Who?Originally Posted by ShimonG
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Then I can think of better uses of a trillion dollars than to assist.
How is me claiming your position is vacuous putting words in your mouth? Did I say, 'Andak says his own position is vacuous'? No.
The plain fact of the matter is that you cannot answer a simple question because you know the answer will undo the logic of your own position. If you claim to have a problem with Israel pursuing a Jewish identity (whatever that means to Israelis and whatever form it takes), you can't very well go around and say that you don't have a problem with Turkey, Iran, Egypt, Malaysia, KSA, etc. pursuing Islamic identities in what ever form they take. But you can't also bring yourself to say that you do have a problem with them pursuing Islamic identities because then any action which enhances an Islamic identity of those countries would rightly be questioned and you don't want to go down that path. Hence your problem in logic.
So what do you do? You smear by saying I put words in your mouth, you put words in my mouth, make it about regime change, bring up the dominoe theory, discuss the war and the expenditures for it etc. Changing the subject isn't going to work here, there is something to see, and we aren't moving along.
You have a basic problem of being able to answer questions about your positions, because your positions are inherently not supportable. Thanks for making that abundantly clear, AGAIN, with your own words and your own actions. This is the purpose of free speech, to show the world the strengths and weaknesses of ideas through debate, and as seemingly ever so, your positions fall by the wayside in a mire of falsity and illogic, and your own behavior which paints you and your position in a pretty horrible light for rational thinking people.
Ciao!
Assist paing more at the gas pump! probably not for nearly all Americans... but I'm speculating here.
Good. I'm trying over time to change my debating style to be averse to ad hominems. Attack ideas of people not the actual people, it's extremely easy to default in attacking the latter. I entreat everyone to do the same, it just betters everyones rhetoric+logic, no matter where they are coming from.
So would I. And there were worse things that some Jews supposedly did, and that too was a long time ago. Here are some issues with the statement: The Tanach, and certainly our Oral tradition, negates the proposed genocide of Joshua, not in the least from his stated and obvious failure in the field. In many circles it is a correlate story to the "binding of Itzhak" (proposed child sacrifice). Now both stories could have been cover ups, redacted in the text, with a later ethical tradition added on. This is not impossible, but what it is at the end of the day is the same thing. Is it history? Or is it divine tests and subsequent allowances; explicit and implicit lessons on the nature of good and evil. How many fundamentalists do we have that take the Tanach at face value? How much power do those fundamentalists have in the Israeli govt? Those are the relevant follow up questions.I would call what Joshua did ethnic cleansing, but it happened a long time ago.
So, taken out of our internal tradition, who knows what was, what so did this or that. There are impossible exaggerations in the Tanach (esp. on the size of Armies, populations, and such things), this is commensurate with the exaggerations we find all over the ancient near east, in royal catalogs and religious testaments. There are pretty serious theories today that say Judeans were (and are) majority Canaanite, and minority Mesopotamian. That furthermore, only a small [prolly elite] group soljourned in Egypt and were kept later in Mesopotamia. We even have some evidence within the Tanach, Eliyahu's tirade against "foreign/local" wives being just one. The whole Book of Ruth being another. Academically, we know with some certainty that we absorbed the majority of the Cana'anites, by the end of the late second Temple period. More so, than we know that the northern Cana'anites did with the sea peoples that invaded them. There is also the added factor of slightly latter Aramean migrations into the SW semitic hinterlands, that affected all the populations, to what extent- there is a lot of conjecture today.
So the moral of my story: do not mistake the overused and purely theological category of "Amelek" (And variations on that theme) to describe anything that actually took place- in the nexus of our internal tradition and external sources (literary + archaeological). And moreover, do not use it comparatively with phenomena others hold as facts and more so continue to drive towards [ethnic cleansing] ends to this day.
A fog of who's creating, not that of Zionist Jews certainly.I have no comment about the creation of the State of Israel. The truth of it is so mired in political fog that it's undescernable.
This is a site about Israel and not America Andak, and lets focus our subject matter...The worst description of it by a Palestinian doesn't compare with what my own ancestors did to the Indians or the descendants of slaves that built America.
That's a good stance. No Israeli has asked anything more from any Arab or Muslim.So I stand neutral on that count.
Correct we aren't.Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation. We aren't calling for an end to France because of what happened in Algeria or of Germany because of the Holocaust.
