U.N. Report Decides Jenin Not Massacre

[NewsGuy]

Fox News reports:

From news article:

U.N. Report: Jenin Not Massacre

UNITED NATIONS — A U.N. report on Israel's military attack on a Palestinian refugee camp does not back up claims of a massacre, but it does criticize both sides for putting civilians in harm's way, Western diplomats said Wednesday.


The report accuses Israel of delaying aid and medical help to Palestinians in the Jenin refugee camp. And it charges Palestinian militants with deliberately putting its fighters and equipment in civilian areas in violation of international law, according to the diplomats.

[lotev]

Must say -- this one has me curious. And let's remember that the UN is not necessarily free of its suspicions in cases like these.

This entire Jenin issue reminds me of the Katyn Forest massacre of World War II in a few ways. In 1940, following Germany' (and subsequently The USSR's) invasion of Poland, thousands of memebers of the Polish intelligensia were murdered and buried in a forest in eastern Poland. With a forest planeted over the gravesite, and witnesses bribed or shot, no one thought about the incident until 1944 -- with the 3rd Reich in shambles and the Russians advancing, Germany made the shocking discovery of the gravesite -- and immediately pointed the finger at the Russians -- who immeidately pointed the finger back at the Germans.

A special committee with the International Red Cross were flown in from various nations to review the findings -- and ruled in favor of Germany -- it appeared to be a Russian atrocity (from bullets, buriel techniques, and various documentation found on the site).

The Allies (always concerned about enraging Stalin -- and hanging onto a tenuous alliance at best) decided to equally blame Germany for the massacre -- another in series of inhuman acts performed by the Nazi-led regime.

Once the iron curtain fell, however, value documents leading to the massacre were released -- many explicit papers written and signed by Stalin himself ordering the elimination of Polish "undesirables". In April 1990, President Gorbachov issued an international apology, and officially set the record straight.

The moral -- always look at the interests of the countries Allied together before deciding the truth. I, myself, will always be skeptical...

[Vic]

Originally posted by lotev
This entire Jenin issue reminds me of the Katyn Forest massacre of World War II in a few ways. In 1940, following Germany' (and subsequently The USSR's) invasion of Poland, thousands of memebers of the Polish intelligensia were murdered and buried in a forest in eastern Poland. With a forest planeted over the gravesite, and witnesses bribed or shot, no one thought about the incident until 1944 -- with the 3rd Reich in shambles and the Russians advancing, Germany made the shocking discovery of the gravesite -- and immediately pointed the finger at the Russians -- who immeidately pointed the finger back at the Germans.

A special committee with the International Red Cross were flown in from various nations to review the findings -- and ruled in favor of Germany -- it appeared to be a Russian atrocity (from bullets, buriel techniques, and various documentation found on the site).

The Allies (always concerned about enraging Stalin -- and hanging onto a tenuous alliance at best) decided to equally blame Germany for the massacre -- another in series of inhuman acts performed by the Nazi-led regime.

Once the iron curtain fell, however, value documents leading to the massacre were released -- many explicit papers written and signed by Stalin himself ordering the elimination of Polish "undesirables". In April 1990, President Gorbachov issued an international apology, and officially set the record straight.

The moral -- always look at the interests of the countries Allied together before deciding the truth. I, myself, will always be skeptical...

Latev, first do your history homework, OK?

The Katyn dead (who were discovered by the advancing German army in 1943, btw.) were actually there to see. In case of Jenin the first question we have to ask is: where are the bodies? There is absolutely no information on them, not even relatives missing them. (For a good discussion: Digging beneath the surface in the Middle East conflict / Hanoch Marmari - http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pa...?itemNo=173882 )

A comparison of Israel with the Stalin's terror regime (which has massacred millions of its own citizens without batting an eyelid, just in case you missed the fact) is an insult on its own. The territory of Jenin is open for international inspection most of the time. Palestinian representatives travel freely through the world and even they have quietly dropped the original claims about the number of dead by now. Such a situation didn't exist in the fmr. "Soviet bloc" until the early 90ies.

Stop dreaming.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by lotev
The moral -- always look at the interests of the countries Allied together before deciding the truth. I, myself, will always be skeptical...

I think I understand your point.

Even though the UN showed the Arab claims to be nothing more than typical Palestinian lies sold to the press, the UN still criticizes both sides.

They are wrong to blame Israel for anything even remotely related to the Jenin terrorist battle. Under intense Arab and Islamic pressure, the UN has been overtly biased against Israel for the past 35 years.

