Home | 
'crickets' is for people not involved in denying mass murder, rape, theft, and ethnic cleansing of Jews. I wont debate Holocaust deniers; I also will not debate you on the same principle. You haven't proven a damn thing, quite the inverse, that's public record here, unless you delete it.
Israel has protected herself at the expense of having the largest per capita and per sector allocation for defense in the world. Well that might be debatable in light of recent US defense spending but in either case it's way way up there. They also have a transparent western facing society. So yes what happens there tends to get exposure. Does anyone know that the main airport in Sri Lanka is closed for days at a time because of mortar fire?
Back to Israel - that's the choice they made. They figured it was do or die, literally. Become an armed state on permanent alert. I don't know if we here would do that. We can't even tolerate this nonsense security we live under now and there is no real threat to worry about at least not one you can safely predict. Anyway the strategy of terrorism here would be radically different than the strategy of terrorism there. Here it would be to get us to something different at a distance, (Iraq). There it's to kill and terrorize people outright in order to make it unfeasible for them to live there. - - - Anyway - - - Arab on Arab violence is huge, it has been for a century or more. In most of the world, groupA vs. groupB violence is massive. 10x the fatalities of Iraq just in Congo since 1993. A million dead in Biafra. And so on. Are the Arab states better than that? Ok some beauty contest.
How they treated their Jews 1948-54 was brutal, often tearing families apart and kicking out the parents at gunpoint. Statistically their record of de-Judification was better than the Holocaust. But, But, and here is the big difference, nearly a million were marched out and sent to live their lives in Israel and elsewhere. Mostly Israel. If you were a Yemeni or Sephardi, where would you go? Yaffo or Philadelphia? Especially when the US wasn't holding the door open. Let's not forget that even after WW2 the US did not have an open immigration policy for DP's. A few came here but not that many. Where would you go? To Israel. Where would you then decide to fight you last stand? Israel. Where else was there?
If you're in any way addressing what has developed in this thread, well I certainly cant disagree with your assessment. I debated a person who cynically compared everything under the moon to the Holocaust, denigrating the memories of my family and countless others who perished in it. Furthermore, this person made a craven attempt to brush off, as you say:
This in stark distinction to what I have a problem with:How they treated their Jews 1948-54 was brutal, often tearing families apart and kicking out the parents at gunpoint. Statistically their record of de-Judification was better than the Holocaust.
I've encountered this MO a number of times on other forums at the fingertips of numerous other Arabs and Muslims. I understand there is good reason to keep a diversified membership- I personally like the fact that there are people that would debate history, Jewish or otherwise. But even I have red lines, and unlike the politicians in Israel I like to stick to mine; I encourage all Jews to do the same.A million Jews moved out of Arab countries over the period since the creation of Israel. They were heavily assisted and encouraged by AFIAK. Most of them were not robbed at gunpoint, simply that they didn't have the opportunities or the comfort that they could achieve elsewhere. Over a period of nearly a century you can find cases of murderous riots, but those were not the norm by any means.
I'm not debating. This history I got from Jewish sources. The Jewish Virtual Library says that 10000 Jews died in every Israeli war up to and including the Yom Kippur war. Your implication is that significantly more Jews were killed by Arabs (and by significant, we're talking a factor of 100 or more) during riots than during wars with bombs and tanks. I'd like you to quantify these riots and massacres. I've yet, using Jewish sources, to come across one that cost 1000 Jewish lives and most were less than a hundred, focused around the late forties and early fifties and cost tens of lives, not hundreds, not thousands.Originally Posted by bararallu
Meanwhile there has been a huge and concerted effort to convince the Jews of the world that they will be killed for setting foot in any Muslim country in the world. Billions have been spent resettling Jews to Israel so as to continue and increase their demographic superiority there so that Israel can exist as a religion based state while assisting in destroying all other theocracies.
BTW, I really don't care what is for the good of Israel. I'm happy for the success of Jews whether they live in Israel or elsewhere. It's the demonization of people like myself and my family that irks me. We are being associated with a pogrom which we did not commit. Personally, I'm more connected with American slavery and genocide against the indians. My ancestors did do that, and it was much worse than anything the Arabs did to the Jews. The Jim Crow laws were still in effect when I was growing up. Talk about Dhimmitude!
