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Thread: Right of Return makes the Saudi plan impossible

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Right of Return makes the Saudi plan impossible

    http://www.memri.org/bin/opener_latest.cgi?ID=SD152507
    Liberal Author Mamoun Fandy: Adding of the Right of Return to the Saudi Initiative Changed It From 'The Start of an Earnest Dialogue' to 'An Initiative Impossible to Implement'
    In an article in the London daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat on March 26, 2007, the eve of the Arab League summit in Riyadh, liberal author Dr. Mamoun Fandy wrote on the Arabs' tendency to leave obstructions to development in place rather than remove them, comparing these issues to rocks left in the middle of the road.

    In particular, he points to the Palestinian issue as one that has drained the energies of the Arab states for more than 50 years, and calls on the conferees at the summit to remove the demand for the return of Palestinian refugees from the Arab peace initiative in order to arrive at a practical and realistic solution to the Palestinian issue.
    The following are excerpts: [1]

    "For 50 Years the Arabs Have Been Walking Around the Palestinian Issue"
    "King 'Abdallah Bin 'Abd Al-'Aziz's initiative has traveled the breadth and width of the Arab states and the world since 2002, until they [i.e. the Arabs] returned to it once more in Riyadh in 2007.

    "It was inevitable that the initiative, like every Arab dossier, would tour like this… [The Arabs] have become convinced today that this tour is no solution, and have returned to the land of the 2002 initiative for the Riyadh summit… [But] the basic problem for the [summit] conferees can still be summed up in one word: 'rock.'

    "I am referring to… the boulder placed in the middle of the public road, which is surrounded by the cries of those with a vested interest in its remaining in place.
    "In every country in the world, when a rock obstructs a road, the municipality hurries to move it aside to facilitate the flow of traffic. However, in the Arab world, someone throws a rock in the road, and instead of moving it aside, those claiming to be of sound judgment come up with [what they consider] the ideal way to deal with the problem of the rock - namely, placing a sign above it saying "Careful of the Rock."
    "The worst thing is that tending to the rock requires, in the long term, entire institutions - from the workers who man the shifts at night carrying lanterns to light up the sign above the rock, to the construction of an overpass to circumvent the rock, or the digging of an underpass.

    "One of the most important responsibilities of the Riyadh summit is to get rid of the rock, instead of placing a warning sign on it and going around it.

    "The rocks that stand in the path of our success and our development are many, from all our institutions… to our international relations. But I will be blunt right from the start, and say that leaving the Palestinian issue for 50 years without an ultimate solution is the largest rock blocking the road of Arab development. Either we remove this rock from the road with a fundamental and permanent solution, or else we continue building overpasses and underpasses.

    "For 50 years, the Arabs have been walking around the Palestinian issue. They started newspapers and broadcasts and TV stations for this issue, and produced writers and analysts and intellectuals for this issue, and readied tremendous armies and allocated fat budgets to this issue, but none of this advanced a solution or was of any benefit. All of this just rallied under the sign 'Careful of the Rock.'"

    By Including the Right of Return, the Arabs "Emptied the [Saudi] Initiative of its Content"
    "The strange thing is that the Palestinian issue did not merely make the Arabs uphold leaving it like a rock [obstructing] development in their countries, but has even made the Israelis share these same feelings with us, since it is in their interest to leave the issue of Palestine as a rock in the region. The Americans joined in the process [as well,] and began to draw up a map to avoid the rock, instead of removing the pitfall from the road.

    "It was King 'Abdullah Bin 'Abd Al-'Aziz alone who proposed [this] earnest initiative at the Beirut summit in 2002, and it was the start of an earnest dialogue to resolve the issue of Palestine. But the 'rock crowd' added to it the issue of the return of the Palestinian refugees, in order to change it from an earnest initiative suitable for a comprehensive solution, that made the most of the existing realities, into an initiative that was impossible to implement, [and] not much different than the unimplemented Security Council resolutions. In so doing, they emptied the Saudi initiative of its content, and left the Palestine issue as a rock, so that they can carry the lanterns that light up the sign hung on the rock, and so they can shout at us, 'Careful of the rock!'

    "[When] the initiative is proposed again now in Riyadh, it must be a courageous proposal that does not bow to the 'rock lobby.' The Palestinian issue must be solved, as a basis for the solution of all of the pending questions in the region.
    "I personally consider it auspicious that representatives from Malaysia, Indonesia, and Turkey are present at this summit, since we, as Arabs, have over the last 50 years become accustomed to [seeing the Palestinian issue as] a knotty issue that only the prophets can unravel - so that for us it has reached the level of sanctity. Perhaps those coming from afar have a courageous, outside perspective that can help us call things by their [true] names and help us see the issue of Palestine as one that can be resolved through clarity of vision, without exaggerating its sanctity."
    Some Conferees Will Come "Armed to the Teeth With Their Media Militias" and Will Say that the "Iranian Rock Blocking Peace and Security is an 'Islamic Rock'"
    "The [second] rock that the Riyadh summit must deal with is… the export of extremism, which has become the Arabs' second [largest] export after oil. The conferees need to discuss clearly and transparently the downturn in the security situation in Iraq, and the suicide terrorists who blow themselves up there, even in the houses of Allah. They didn't come out of [thin] air, nor did they come to Iraq through the air, [but rather came to Iraq from neighboring countries].

    "The responsibility for combating terrorism is weighty and is shared [by all], and it calls for an urgent collective effort that cannot stand delay. But some of the conferees in Riyadh claim that America alone is responsible for the destruction… This claim is an attempt to evade responsibility and to leap over the rock via an overpass.

    "The Riyadh summit must address [the issue of a] nuclear Iran, another large rock placed in the center of the Middle East, despite its complexities. Naturally, there will be at the summit a significant group of politicians armed to the teeth with their media militias, who will say that the Iranian rock blocking peace and security in the region is 'an Islamic rock,' and that 'the intervention of America or Europe in this matter is humiliating to the feelings of the Muslims,' and that 'moving this rock is an offense to Islam and the Muslims'…
    "Education in the Arab world could also be considered a large rock in the path of development, to which the coming Arab summit should pay heed. This is especially [true] since we know that not a single university in the Arab world offers an intellectual product for the world's consideration - unless we take into account some of the universities' specialization in producing 'software' for terrorism and a [terrorist] mentality. Our education ministers claim that it is impossible to do better, and that the budgets allocated to them are insufficient, and that there is no choice but to establish private universities, on the condition that they not teach the curricula of the 'infidels.' This is an ingenious solution, much like the solution of employing workers with lanterns at night to call pedestrians' attention to the rock placed in the middle of the path.
    "What the coming Arab summit in Riyadh must do is move aside the heavy rocks [obstructing] growth, development, and peace in the Arab world, and not shirk its responsibilities… and circle around them, or build bridges and tunnels above and below them.

    "The Arab world expects King 'Abdullah Bin 'Abd Al-'Aziz… the author of the initiative on which the summit will focus, to restore to the Arabs their faith in the meaning of the word 'summit'…"

  2. #2
    The Israeli Guy
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    The right of return is the biggest hypocricy that I've ever heard!

    The Arabs want that Gaza, Samaria and Judea will be clean of Jews and in the same moment they want to bring to Israel hundreds of thousands of Arabs so they could achieve 3 Palestinian states:

    1. The kingdom of Jordan.
    2. Gaza, Samaria and Judea as a Palestinian state.
    3. The state of Israel full with Arabs as a Palestinian state.

    If they want Gaza, Samaria and Judea to be clean of Jews then we have the right to demand a Jewish state clean of Arabs who are hostile to us.

  3. #3
    chaver4u2
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    The repetitive “Right of Return” issue has been an almost 60-years old attempt by Muslim nations to hijack so-called world opinion. The Muslim world has been fervently trying by all means (wars, terror, political hijackings) to wipe Israel off the world’s map and annihilate all Jews in the Middle East, and preferably elsewhere in the world as well.

    But, let’s not forget that this notorious Article 11 of UN Resolution 194 has long ago become null and void.
    Why?
    Because one important issue (that has so “conveniently” been left out by so many who refer to this resolution) has never materialized. To the contrary.
    I am referring to this important part of Article 11:”… refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date…..”

    There has not been one single “refugee” that has ever shown any desire to live at peace with us. Listen to them. Look at them. Read their covenants. Hear their statements. Tally their murderous terrorist attacks, the hundreds of successful bombings, and the thousands of failed terror attempts. Rocket attacks, hijackings, kidnappings, assassinations, and so on.
    Wishing to live at peace……….?

    No matter how the Saudis, the Arab League, the 1.3 billion Muslims, the hijacked UN, and the rest of the world wish to pressure Israel to commit suicide, we simply will not succumb. No more Massada. Life is too dear to us.

    This purported Saudi “peace initiative” is the same, old cliché all over again. Nothing new, nothing worth considering.
    The Arabs want their countries Judenfrei: so be it.
    But Israel will NEVER be Judenfrei.

  4. #4
    KettleWhistle
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    AFAIK, Israel grants all Arabs the right of return to Arab countries. As for this "right of return" joke of Arab pseudo-peace initiatives, Israel needs to grow some balls. Why can't they just publicly tell the Arabs to get back to us when they are serious, and end any mention or discussion of this nonsense until that time?

  5. #5
    Illuminatus
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    There can be no "right of return", period.

    On this issue especially -- those of us who pray for and support Israel must stand up and be counted.

    Israel can not allow a single Palestinian refugee to return to what is now the Jewish State of Israel. The country bore no responsibility for the refugees because their plight resulted from an attack by Arab nations on Israel when it was a fledgling state.

    Some things are forever, one of them is Israel and the other was the consequences of the failed invasion of several Arab nations in 1948.

    ^_^

  6. #6
    Radical_Ryushin
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    I would consider dividing the Gaza Strip from the West Bank, since they are not controlled by different political agencies, one of which is a terrorist organization (Hamas).

    Here is an honest question: If the Palestinians had considered themselves Levantines rather than Arabs (in that they shared a Levantine Language like Hebrew, but probably Aramaic and a Levantine Culture and identity) , would you be more willing to share land with them?

  7. #7
    Muslima
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    I see people objecting to the "right of return" clause,

    What i want to know is this, why hasn't Israel offered a counter proposal then? ie. one without the "right of return"?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muslima
    I see people objecting to the "right of return" clause,

    What i want to know is this, why hasn't Israel offered a counter proposal then? ie. one without the "right of return"?
    Actually, they have. They said that they are willing to negotiate about anything except the so called Right of Return. But in any case, the Saudis are not making it overly easy to negotiate. This is what Mubarak said about Saudi attitudes towards Israel:

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/876607.html

    Mubarak: Olmert should 'forget about' talks with Saudi officials

    By Reuters

    Egypt's President Hosni Mubarak has said that Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who called in April for a regional conference with Arab leaders, should "forget about" holding talks with Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah.

    In an interview with Israeli television, a transcript of which was published by Egypt's Al-Ahram newspaper, Mubarak said circumstances in conservative Saudi Arabia, home to Islam's holiest sites, prevented the Saudi monarch meeting Olmert.

    "Forget about meeting with the king... The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has circumstances that differ from those of any other state. They have holy lands and men of religion," Mubarak said.
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  9. #9
    Shotgun Styles
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaver4u2 View Post

    There has not been one single “refugee” that has ever shown any desire to live at peace with us.
    So you have met all 4 million refugees? Polled them all? And you can prove this?