In fact, the blame for the Jenin battle, as well as for regional instability and worldwide terrorism lays squarely with the Palestinians and the rest of the corrupt Arab dictatorships.

My own two criticisms of Israel regarding Jenin are:

1. That the process of eliminating the Arab terrorists should have been started sooner.

2. Israel was absolutely wrong to send in Israeli infantry personnel to engage in urban battle, instead of just carpet bombing the town. This Israeli decision cost the lives of more than a dozen young Israelis who died only to spare their Palestinian enemies.

[Mediocrates]

It wasn't a town. I was a 100x100 metre area called the Jenin Camp (about half a city block in midtown Manhattan). These things tend to take on a mythology of their own after a while. Why does anyone think that terrorists operate out of the camps?

1 - they are uncontrolled free fire zones
2 - lots of grumbling supporters
3 - confusing rabbit warren of shanty shacks

[Kahz]

Oh yes, the claims of "no massacre" were just Zionist Propaganda, weren't they? The Zionists must also control the UN, but for some reason choose to give as many one-sided resolutions not in favor to themselves as possible.

[peacelover]

In fact, the blame for the Jenin battle, as well as for regional instability and worldwide terrorism lays squarely with the Palestinians and the rest of the corrupt Arab dictatorships

Only if you are prepared to blame Israel and its well documented human rights violations of the Palestinians for the suicide bombs. There are some things that nothing can justify - suicide bombs and the jenin incursions are 2 of them.

My own two criticisms of Israel regarding Jenin are:

1. That the process of eliminating the Arab terrorists should have been started sooner.

2. Israel was absolutely wrong to send in Israeli infantry personnel to engage in urban battle, instead of just carpet bombing the town. This Israeli decision cost the lives of more than a dozen young Israelis who died only to spare their Palestinian enemies.

Really? So you won't criticise Israel for the grave violations that HRW, Amnesty, Christain Aid etc (you know the list by now, I won't repeat it) have all found the IDF to have committed?

As for the 2nd part.... please God tell me you did not mean that. Otherwise, you are saying that you think that it would be Okay to incur the deaths of hundreds, possibly thousands, of Palestinians (including civilians) to save 23 Israeli soldiers.

Come on Newsguy - is Israel a 3 year old child, or is she capable of taking responsibility for her actions? I'm getting seriously offended by the fact you are blaming Palestinians for everything Israel does. How would you feel if I started blaming the Israelis for the Arab terror? After all, it's not like they have any less reason to be mad with you guys, and they have no other means of defending themselves. It sometimes seems you'll do anything to preserve this illusory image of Israel.

Oh yes, the claims of "no massacre" were just Zionist Propaganda, weren't they? The Zionists must also control the UN, but for some reason choose to give as many one-sided resolutions not in favor to themselves as possible.

Kahz, while I don't hold the above opinion and have never believed there was a wholescale massacre, it's no more far-fetched than the Israeli claim that the EU is anti-semitic, the UN is anti-semitic, the BBC is anti-semitic, Amnesty is anti-semitic, B'Tselem is anti-semitic - in fact everyone is anti-semitic and prejudiced against Israel apart from Israel and the USA, right?

Lotev is right to be sceptical - we will never ever know for sure what happened in Jenin. That is no one's fault but Israel's.

[cerulean]

It's within Palestinian control to stop attacks on Israel. If Palestinians won't do it, Israel is compelled to do so in order to protect the lives of its citizens.

I don't claim to know the exact answer as to what should be done about terrorists who mingle with the civilian population and store bombs in highly-populated areas. I do know it seems wrong that mothers who highly value the lives of their sons should watch their sons die so that mothers who consider their sons' lives valueless can have their sons live.

I do know that the 23 Israeli soldiers who died because they were engaged in risky warfare to help protect Palestinian civilians have given up their lives and the chances to have their own families while protecting the rights of Palestinians to do the same.

[minusthejihad]

After all, it's not like they have any less reason to be mad with you guys, and they have no other means of defending themselves.

1. Why are they mad at me? What have I done to the Palestinians from the US or back when I was in Russia? The only Palestinians I know personally, 1 is one of my best friends, and the others are people I respect and talk with. So why is it, that Palestinians hate us guys? Just because we're Jewish? That's retarded.

2. Defeding themselves from what exactly? I forgot that the IDF just wanders in whenever it wants just to beat up on people. Last I checked, the Jenin incursion was in response to terrorism, not the other way around. Always will be.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by peacelover
Only if you are prepared to blame Israel and its well documented human rights violations of the Palestinians for the suicide bombs. There are some things that nothing can justify - suicide bombs and the jenin incursions are 2 of them.