Indeed, some ugly beauty contest. But, in reality, against the ugliest of the ugly Muslims and Arabs won that contest. They never delivered up a Rwandan or Congo war sized massacre against the Jews. They weren't the Nazis of Auschwitz. That's the facts. Now let's get to the perception.
The perception is that NOTHING has compared with Arab, Muslim violence in any way EVER. I can't count the number of threads around here where I am told that I'm a fool not to admit that the Arabs are the most bloodthirsty lot that ever lived and that they are the cause of everything bad in the world and that the world would be a paradise if they were to exit existence.
Can one of the esteemed moderators possibly change the title of this thread? Obviously, the Jewish community is a reality based community, and as such we should rename it more appropriately (to reflect reality of course): "The Dajjal: Judaism’s Moslem Antichrist." I for one welcome our revisionist jizia collecting betters.
I didn't come up with it in the first place. It's obviously aimed at inflaming Jewish readers. And the Jewish readers on this forum evidently enjoy being inflamed as they focus constantly on topics that involve violence in preference to any other topic of human interest. Although, let me be the first to say that those who do show a wonderful human face and give hope for a better future.
Whatever anyone, the Prophet, the Quran, the Sunna or any medieval philosopher said about Judaism is a tiny, tiny portion of what Islam is about. It is not a religion created to destroy Jews, it is another manifestation of monotheism. There is no mention of Jews in any of the five pillars of Islam or in the prayers we say each day. Mention of Jews in the Quran generally refer to historic incidents.
If we all stop focusing on the details of our mutually exclusive versions of the Day of Judgement and start focusing on the daily requirements to achieve Paradise, the world would be a better place and we can achieve mutually constructive relationships.
Paging all Jews! How many virgins (or raisins) are promised we in the Torah for killing infidels en mass? come on folks it's got to be at least 10 chaste girls or jinnis or houris or at least 10,000 sun dried raisins. Now that's what I call paradise!.
FYI, there are NO 72 virgins promised to Muslims in the Quran. In the collected hadith of Tirmidi, the word houris translated to be virgins by someone I'm sure I don't know. It doesn't refer to anything human, because it is a description of Paradise where the human body doesn't exist according to our beliefs. The proper translation would be something like nymphs or fairies or something in that category.Paging all Jews! How many virgins (or raisins) are promised we in the Torah for killing infidels en mass? come on folks it's got to be at least 10 chaste girls or jinnis or houris or at least 10,000 sun dried raisins. Now that's what I call paradise!
They are described as pure. And pure translated as virgin is more a comment on the translator than on Muslims. Your own acceptance of such a lowly description says more about your preconceptions of Islam than it does about the facts. Presumably there is more to the rapture of Heaven than the pleasures of the flesh as we know them on earth. It's small minded and even mean spirited to limit your imagination thusly.
Correction #2: If you are a believing Jew then you are not to me an infidel, but rather a person of the Book. If you want to be an infidel and expect me to make Jihad on you because of that, you'll need to attack me first. If I were to attack you first, you have the right to defend yourself and your religion. Same here. But even so, Jihad does not give me a right to continue attacking after you stop attacking me. I might add that the laws of the United States and the Constitution also allow me to defend myself as well as the right to bear arms. Anything beyond defense and protection would, in my opinion accord under the Quranic "transgressing bounds".
Oh I'm aware, hence the mention. Just wish the worlds madrassas set their sites on al-jihad bi-l-saif/Ghazawat/Razzia against nymphs and jinnis rather than Jews and other kaffirs.The proper translation would be something like nymphs or fairies or something in that category.
Thats really nice, not that I care what you consider me or any Jews, but it's rather irrelevant in the big picture (aka amongst those that make decisions and set policy). The Saudi-Egyptian and Iranian entities are beset to thoroughly, and from their position theologically justifiably, demonify and then annihilate all Jews on Earth, starting with those in Israel. Then they'll get to the Sundays, as my fav pastry seller from the old city likes to say, and then the rest of the not conformists.Correction #2: If you are a believing Jew then you are not to me an infidel, but rather a person of the Book.
