let's get that straight. Agnosthiest is playing the agitator. Agnosthiest, YOUR REASON is faulty. Or, put another way- this is a deficiency in YOUR REASON.

2) Whether or not women should pray during menses.

[Agnosthiest]

Bending over repeatedly would be quite painful for a woman in menses.

Is it really? Says who?

Therefore not being required to pray at that time is a kindness for women.

1. "not being required" and "total prohibition" are two different things.

2. instead of total prohibition would it not make a lot more sense to just allow women to pray without prostrating?

[Agnosthiest]

It is truly a sign of the mercy of Allah Almighty that we are excused from prayer during this time. I know more than one sister who would be unable to perform the physical duties of the prayer during her cycle.

So its really a reason to be thankful for an act of "mercy of Allah Almighty".

however the way mohammad said those words imply that it was a handicap, rather than a blessing.

[andak01]

however the way mohammad said those words imply that it was a handicap, rather than a blessing.

I'm sorry, but since when do you know "the way" someone spoke words in another language 14 centuries ago? Since when do you get your opinion of what he said from anything other than prophetofdoom or some other such hate site? Since when is your interest in what he said not confined strictly to an interpretation that dehumanizes Muslims? Since when do you bother to ask a Muslim, native speaking Arab for an interpretation in preference to a translation by a Christian missionary?

How would someone, taking your approach, study Judaism? They'd go to David Duke's website to learn about the Talmud. They'd refuse to believe anything a Jew had to say about it. And you know, that person would miss out on a lot that is beautiful, engaging and constructive, all because of their closed mind.

[Agnosthiest]

I'm sorry, but since when do you know "the way" someone spoke words in another language 14 centuries ago?

since reading the whole context...

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."


1. Mohammad generalized women
2. Mohammad demeaned the women...recklessly alleging that they curse frequently and are ungrateful to their husbands. recklessly belittling their intelligence.

Thats one way of seeing "the way", by seeing what someone actually said and why. From the same procedure we can also deduce "the way" Jesus said things. "The way" Pope Urban said things. "The way" Napoleon said things.

right?

Since when do you get your opinion of what he said from anything other than prophetofdoom or some other such hate site?

since seeing this useful muslim resource site...

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

prophetofdoom? believe it or not, ive never visited that site YET.

Since when is your interest in what he said not confined strictly to an interpretation that dehumanizes Muslims?

believe it or not I am also interested in other stuff about Mohammad. like his pre-prophetic life.

Since when do you bother to ask a Muslim, native speaking Arab for an interpretation in preference to a translation by a Christian missionary?

As you can see that was muslim translation. Obviously by arab linguists.

Please try not to shoot first.

How would someone, taking your approach, study Judaism? They'd go to David Duke's website to learn about the Talmud. They'd refuse to believe anything a Jew had to say about it. And you know, that person would miss out on a lot that is beautiful, engaging and constructive, all because of their closed mind.

Hey I listen to what jews say everytime they answer my questions.

[andak01]

since reading the whole context...

That isn't even close to the whole context. There is a whole science of Hadith study that takes into account who related a hadith and many other factors. It isn't something you arrive at by visiting a website. To begin with, a Muslim would never relate a hadith without including the isnad, or chain of narration. There are individual biographies for every single person that ever appears in a chain of narration. From that you could determine how reliable the narrator is and even how old they were and their state of health when the hadith was first spoken.

Also, it would seem that the context for 7th century speech for you is 21st century feminism. I'd like to see how kind to women's rights were 7th century Rabbis.

Thats one way of seeing "the way", by seeing what someone actually said and why. From the same procedure we can also deduce "the way" Jesus said things. "The way" Pope Urban said things. "The way" Napoleon said things.

right?

Assuming you could place what they said within the context of their life.

prophetofdoom? believe it or not, ive never visited that site YET.

You belong there along with your friends.

believe it or not I am also interested in other stuff about Mohammad. like his pre-prophetic life.

And what if you turned up a scrap about him that caused you to feel anything other than revulsion for him?

What if I told you about the number of times that Muhammad (SAW) freed slaves, committed acts of charity, forgave his enemies? Would any of that register with you?

HINT: The entire Book 46 of Bukhari deals with the manumission (buying freedom for) of slaves.

The Prophet said, "Whoever frees a Muslim slave, Allah will save all the parts of his body from the (Hell) Fire as he has freed the body-parts of the slave." Said bin Marjana said that he narrated that Hadith to 'Ali bin Al-Husain and he freed his slave for whom 'Abdullah bin Ja'far had offered him ten thousand Dirhams or one-thousand Dinars.

Hind bint Utbah who resided over the mutilation of corpses after the Battle of Uhud was given amnesty following the entry of the Muslims into Mecca.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hind_bint_Utbah



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...i/046.sbt.html

[Agnosthiest]

Hey we are missing the most important points here....

Bending over repeatedly would be quite painful for a woman in menses.

Is it really? Says who?

Therefore not being required to pray at that time is a kindness for women.

1. "not being required" and "total prohibition" are two different things.

2. instead of total prohibition would it not make a lot more sense to just allow women to pray without prostrating?

[Agnosthiest]

That isn't even close to the whole context. There is a whole science of Hadith study that takes into account who related a hadith and many other factors. It isn't something you arrive at by visiting a website. To begin with, a Muslim would never relate a hadith without including the isnad, or chain of narration. There are individual biographies for every single person that ever appears in a chain of narration. From that you could determine how reliable the narrator is and even how old they were and their state of health when the hadith was first spoken.

If what I said contradicts the further edges of the context, then do point it out. So far what you said proves nothing.

Also, it would seem that the context for 7th century speech for you is 21st century feminism. I'd like to see how kind to women's rights were 7th century Rabbis.

The clerics of a religion does not matter as much compared to the actual founders of a religion. Use people of similar status. Like Buddha, Joseph Smith, Moses and L.Ron Hubbard. For the words of these people are often seen as timeless. As applicable then as it is today.

Assuming you could place what they said within the context of their life.

And in the context of Mohammad’s life women are seen as inferior to men. So what I said is still correct in this aspect.

You belong there along with your friends.

Relax, bud. Remember the Golden Rule. You wouldn’t want me to say the same thing about you. There are a lot of hellish places in the ummah where a muslim belongs.

And what if you turned up a scrap about him that caused you to feel anything other than revulsion for him?

What if I told you about the number of times that Muhammad (SAW) freed slaves, committed acts of charity, forgave his enemies? Would any of that register with you?

I know those already. The way I see Mohammad, he was mostly a man of kindness, and sometimes a man of utmost cruelty. Sort of like me.


PS, hey dont forget my post right above this.