    Your assumptions are glaring...

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Ah so you're back. Hello. Anything new?

    BTW I noted you noted that every Palestinian in the world everywhere is apparently a 'refugee'. How does that work again? And how many generations does it apply? 100? A Million?

  11. #11
    Shotgun Styles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    Ah so you're back. Hello. Anything new?

    BTW I noted you noted that every Palestinian in the world everywhere is apparently a 'refugee'. How does that work again? And how many generations does it apply? 100? A Million?
    Well that door swings both ways. The Zionist claim to Israel is 1000 years old. And to cash it in they murdered and displaced nearly a million people. So yes, all descendants of the original victims of the Palestinian Holocaust should be considered refugees.

  12. #12
    KettleWhistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun Styles View Post
    Well that door swings both ways. The Zionist claim to Israel is 1000 years old. And to cash it in they murdered and displaced nearly a million people. So yes, all descendants of the original victims of the Palestinian Holocaust should be considered refugees.
    "Palestinians" are Arabs. They are not refugees in Arab countries. They are locals there.

    Oh, and Zionist claim to Israel is 3,500+ years old.

  13. #13
    r2sputin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun Styles View Post
    Well that door swings both ways. The Zionist claim to Israel is 1000 years old. And to cash it in they murdered and displaced nearly a million people. So yes, all descendants of the original victims of the Palestinian Holocaust should be considered refugees.
    No, it's not. And even if it was, that wouldn't matter. The reason being that the issue is not about "rights". The idea of "right of return" is as senseless as the idea of the "right to exist". The Zionists came to the land, mobilized sufficiently many people and resources to establish a government and military force, and successfully defended their state against various invading armies. That's the only relevant part about the Zionist enterprise regarding "rights" to the land. There is no claim to restitution based on millenia-old ancestry. Restitution applies to those who lost property, not their descendants of some arbitrary generation.

    I am aware that there are people who say, "Israel was the Jewish state thousands of years ago, therefore we have the right to kick out the Palestinians and re-establish the state." This is nonsense. Few if any people who have influence within the Zionist movement actually believe this, so please refrain from insinuating that it is somehow canonical.

    Israel as a geographical location was chosen because of historical and cultural significance. This significance alone does not grant anybody the right to come there and do whatever they want - again, the issue is not about rights.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun Styles
    Well that door swings both ways. The Zionist claim to Israel is 1000 years old. And to cash it in they murdered and displaced nearly a million people. So yes, all descendants of the original victims of the Palestinian Holocaust should be considered refugees.
    Whichever way you look at it, you haven't got a case.

    Option 1 - The Refugees Have A Claim For A Right To Return
    Jewish rights trump the Arab rights because Jewish claims go back 3500 years while Arab claims only go back at most 1000 years.

    Nevertheless, Jews are willing to compromise and they would allow the Arabs to live in the WB and Gaza conditional upon the Arabs stopping their century old aggression against Israeli Jews..

    Option 2 - It All Happened in the Past, Forget History
    OK then, the Jews are now in Israel, the Arabs should come to terms with the present. Israel is there, accept it, live and let live ... otherwise accept the consequences and Israel's countermeasures!
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaver4u2
    There has not been one single “refugee” that has ever shown any desire to live at peace with us.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotgun Styles
    So you have met all 4 million refugees? Polled them all? And you can prove this?

    Your assumptions are glaring...
    There was no need to interview 4 million of them. Actions speak louder than words and it seems that for the last 100 years the Palestinian Arabs have been terrorising their Jewish/Israeli neighbours in order to intimidate and demoralise them. And even if not ALL the Palestinian Arabs did it, it certainly was done in their name, instigated by their leaders who have been continually brainwashing generation upon generation of Palestinian Arabs to hate Jews/Israelis. So, in all likelihood, most Palestinian Arabs don't desire to let Israelis live in peace in their own independent country (Israel)....
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

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