Yes, indeed, your opinion... In my opinion, my mere breathing constitutes a transgression to much of the Muslim, esp. Arabic, world.Anything beyond defense and protection would, in my opinion accord under the Quranic "transgressing bounds".
Why don't you give the Islamic definition of Usurpation of the Islamic Waqf, of Dar al-islam generally, to the studio audience ya Andak? Why don't you explain to the run-of-the-mill Jew how a Hudna works in relation to the previous concept. Explain to us how the Ummah is wrong in this:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
Then again why bother, since you will diligently cherry pick your sources and stories to conform to your (nothing personal now) white washing prerogatives, then again war is deceit isnt it?
And why shouldn't they?
Pardon me, but I am part of the big picture, and seven million other American Muslims, including my whole family of American citizens. So are millions of Muslims living in Europe, in Mexico, in South America, in Australia, in China. Not all of us conform to your Fox News stereotype.Thats really nice, not that I care what you consider me or any Jews, but it's rather irrelevant in the big picture...
I'm afraid you've redefined that concept yourself to a point that the word no longer has any meaning. The fact that the Quran considers breaking covenants and treaties a mortal sin is lost on you.Why don't you explain to the run-of-the-mill Jew how a Hudna works in relation to the previous concept.
Because you F00L, the Ummah didn't say that.Explain to us how the Ummah is wrong in this:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
I don't think so. You and Farmall make it clear how you would deal with us all if you ran things. Fact is, you don'tThen again why bother, since you will diligently cherry pick your sources and stories to conform to your (nothing personal now) white washing prerogatives, then again war is deceit isnt it?
Because what goes around comes around- you may also know it as the golden rule.And why shouldn't they?
1. I don't watch fox news... sorry to break your narrow world view but I really don't conform to it, I'm neither a social conservative or a neocon. I don't care a wit about Iraqi oil or Islamic head dress code. Not all of us conform to your derangement. 2. if you mean that Muslim community which is widely known to be represented by CAIR, an organization that has had members convicted of aiding and abetting terrorism, that to this day will not condemn mass murder of Jews, that are mostly funded by the Saudis and the gulf Arabs, the same people that set up Jihadi madrassas in Pakistan and fund Hamas, well yeah with friends like that who needs enemies. Oh but I forget you are proscribed not to take Jews for friends aren't you?Pardon me, but I am part of the big picture, and seven million other American Muslims, including my whole family of American citizens.... Not all of us conform to your Fox News stereotype.
There is nothing, from my perspective, moral about Mohamed's life, but thats really irrelevant to me- what I care about is the threat and execution of genocide against my people. Something you have been woefully unable to cover up no matter what hand wringing and poo-pooing you have attempted.I'm afraid you've redefined that concept yourself to a point that the word no longer has any meaning. The fact that the Quran considers breaking covenants and treaties a mortal sin is lost on you.
The ummah says a lot of things, what things ring in my ear resound in genocide extolling cartoon characters on state owned television; they are sounded with blasts packed with rat poison imbued glass shards and screws; they are chanted by the millions men and women and children in the streets of Arab and Muslim capitals far and wide. I'd certainly would be a FOOL if I believed your slights of hand to make my ears and eyes, and my reason betray me.Because you F00L, the Ummah didn't say that.
Really when have I called for genocide of Arabs or demonify them theologically or racially?I don't think so. You and Farmall make it clear how you would deal with us all if you ran things. Fact is, you don't
I'm not sure why you are so keen to compare me to anyone, why this has in fact degenerated into argumentum ad hominem (and I'm sorry to all the readers that I've participated in such a vitriolic debate) but the facts stand, rhetoric notwithstanding: There is a well funded well organized campaign to demonify the Jews by primarily Arab governments as well as all Wahhabi and Khomeneist religious organization as a foundation to execute a genocide against the Jews. If I didn't own and had used a gas mask then maybe you can call me paranoid, what I'm not is a contorter of truth.
Last edited by bararallu; 05-10-2007 at 08:13 AM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks