Don't confuse terrorism with Islam, says EU

[bararallu]

Of course not. But neither is it that Zawaheri is like the Pope to us and there isn't any dissenting voice.

No one said that Zawarheri is a pope, or Osama or even the fathers of modern
Selafi belief, in SA and Egypt respectfully. But we are, however, talking about community influence and respect, local community for the most part, and internationally as well. There are fatwas upon fatwas from respected Mosques and Seminaries that give impetus to Jihad. Some are subtle and some are direct, all go well beyond the singular sheik and his cohorts in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There are many scholars that disagree vehemently with his views, but they are almost entirely absent from the media.

The MSN bends over backwards for these stories, "moderate Muslims" are so vogue that they re-brand radicals as "moderates" in fact. They white wash a lot of fatwas and general comments in the press. That is what feeds the blogger community to offer counter point to the MSN propaganda.

[Mediocrates]

No so moderate some of them. The NY Times recently gave two Op-Ed columns to two different senior Hamas figures. At least we can agree there are no longer any rational standards for anything in the American Press. Anyone should say anything. Let's talk about the good things slavery did, or child rape or wife beating. Might as well. There are no bad ideas anymore.

So you see, evil is sometimes no more than that not discriminating right from wrong.

[bararallu]

I would agree, except "anti-Zionism" seems, to be to this reader, the canary in the mine. Aside from the fact, not all of it is sensationalism and money. Some of these writers and editors get off on sticking it to the jid.

[andak01]

Again with the chage of subjects. Nobody said anything about his living during the Mongols or not.

It makes a difference. It's like saying so and so Rabbi says it's OK to kill everybody outside the neighborhood and neglecting to state that the neighborhood in question was a ghetto and the people outside were the Nazi guards. Taking Taymiyyah out of the context of the Mongol invasion is exactly what the Wahhabbis did and exactly what you are assisting in.

So let's get to the meat of the issue, you at least finally admit that somebody is using his line of thought and reasoning. You say, and I quote, "That said, I think that what he wrote was distorted and selected by later, less important scholars for their own political purposes." You also compare their use to the use of the Nazi's, which I agree with. They are Nazi like. But to say that Lutheranism didn't contain anti-semitic ideas and that Lutheran's didn't commit anti-Semitic acts is just patently false, just as to say that Islam doesn't contain anti-semitic ideas and that Muslims don't use those ideas to commit anti-semitic (and in this case anti-everybody) acts is equally stupid.

Well yes, I think the comparison to Luther is quite apt. Luther after all penned the screed "The Lies of the Jews".

But the point is that they do USE HIM and HIS WRITINGS. Now you say that they are a distortion, but millions upon millions of people disagree with you, and that's the point. As I have said a kabillion times, if your view held sway then life would be better. But it clearly doesn't, and to bury your head in the sand and say that it does is idiocy of the highest order.

No. Not idiocy at all.

As I have said a kabillion times, if your view held sway then life would be better.

And then you continue to call me a liar and irrelavent and I'm sure I don't even care what else. You glory in the success of radical Islam and demean any Muslim who would speak against such a thing. Ask yourself why I'm the liar and Bin Laden is your own path to future success and victory. You sicken me.

[scattergood]

It makes a difference. It's like saying so and so Rabbi says it's OK to kill everybody outside the neighborhood and neglecting to state that the neighborhood in question was a ghetto and the people outside were the Nazi guards. Taking Taymiyyah out of the context of the Mongol invasion is exactly what the Wahhabbis did and exactly what you are assisting in.

It is funny how sad your points are. Tragic really. I point out that there are thousand+ years and tens to hundreds of millions of people who disagree with you and agree with Taymiyyah, and you blame me?

This is typical total bs from you and I am glad you keep doing it to show how utterly vacuous your points are.

You have a particular view of Islam. Great. All religions have their differing points of view. But you come here and say that YOURS is the TRUE and ONLY view that is valid. And those of us that point out that your view seems to be not in full sway, with proof of scholars and actions of your fellow correligionists are painted as supporting them? I assume your the kind of guy that doesn't want to know about cancer running through your veins because knowing about it might, you know, 'support it'. I mean your hand might be healthy, but let's not look at the lungs because if we see a tumor and want to talk about it, that means we are supporting it. That seems a natural, and logical, extention of your reasoning. Sad.

Well yes, I think the comparison to Luther is quite apt. Luther after all penned the screed "The Lies of the Jews".

Yup, he did. And Mein Kampf is was a best seller in Muslim countries, and a show based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a top TV show. Glad to join you to keep the anti-Semites are Nazi's (be they Christians or Muslims or Athiests) comparison going.

No. Not idiocy at all.

I think this is proof enough of the idiocy of the points you make.

And then you continue to call me a liar and irrelavent and I'm sure I don't even care what else. You glory in the success of radical Islam and demean any Muslim who would speak against such a thing. Ask yourself why I'm the liar and Bin Laden is your own path to future success and victory. You sicken me.

I don't 'glory' in the succcess of the Islamists. This is another of your paranoid fantasies. Where have I said 'ooh, YEEES!!!! Another good bombing in a Mosque in Iraq, high fives all around!' or anything even remotely close? I haven't. Islamists sicken me, they are horrid, disgusting, and evil. OBL is not my path to future success and victory. This is a truly delusional statement if you think so, for you have NO basis in anything I have stated that comes close to that. OBL has presented his points with Islamic texts and scholars as support, other Muslims have agreed with his presentation. This is what I have said and will continue to say. All of which is true, not something I like, but it is true nonetheless.

You are the liar because you lie. You tell untruths, misrepresent facts, hide and obscure facts, change subjects, and have stated that you don't even need a fact to believe something to be true.

[andak01]

Islamists sicken me, they are horrid, disgusting, and evil.

Right, and Muslims who follow the Quran??? You've already said enough. Any moderate path according to you is either a lie or a fantasy or even a heresy. You and ShimonG belong together in your own hate clinic.

You most certainly wouldn't love it if the world thought like me. You've taken every opportunity to degrade, dehumanize and libel me. But that's typical of your lies.

You are the liar because you lie. You tell untruths, misrepresent facts, hide and obscure facts, change subjects, and have stated that you don't even need a fact to believe something to be true.

You not only are a liar, you support liars and live to lie. Go spread your hatred somewhere else. I forgot, this is the place where people like yourself have adoring fans like ShimonG and Farmall.

[bararallu]

As part of a sweeping reform of religious life in Morocco, women have been receiving training as religious counsellors for the first time ever. The intention is that they will assume religious and educational tasks - but they are not permitted to lead prayers. By Mohamed Massad

| Bild: http://www.qantara.de/uploads/478/23...uhamadiyya.jpg
http://www.qantara.de/default_images/zoom.gif A possible training centre for female religious counsellors in the near future? - the Muhamadiyya mosque in Casablanca | Morocco is making a conspicuous effort to curb religious extremism by giving women access to mosques, not only as believers who would like to pray, but also as religious "guides" whose duties include counselling and religious instruction.

This phenomenon is part of what has become known in Morocco as the "restructuring of the religious sector" and is one of the many reforms in operation across the country.
www.qantara.de/webcom/show_article.php/_c-478/_nr-664/i.html?PHPSESSID=5

Andak, first of all the [actual] links are.. er... to say the least are... not... so... convincing . And again.. you site only cases about women education in Morocco. While that is highly commendable, certainly, it doesn't really talk to the other areas of specific interest, regarding Islamism, on this forum for one. Further, it says absolutely nothing that is going on in the 21 other Muslim Arab countries that is explicit in your original statement;

Contrary to what you may believe it is being resolved. Throughout the Muslim world, governments are putting into place programs to combat extremist teachings.

Please don't think I'm busting your chops on this one, I am very interested in seeing as much evidence as possible. As you love to say to some of us: the Arab world doesn't start and end with the Palestinians. This is very true, but neither does it follow with the Moroccans . Who are rather at the periphery of it, population, culture and influence-wise, all said and done.

BTW, how many Mosques, in Morocco, are Selafi run, as a number of the total, do you know?

[scattergood]

Right, and Muslims who follow the Quran??? You've already said enough. Any moderate path according to you is either a lie or a fantasy or even a heresy. You and ShimonG belong together in your own hate clinic.

You most certainly wouldn't love it if the world thought like me. You've taken every opportunity to degrade, dehumanize and libel me. But that's typical of your lies.

And there you go again, smearing left and right because, because you have nothing of actual value to say. You are consistently wrong on both facts and logic so you just revert to, 'you are a liar, you are, you are, you are!!!!'. If that's what makes it for intellectual honesty in your world, then thanks for proving, again, how intellectually dishonest your world really is.

See, only in your bizzare little world of Andakian logic is point out facts and making true statements, degrading, dehumanizing and libeling. Again, thank you for the bottom of my heart for showing how truly twisted, bizzare, illogical, and unsustainable your points and line of reasoning are.

And, just to be clear, anybody (ShimonG and Farmall included) state that Isalm is by is by definition evil, all Muslims are evil, all Muslims should be killed, or that Islam and Muslim have brought nothing good into the world, I flat out disagree with them. Is that clear enough? Probably not, but it is worth a shot.

You not only are a liar, you support liars and live to lie. Go spread your hatred somewhere else. I forgot, this is the place where people like yourself have adoring fans like ShimonG and Farmall.

Yup, again only in your strange little world is asking you to actually support your position with facts the same as me lying. I have asked you repeatedly to substantiate your points, and I have repeatedly substantiated mine with quotations, citiations, and logical reasoning. You are completely and utterly unable to substantiate what you say, so you have no choice but to just call everybody else a liar.

I live to lie...that's a good one. Here how conversations go with you:

Andak: Islam is the religion of peace! There is no coercion and Islam teaches not to kill innocent people.
Me: Um, well some Muslims disagree with you. In fact, here is some evidence that the people who kill in Allah's name use from the Quran, Hadiths, etc.
Andak: You hate Mulsims and want OBL to win. You are a hatemonger!
Me: Um, no, I just don't think that all of what you say is true. There is lots of evidence, and millions of other Muslims who disagree with you.
Andak: You are a liar! You live to lie.
Me: Where do I lie, what statement is untrue?
Andak: LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, LIAR!!!!!! You want to murder everybody, and Islamist victory is your victory.

You can act like a petulant little 5 year old all you want, but in the real world facts and logic win out. You are losing on pretty much all fronts, but thanks for playing!

[andak01]

Andak, first of all the [actual] links are.. er... to say the least are... not... so... convincing . And again.. you site only cases about women education in Morocco. While that is highly commendable, certainly, it doesn't really talk to the other areas of specific interest, regarding Islamism, on this forum for one. Further, it says absolutely nothing that is going on in the 21 other Muslim Arab countries that is explicit in your original statement;

That's the result of my extensive 30 second search. The story was covered more in depth on Moroccan TV, and I'm sure, if I did a French language search, I'd come up with even more. Importantly, the Moroccans seem to be proud of this initiative. And I think it is the perfect approach, sending moderates who are Muslim scholars and religious people rather than secularists with an agenda to cause people to leave religion.

Please don't think I'm busting your chops on this one, I am very interested in seeing as much evidence as possible. As you love to say to some of us: the Arab world doesn't start and end with the Palestinians. This is very true, but neither does it follow with the Moroccans . Who are rather at the periphery of it, population, culture and influence-wise, all said and done.

Some months ago, when I had more time, I was able to discover Muslim women's rights groups in almost every Muslim country. That's the sort of thing I heavily support. These women were quoting the Quran and Sunna to show the hypocrisy of the present interpretations of Sharia.

BTW, how many Mosques, in Morocco, are Selafi run, as a number of the total, do you know?

I have no idea. I do know that I visited at least one mosque last time I was over there that was rebuilt by the Saudis. You have to understand that there are degrees even among the Salafis. There are Salafis that think of nothing but jihad and others that follow a more moderate path. I've been fortunate enough to know a couple of the later and none of the former.

[ShimonG]

I see no apologetics.

What I see is not claiming responsibility for something outside of one's control.

Aw, Jeez Med. You claim to "see no apologetics" and in the very next sentence contradict yourself. If one makes excuses on behalf of terrorists (even outside his "control", which btw you cannot know for a fact!), that's an apologist. If a german justifies the holocaust, he is an apologist. if a catholic justifies the vatican anti-semitism, he is an apologist.

And so is andak. I think that much is proven here due to the efforts of scatter and others. I dont think there is a single jew on this forum, even newbies, who are falling for the pile of BS that andak seems to be peddling.

trying to change the mind of any bigot is impossible.

Aww, and i thought you liked andak!!

[ShimonG]

...........this is the place where people like yourself have adoring fans like ShimonG and Farmall.

Assuming i am a scatter fan...........

-In my defence, scatter has not forced carnal relations on a nine-yr old girl
-Raped women, encouraged his followers to do so
-Looted peaceful caravans and accepted 20% of the booty
-Gave captives the option to "convert or die"
-had butchered dozens of this critics during his lifetime including a nursing mother
-created a religion that has cost millions of innocent lives to be in utter ruin
-and is well on track to cast its shadow on billions
-excused terror under any pretext
-refuses to justify passages that refer to certain folks as apes and swine

Now, pray tell, what's your excuse for being a fan of mohammad??

[bararallu]

That's the result of my extensive 30 second search.

A personal thing I myself follow (most of the time) is *test* the links before posting them. LOL.

The story was covered more in depth on Moroccan TV, and I'm sure, if I did a French language search, I'd come up with even more. Importantly, the Moroccans seem to be proud of this initiative. And I think it is the perfect approach, sending moderates who are Muslim scholars and religious people rather than secularists with an agenda to cause people to leave religion.

I have nothing to contest here.. only the linking job...

Some months ago, when I had more time, I was able to discover Muslim women's rights groups in almost every Muslim country. That's the sort of thing I heavily support. These women were quoting the Quran and Sunna to show the hypocrisy of the present interpretations of Sharia.

You and I are on the same page regarding this.

I have no idea. I do know that I visited at least one mosque last time I was over there that was rebuilt by the Saudis. You have to understand that there are degrees even among the Salafis. There are Salafis that think of nothing but jihad and others that follow a more moderate path. I've been fortunate enough to know a couple of the later and none of the former.

You can make the same argument about a number of religious affiliations. The "political" nature of Selafi teaching is inherent to it's message, in my humble opinion, and it's rather confrontational; it certainly leans toward theocratic solutions, if not always outright violent ones. We have plethora of evidence from Arabic speakers themselves on this. It further advocates far more compulsion in religion, than any other religion I know of on Earth, save that of some mini cults that drink "spiked" cool-aid. If forceful conversion would take place somewhere, 9/10 times a Selafi is involved, this is my gut feeling. This is not coming from my studies of it's theology, but rather loosely tracking the movement and socio-political outlook of Muslims that I meet. And reading the daily news like yourself. It doesn't seem nearly as Messianic as the Mullah Mahdi Shia are, but there are serious issues with it- that effect NON Muslims. Otherwise I wouldn't care so much (although as I said womens rights, etc., are great to see and brings a measure of humanity to the religion from an outsiders perspective).

I would not compare any Jewish tradition with Islamic ones here, since at the core they are such different animals, with different spirits and foundations, and scope of action to boot. But that said, when political action is tied to religious observance it is nearly always bad news. Including in branches of Judaism. Past and Present. I've admired some personalities in the past that elicited this approach, and still respect a few of them for their "Klal Israel" as we say, but I see how easy it is to fall into the trap of ever increasing [personal] demands to see the world reflect religious doctrine. It is dangerous thinking, extremely so. It causes conflict on a huge, society ending, scale. That is why you will never see me defend any fundamentalist here, and doubly so one with a geo-political bent. In fact, quite the oposite.

So while it makes perfect sence that not all Selafis are alike, and even hyper critical personalities such as Robert Spencer will 100% agree with you on that, I'd think, the whole movement is conducive to not only an austere cultural program (which in i's own right is just fine IMO for the rest of Humanity that paces to modernity) but engaged in very troubling expansive geo-political action (which is not). And it's tied to Billions of Dollars in Saudi money, which also means religious oversight to a great degree.. that money is a leash, an enforcement mechanism.

So Andak, if you will make the case for us that explains just exactly why, indigenous, or rather long standing traditions, like those found in Morocco, or Bosnia, or Turkey or Indonesia, need to be revamped into houses that Al Wahhab built? Are we to assume that all this time, these people practiced in-authentic Islam?

[andak01]

Some months ago, when I had more time, I was able to discover Muslim women's rights groups in almost every Muslim country. That's the sort of thing I heavily support. These women were quoting the Quran and Sunna to show the hypocrisy of the present interpretations of Sharia.
You and I are on the same page regarding this.


Good. Because IMO there isn't going to be much progress any other way. Tauting Noni Darwash or Hirsi Ali or Irshad Manji as the future of Islam is like saying Madalyn Murray O'Hair is the future of Christianity. There are on the other hand women and men with a moderate view of Islam that doesn't conflict with the Quran and Sunna or require them to apostate to demonstrate it. Historically women scholars have taught both women and men since the first days of Islam.

As for the Salafis, they concentrate more on the concept of Tawheed, which is about the oneness of Allah. It's a beautiful concept, but it isn't everything Islam is about. As a former Christian, they remind me of Baptists in their austerity and their iconoclasm (and I should add in their mixing politics with religion). It should be recalled that the origins of the word fundamentalism is a militant Christian group.

Fundamentalism is a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching. (The Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary) Further, fundamentalism is a usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. (The American Heritage Dictionary)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism

[bararallu]

Good. Because IMO there isn't going to be much progress any other way. Tauting Noni Darwash or Hirsi Ali or Irshad Manji

Manji still considers herself a Muslim AFAIK. I don't know all that much about Darwash, who along with Ali is an apostate, still provides a reasonable service to the non Muslim West. In identifying radical and implacable aspects of Islam run by Islamists in major population centers of the Western World. All I've read of Hirsi Ali, I've never understood her calling for any general witch hunts against Muslims.Further, I think none of them have on the record stated that Muslims are evil or Islam needs to be eradicated, if so.. please site that for us. As important a role as these women play, the women you site are far more important since they change the community from the inside of the culture/religion. The Apostates and related personalities try shame and western political force to blunt Islamism primarily, while the pro womens rights Muslim movements are inherently more stable and progressive over the long term. Both are needed IMHO. There are many motivations for these Apostates, some just crave attention, while others actually fear living in a prison of their tortured youth again...something you and I will never be able to appreciate. You more than me, since I was born in a place that daily violated a variety of human rights.

[andak01]

Manji still considers herself a Muslim AFAIK.

I realize that. I've seen her interviewed and I even agree with a couple of things she says. But she is the wrong one to say it. She is no scholar and I don't even find her particularly knowledgeable. People that are more knowledgeable are not going to find leadership in her.

I don't know all that much about Darwash, who along with Ali is an apostate, still provides a reasonable service to the non Muslim West. In identifying radical and implacable aspects of Islam run by Islamists in major population centers of the Western World. All I've read of Hirsi Ali, I've never understood her calling for any general witch hunts against Muslims.

Further, I think none of them have on the record stated that Muslims are evil or Islam needs to be eradicated,

You think...

• "From a former Moslem, these people are in the US to Islamize America and have a scary agenda. They audaciously buy churches and convert them into mosques!" [10] - Darwash

How can you buy a Church unless it doesn't have any congregation or the owners are willing to sell.

• "Islam is cruel." [11] - Darwash
• "Why would a Moslem woman who wants to follow Islamic law to the letter, for her and her family, choose to live in the West and the US?" [17] - Darwash
• "I felt that her Islamic attire was the first visible indication that she and I could never be friends."[18] - Darwash
• "In the Arab world to take responsibility and say sorry is taken as an unmanly sign of weakness that may get a person into more trouble. Those who admit guilt, even if it is accidental, are given no mercy and may end up taking all the blame and being brutally punished. ...Honesty is not rewarded." [20] - Darwash

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...oldid=67978494

if so.. please site that for us. As important a role as these women play, the women you site are far more important since they change the community from the inside of the culture/religion. The Apostates and related personalities try shame and western political force to blunt Islamism primarily, while the pro womens rights Muslim movements are inherently more stable and progressive over the long term. Both are needed IMHO.

I don't deny Ali Hirsi or Noni Darwash the right to speak. But the fact that their negative descriptions of extremists are taken by a good deal of the public to stand for us all is dangerous. I've seen four sisters in the past year remove their hijabs out of fear. Even if you're flat out against the hijab, it isn't very American to promote fear as a means of squelching religious expression. Any one of those women would return to wearing it of their own choice if they weren't afraid of being accosted, and even afraid for their children.

There are many motivations for these Apostates, some just crave attention, while others actually fear living in a prison of their tortured youth again...

It's a very, very, very profitable business. The worse things you say about Islam, the more editions your book goes through and the more talk shows pick you up.