And Israelis, even in regards to places like Syria, havent either. I personally would like zero contact with these tyrannies but I don't advocate invading them and changing their govt. I'm good, however, in returning the favor of funding their insurrectionists. I wish the rest of my countrymen felt so as well.Furthermore, if I say that I am not keen to celebrate Israel as a Jewish state, I still don't call for any kind of intervention, regiem change or violent overthrow. It's a criticism and that's as far as it goes.
sure.I think we both have to put some baggage aside before we can have a civil discussion. Let's try, shall we.
And by being reasonable instead of attacking me, you make it much easier to listen and empathize with your point of view. Thank you.
Fair enough.And Israelis, even in regards to places like Syria, havent either. I personally would like zero contact with these tyrannies but I don't advocate invading them and changing their govt. I'm good, however, in returning the favor of funding their insurrectionists. I wish the rest of my countrymen felt so as well.
Sometimes people don't even understand what they are defending.. and other times they default into reasonable arguments with unreasonable, or rather unfounded, facts (your position on the Jewish Agencies role in the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab occupied lands being one that currently stands out to me). This can give an impression of anti-Zionism (or worse actually), but may in fact be a number of factors conflated and have very little to do with promulgating that particular ideology.
We are all very sensitized on these matters these days and we are all very conscious of each others talking points. There will always be conflict over "new" data points. Israel is in a state of War, it has been since it's beginning. If we are not vigilant then who will be vigilant for us? Besides, my biggest issue with you Andak is your rhetorical technique at times, it takes some getting used to but you have a habit (perhaps not totally conscious) that marginalizes aspects of major events, in the aforementioned ME conflict, and history generally. Unlike some people here, however, I think you can think rationally and not only defensively, although as I said some of what you do just screams white-wash to us. As I'm sure that a lot of what we say seems to be exaggeration, at best, or yelling fire in a crowded theater, at worst, to you. It will be hard, if not impossible, to narrow those perspectives.
Straight from the koran and mohammad
http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/0...liers001.shtml
Anti-Jewish, anti-Christian fliers found on cars
By Gordon Wilczynski
Macomb Daily Staff Writer
Police said anti-Jewish and anti-Christian fliers were found on cars parked in a lot on the northwest corner of 15 Mile and Ryan roads.
He said the flier said: "Kill Jews and Christians if they don't believe in Allah and Mohammad."
It further advises people to "Fight those who do not believe."
Youtube chronicling the depravities of mohammad.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wjHXfs...elated&search=
Sigh. I've got nothing. The only type of retort that is appropriate or analogous is not my style, or even anywhere remotely related to how I want to be. All I can say is, ShimonG, I'm glad you are the King of nothing. If you need a reference for Jerry Springer, I'm here for you.
BTW, these are fairly well-researched items, including citing the relevant verses from the koran and the hadiths. That way, the deniers wont find it easy to talk past it.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS_Wak...elated&search=
Robert Spencer
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tdkPQx...elated&search=
From MEMRI - Jews are the offsprings of Apes and Pigs (as stated in Mohammad's qoran)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=e2xnUT...elated&search=
In deference to the wishes of the mods, i am refraining from personal attacks. As you can see, instead of responding (or alternatively keep his snout shut), andak is the first to hurl insults.
if you are going to allow this to continue without warning him, then please allow me to hit back as well.
I'm not posting links to StormFront or spreading blood libel about you. You are on the other hand claiming that we worship the moon and other myriad lies. I can only feel pity.
These were very interesting presentations. While I would have to agree that terrorism is not unique to Islam; however, as Mr. Spencer pointed out, Jihad is unique to Islam. Jihad is synonymous with war, death, and destruction with an eye towards Islamic domination of the world. Therefore, Jihad could be defined in contemporary times as a unique "Islamic Terrorism;" hence, Islamic Jihad.
I see. And spreading the Christian word by force through two continents, forcing Indians to move off their lands and into compounds where their children were taken away and forced into missionary schools is what? What is Manifest Destiny? Why is it that you've seen Bibles belonging to slaves in America and never a Quran, even though they came from West Africa where Islam is practiced by the majority? How many Qurans ended up in the sea?
What do you call Papal kidnappings of Jewish children in the nineteenth century, children who were sent to be raised as Christians? What do you call even today soldiers that justify mistreatment of Iraqis on the grounds that they are disabusing them of an inferior religion?
Christianity is like Islam a triumphalist religion. Witness the joy with which people lap up the invective of Robert Spencer and others. They don't require road side bombers to do their bidding, they can openly perform those acts in Haditha and elsewhere knowing they have a raving cheer section in the stands. To its credit, the US government has not fallen completely under the spell of these Apocalyptos. They are the progeny of those who believed we could survive a nuclear winter.
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