Hello peacelover,

The Jenin operation is easily justifiable, but needs no justification anyway. It is a proven fact that the town was used to manufacture missiles and bombs and to recruit and train suicide bombers and various other terrorists. It is also a known fact that Jenin was used as a base from which to launch suicide attacks and other terrorism into Israel. Of course, these facts also apply to most other Arab-occupied towns, as well, but Jenin was a particularly nasty cesspool of Islamic terrorism -- much like Tora Bora and other al Qaeda strongholds.

It would be nice of course if all the terrorists left town and went to face the enemy head-to-head, but instead, they preferred to wreak havoc on their own people by using them as human shields.

Like I said, I only regret that it took Israel that long to act in Jenin. Had they done that earlier, perhaps the lives of many innocent Israelis would have been saved.

As for carpet bombing Jenin, I have no desire to see even a single innocent Palestinian harmed in any way. I would have suggested that the IDF ring the town and give the local population 12 hours to leave through a central checkpoint. After that, if there is shooting from any building or any terrorists hiding inside, then the IDF should have blown up that building instead of sending in infantry soldiers to their death.

Really? So you won't criticise Israel for the grave violations that HRW, Amnesty, Christain Aid etc (you know the list by now, I won't repeat it) have all found the IDF to have committed?

No, I did not see any reports of "grave violations" after the facts became known. But I did read endless criticism about Israel not allowing rescue crews into Jenin while the battle was raging. I don't blame Israel at all. Instead, I blame the terrorists who created the situation knowing full well that they are inviting disaster for the local population.

First, we know that Red Crescent ambulances are favorite vehicles to transport bombs and terrorists, so there would be no point in bogging down the Israeli soldiers in the heat of battle, to start checking and double-checking the ambulances coming and going.

Second, during battle, it would have been stupid of the IDF to allow in even more commotion and more confusion in a tight place that is already overcrowded and difficult to manage. If someone would have been hurt as a result of confusion in the battlefield, I am sure that the world would have a field day passing more UN resolutions to condemn Israel.

And, I would also mention that the Palestinian Red Crescent was condemned by all those very same Human Rights organizations and the International red Cross for using ambulances as terrorism transport vehicles.

Come on Newsguy - is Israel a 3 year old child, or is she capable of taking responsibility for her actions? I'm getting seriously offended by the fact you are blaming Palestinians for everything Israel does. How would you feel if I started blaming the Israelis for the Arab terror?

Of course, the official Arab apologists do, in fact, blame Israel and America for all the ills of Arab society, from poverty to terrorism, to lack of education, to public corruption.

But anyway, Israel does take responsibility for her actions, as well as the responsibility for protecting the lives of its citizens. It's very easy within a few months to forget the horrible scenes of dozens of dead Israelis massacred every day by suicide bombers originating in Jenin and similar Palestinian squatter towns.

In all honesty, did you or did the Palestinians think for even one moment that they would be allowed to continue to butcher Israelis without paying a very high price? It is all a calculated war of terrorism, with death of Palestinians civilians taken into account (and even hoped for) by the Islamic terrorist organizations.

After all, it's not like they have any less reason to be mad with you guys, and they have no other means of defending themselves.

Really? Well, last I checked, there were no Israeli terrorists strapping bombs to their bodies and then going into a crowded Palestinian shopping area and mass murdering hundreds of Palestinians. That is a purely Arab method of systematic murder.

As for your second point, do I actually understand you to say that the Palestinians are somehow forced to massacre Israeli children and college students? "no other means of defending themselves???" Who are you kidding?

And what exactly are the Palestinians protecting themselves from? An IDF pullout? Peace talks?

I'm asking because Israel pulled out the IDF years ago, following the Oslo mistake, and also entered into peace talks that were set to result in an independent second Palestinian state. I guess that the Palestinians need to protect themselves from any end to the conflict that would preclude them from destroying the State of Israel and ethnically cleansing the Jews from the Mideast.

[peacelover]

Cerulean - I don't think Arafat could stop Hamas.

I do know it seems wrong that mothers who highly value the lives of their sons should watch their sons die so that mothers who consider their sons' lives valueless can have their sons live

I assume the mother who loves her son is Israeli and the one who thinks her son's life is valueless is the Palestinian - a nice word for that statement would be stereotypical, but I'm tempted to say racist. How dare you say all palestinian mothers don't love their sons? The implication of your statement was that Israeli lives are more important - you essentially said that it's wrong for Israelis to die instead of Palestinians. That is not right.

I do know that the 23 Israeli soldiers who died because they were engaged in risky warfare to help protect Palestinian civilians have given up their lives and the chances to have their own families while protecting the rights of Palestinians to do the same.

So did 26 innocent Palestinians lose that right.

Minus - I should have said Israeli government, not you personally, although I find myself asking what the 9 kids last week did to Israel. Again, a stereotype to say that Jews like Arabs but not vice versa, but I've come to expect it

Defeding themselves from what exactly?

Is that a serious question?

www.hrw.org
www.amnesty.org
www.btselem.org

The Jenin operation is easily justifiable, but needs no justification anyway

To the second part - look at what happened. Look at how it made the Pals suffer. Of course it needs justification.
I do not think it is justifiable. I also think you would not think it was justifiable if it had been Israelis on the receiving end of it.

It would be nice of course if all the terrorists left town and went to face the enemy head-to-head, but instead, they preferred to wreak havoc on their own people by using them as human shields.

You know of course that HRW has found IDF to be responsible for using human shields?

Like I said, I only regret that it took Israel that long to act in Jenin. Had they done that earlier, perhaps the lives of many innocent Israelis would have been saved.

Nope - look how the violence rages on. It will continue to do so while Israeli military responses carry on. Israel will never stop terrorism like this, and I wonder how many more Palestinians will die at the hands of the IDF before Israel realises this. In the interim, many more Israelis will die as well.

No, I did not see any reports of "grave violations" after the facts became known

HRW report - including violations

You must do one of two things - accept Israeli violations, or challenge existing human rights laws. To give reasons for the violations, as you do regarding the red crescent, is not the same as saying they did not occur.

I don't blame Israel at all. Instead, I blame the terrorists who created the situation knowing full well that they are inviting disaster for the local population.

First, we know that Red Crescent ambulances are favorite vehicles to transport bombs and terrorists, so there would be no point in bogging down the Israeli soldiers in the heat of battle, to start checking and double-checking the ambulances coming and going.

Second, during battle, it would have been stupid of the IDF to allow in even more commotion and more confusion in a tight place that is already overcrowded and difficult to manage. If someone would have been hurt as a result of confusion in the battlefield, I am sure that the world would have a field day passing more UN resolutions to condemn Israel.

You know how I feel about you blaming the Palestinians for Israel's wrongdoings. I find it deeply offensive.

As for Red Crescent ambulances, please can you point me to an independent report on how many have died thanks to ambulance bombs compared to how many would still be alive if they had been allowed medical care - A FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT OF ABSOLUTELY EVERYBODY.

Yes there would have been a 'point' to Israel checking the ambulances - to save Palestinian lives. Or is there 'no point' in doing that? And 'commotion and confusion' are not adequate reasons for leaving innocent civilians to bleed to death.

And, I would also mention that the Palestinian Red Crescent was condemned by all those very same Human Rights organizations and the International red Cross for using ambulances as terrorism transport vehicles.

Good - does that mean you now accept that they do find fault with Palestinians as well, further to your claim that they were anti-semitic and as such you did not believe what they said?

But anyway, Israel does take responsibility for her actions, as well as the responsibility for protecting the lives of its citizens. It's very easy within a few months to forget the horrible scenes of dozens of dead Israelis massacred every day by suicide bombers originating in Jenin and similar Palestinian squatter towns.

In all honesty, did you or did the Palestinians think for even one moment that they would be allowed to continue to butcher Israelis without paying a very high price?

If Israel does take responsibility for its actions, how come you keep blaming the Palestinians? No one has forgotten the scenes of carnage at suicide bombs, but some of us don;t think repeat performances (unintended of course) of Palestinians lying dead makes this any better - and time has proven that such policies do not stop suicie attacks in any case.

'In all honesty' - can you expect to be an occupying power with the human rights record of Israel without provoking a response? It's as valid a question as yours - however, despite the provocation, the Palestinian violence is not an acceptbale response to Israeli oppression. Likewise, despite Israel's provocation, violence resulting in huge Palestinian casualites is not an acceptable respose to suicide attacks.

Really? Well, last I checked, there were no Israeli terrorists strapping bombs to their bodies and then going into a crowded Palestinian shopping area and mass murdering hundreds of Palestinians. That is a purely Arab method of systematic murder.

Last time I checked, Israel was the occupying power, responsible for the humiliation and oppression of the Palestinians.

But Israel has dropped a 1 tonne bomb into a civilian building - an action not unlike the terrorists. Any difference you will no doubt highlight is in the MOTIVATION , not the action. Despite what you say about intent, the practical difference is negligible. The point is that Palestinians do have cause to want to defend themselves - surely you cannot dispute that?

Which leads me to my next point...

As for your second point, do I actually understand you to say that the Palestinians are somehow forced to massacre Israeli children and college students? "no other means of defending themselves???" Who are you kidding?

Erm... sorry, where did I say they 'forced' to? What I said was that they have no other means of defending themselves - to my knowledge, this is the case. They have no legitimate army like Israel does. If you can think of a legitimate means of defending themselves, which is comparable to the means of the IDF, let me know.

My point is not to say that the absence of another option justifies suicide bombings, rather to say that the right to self-defence may exist, but not everything may be justifiable within that realm. This applies to Palestinian terror - but it also applies to the fact that while Israel may purport to be defending herself, this does not justify everything she does.

And what exactly are the Palestinians protecting themselves from? An IDF pullout? Peace talks?

Very funny - you know the human rights links by now. And last time i checked, Israel was refusing to negotiate. Perhaps you need to look closer to home to see about why there are no peace talks.

I'm asking because Israel pulled out the IDF years ago, following the Oslo mistake, and also entered into peace talks that were set to result in an independent second Palestinian state. I guess that the Palestinians need to protect themselves from any end to the conflict that would preclude them from destroying the State of Israel and ethnically cleansing the Jews from the Mideast

I liked this!

Firstly, the IDf should not have been there in the first place - never should have been, so Israel deserves no congratulations whatsoever for its withdrawal. The peace talks did not work out - but you are naive if you put the blame for this squarely at the feet of Arafat. He was right to reject Camp david... but wrong not to make a counter offer. However, if the Camp david 'offer' was 'generous', any offer that was genuinely fair to the Palestinians they neednt have made - Barak would have told them where to go (although, that may have taken the wind out of the sails of those who wish to use Camp david as evidence that Arafat does not want a 2 state solution - and therefore give justification to Israel's policies. Fancy that - angelic little Israel is capable of rejecting an offer deemed unfair! Would that have meant Israel didn't want peace?)

To your second point... are you telling me that Israel wants a 2 state solution? Shame half the population disagrees according to Ha'aretz.... I can also point to the hurried settlement expansion and Likud vote against a future Palestinian state as evidence that Israel is in no hurry to see Palestine on the map.

[Mediocrates]

What I said was that they have no other
means of defending themselves - to my knowledge, this is the case. They have no legitimate army like Israel does. If you can think of a legitimate means of defending themselves, which is comparable to the means of the IDF, let me know.

Tell that to the parents of 300 Israeli children murdered so far. Look them in the eye and say it out loud.

[elke]

I am sorry, but this argument that "this is all they got" is ridiculous. Regardless of how much it may pain me to say this, but what about running a regular guerilla warfare, the way everyone else seems to have been able to do, from time immemorial? What about military bases as targets? Why concentrate on cafes, schools, and homes? Not only would it draw more people into the Palestinian camp, but it would actually be more effective for them. That's a classic David and Goliath story, not terrorism against women and children.

[peacelover]

Mediocrates:

What I meant, as I think you are aware, is not that suicide bombings are OK. I would never dream of saying suicide bombs are OK to ANYONE, let alone the victims' parents (would you tell the family that lost 6 members in the Gaza airstrike that that was OK? Just a thought...)

My point, as I will say again, is that not everything is acceptable in the realms of self-defence. I gave suicide bombings as an example. Of what is not acceptable . Therefore, clearly, I have said that suicdide bombs are not acceptable. So what's your problem?

I would happily say to the parents of the victims that although Palestinians don't have the means to defend themselves that Israelis do, suicide bombs are not an acceptable way of going about it.

Do you understand now?

My point - Palestinians have little means of self-defence except terrorism - but they still should not do it because it is wrong and causes such pain to the Israelis.

The IDF have little means of self-defence but to lauch air-strikes on the Palestinians - but they still shouldn't do it because it is wrong.

I hope that clears up any misconceptions you may have had

[Micah]

Yes yes, the suicide bombers are wrong, BUUUUUUT....

Israel is humiliating and opressing the poor Palestinians.

And damn the Israelis for actually thinking of themselves for once!