is peace really possible?

[ayesha]

upon the advice of a fellow member i have decided to post one of my previous posts here in order to see if any constructive views could be added.

It's interesting to read your views in this thread, although I'm a Lebanese woman and not sure I'm welcome here. Nevertheless, upon readingother sites, I wish to add a few words of my own opinion.

Peace is a state of being that all communities should strive for, a state in which everyone works and lives in harmony and co-operation. Sounds reasonable. However, is it really necessary? I hear people saying peace is not an option nowadays, Israelis and Palestinians do not want peace, and so peace is not desired. Let's check this..

The situation as it is now is not acceptable. A life of fear, anger and hate professed on both sides. Let's examine the different solutions as they are perceived from different points of view. Some Palestinians suggest to continue armed resistance and to build up military power and force Israel to withdraw its occupation. To answer this I point to Israel's extensive military experience and technology, and also point to statistics of recent years concerning territories, casualties and their knock-on effects on the economy. Armed resistance means completely destroying the land, with little or no progress to freedom.

Some Israelis suggest to transfer or, better stil, eradicate the entire Palestinian population. However, to answer this I must say that wherever the Arab/Palestinian may be, ambitions will not be surpressed and their desire to fight for their cause will only increase with time. No fence or border will ever protect Israel from this, and she is shown this time and time again. Transfer only means perpetuating Palestinian actions against Israel. Continued clashes will worsen the Palestinians' life and thus strenthen the armed resistance and guerilla warfare.

Of course, only a peace agreement will eventually lead to true safety. Any other 'solution' means either hiding behind an illusion of safety or perpetuating the dangers through endless conflict, where no side can 'win'.

The question remains, how shall we decide what is the desired fair peace? Who gets what and why? Many ould clearly say the right thing to do in order to judge this is to go to history books and see exactly what happened, and rule according to this information. That is the right thing to do in my opinion as well.
But is it really that simple?
There is no history. This is easily seen from the vast information on the web, where all points of view are mixed, not bound by any border. Studying the available histories can create some confusion. There are extreme differences between histories as each side portrays it. Can we reach a mutual decision about one, true history? There is in my books and maybe that has a lot with me being lebanese. But then to ba fair and true I tell myself that the roots of why the Jews feel a connection to the land is irrelevant. The feeling is enough.

Some Israelis might say "We are fighting a war, Palestinians don't want peace, they're not ready for self-governing, will never abandon the way of violence."
Some Palestinians might say "We are being occupied by a vicious, ruthless army, and though the Israeli government claims to be 'peaceful' they really want surrender NOT peace."
On both sides you will find people saying "They seek to destroy us." Even agreeing on the present is not simple. Except maybe, hat things should not continue as they are.

Obviously, there is a clash concerning territories and governing, concerning rights and obligations, concerning limits and borders. However, I believe that there is a middle point that both sides can agree on, and once this common ground is found things will be different. How different? Peace? Love? Happiness? I doubt it. BUT there will be TOLERANCE. I may hate my neighbour playing loud music long into the early hours BUT I could tolerate it for a while, and then maybe have a quiet word if things persist - agreeing that as long as s/he chooses an appropriate time I'd be ok with it. We could write up a timetable and stick to it..sounds trivial but I think the principle is quite relevant and reliable.

Nevertheless, even then there will be a long road ahead. But the change could mean that things could finally start moving in a positive direction. Obviously change will not be easy and it will be frustrating, but the way things are today they seem to be going downhill, deeper into an abyss that will be impossible to get out of. Leading to more destruction, more bitterness and more death. Then less understanding and consequently bigger gaps to bridge.

To have a durable condition of safety and peace there cannot be a situation in which neighbouring people have extremely different living conditions. - Where some have a relatively prosperous life and others a life of poverty with distinct cruel differences. A rich nation neighbouring an extremely poor one. Why not? because sucha difference will create financial dependence, and will rvive, strengthen and justify resentment and friction between the two sides. Moreover, if the difference is extreme, it will lead to the poorer side giving birth to extreme actions..here's where the suicide bombing takes effect. Also, it will lead to the richer side giving birth to ideas of superiority, and contempt to exploit.

So, it is an objective to create prosperity throughout the region, to build up the Palestinians' quality of life, be it industry or schooling. The current situation only serves to cripple what is left of the Palestinian economy. So an immediate step to final peace must be to stop ruining the Palestinian economy. Nonetheless, more steps are needed, many more, and the financial aid can only be gained through a peace agreement, by international financial aids to support peace.

It is agreed by most people concerned with the conflict, that the solution will be two territories, one to Israelis, one to Palestinians. The difficult thing to agree on is the line between those two territories.

So how can a border line be agreed by everyone? We should remember that both Palestinians need space to work, live and cultivate land.
Agreement must be based on mutual recognition.
Agreement must be based on equality between the sides.
These are necessary in order to form any sort of foundation for equal and just negotiations, negotiations leading to a border-agreement that will not be a source for further dispute.

The fate of Jerusalem, the right of return and the settlemets are all controversial issues. Countless different opinions, demands and arguments. The different solutions propsed must be reviewed by both parties. To either, some solutions may seem acceptable and other solutions may not BUT few solutions will seem like outright insanity! What is likely to happen is not a single negotiation will immediately be tagged as acceptable by both parties. However, as in any negotiation, ONE of the solutions can and will be agreed upon.
Big stones can be moved and it will take time, effort and long, painful talks. Difficult but possible.

The past is a good teacher. It has taught us that a peoples' self-determination cannot be surpressed and must not be dictated.
The past teaches us that a situation in which behind a fence people live in hunger, fear and humilation is not tolerable and only nds in both sides' sacred blood being spilled.

[ayesha]

how about if we take the same structure used for Washington D.C.? It doesnt belong to ANY group yet is governed by all??
just a thought

[Simon]

A good idea in principle.

The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Without that, everything you have written is worthless.

[Rafman]

If I understand you correctly, what you say makes sense. It's unrealistic to think that on one nice and sunny day, Israelies and Palestinians will sit down, sign a peiece of paper and peace will come from it... It simply won't happen that way.


and what Simon says, well is just as unrealistic. You say we need to "start" by reversing the brainwash by islamic fanatics, and i say that is not a start, that is the heart, the whole of the problem. If you fix that, you fix the problem, and that is much easier said than done.


I agree ayesha to the extent that, the bad living conditions that Palestinians are currently living it makes them more susceptible to want to just blame it on Israel, and thus hate them for it. I mean sure, everyone here in america always says, money is everything. If you have money, everything is possible. I'm sure the mentality in the Middle East is the exact same thing. If the Palestinian economy was striving, if they were making money much of the hatred towards Israel would be relegated as a secondary issue.

So if there is a way to revive the economic status of the Palestinians, no doubt it would greatly help this struggle. However, the problem is everything is tied to terrorism in the end. Its due to terrorist attacks that Israel empose strict sanctions and curfiews, to prevent more attacks, which hurt the economy. To revive the palestinian economy as you say, means to give them much, much more freedom than they currently have, but that would inevitably lead to more terrorist acts, so it won't happen in the current state of things

What really needs to be done, is for the PA to get new leadership. A new responsible leader, who will fight the terrorism actively. That might open up the route to peace

[ibrodsky]

Ayesha,

Please understand that when some of us ask whether peace is necessary, we are not saying that a state of peace between the two peoples is undesirable.

The point is whether we must return to the official "peace process" or if near-term security and stability can be obtained in some other way.

The idea of expelling Palestinians from the WB and perhaps Gaza is an idea that would have no meaningful support if there were not Palestinian terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians.

Ayesha, there is more to peace than just resolving controversial issues. It is well known that many Palestinian militants believe in a two-step plan to destroy Israel. They have publicly said so. Israelis are perhaps split on whether Jerusalem can and should be divided. Few Israelis, however, see the "right of return" of large numbers to inside Israel as anything but a Trojan horse. Particularly when placed side-by-side with the Palestinian demand that Jewish settlements be dismantled.

Thus, there has to be evidence of a genuine desire for peace -- not just talking "peace" as a tactical maneuvre.

The first demand of those who sincerely seek peace is a halt to terrorist attacks. It is well known to everyone that Israel would not have forces in Palestinin towns and cities today were it not for these attacks. Those who pretend the terrorist attacks are a response to renewed military presence are shameless liars.

But if the Palestinian side is not willing to really shut down terrorist groups, then certainly Israel does not need a false "peace" in which mass murder attacks just keep on coming. The PA can "condemn" terrorist attacks but to them that is just a little white lie.

This is why Palestinians must find a leader who is not a notorious terrorist. If they refuse to do so, that tells us they really don't want peace -- that the people who say Israel will be destroyed even if it takes another 100 years are still firmly in charge.

[Mediocrates]

Or you could look at it this way. You could say it's either awfully ironic, of almost biblical proportions, or amazingly fortuitous that Israel is the sharp point of the spear in the fight between Islamism and the West and that no peace is possible until radical Islamism is smashed into the dust.

Expansionist, dominant Islamism has been in decline since the Rennaissance in the West and radical Islamism & fundamentalism is the inevitable backlash to that decline. One could make a case that ANY non Islamic culture or country plunked down there would generate more or less the same reaction from the Arab states that by way were patched together in the same helter skelter way of some British Mandarin waving a pointer over a map.

There is absolutely nothing unique or special or traditional or treasured or sacred or holy about ANY borders in the Mid East and SW Asia and all the yawping carping revisionist idiots need to understand that one basic fact.

Just this Myrmidon's opinion. Hand me my spear.

[elke]

I agree with you, Ayesha: prosperity is the key. Once people have something to lose, they think twice (at least) before doing something that has a chance at losing what they have. However, this prosperity cannot come from aid alone. The aid should be nothing more nor less than a leg up.

In the 21st century, the key to prosperity is education. Secular education, I might add. Practical sciences: i.e. chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology, are the life-blood of any modern economy.

While these sciences are not necessarily incompatible with religion per se, they are indeed incompatible with the very concept of fanaticism of any sort. With religious fanaticism, we can see it in the battles for Creationism to be taught in schools, the vitriolic rhetoric spewed out by the mullahs of all denominations against organ transplants, and so on and so forth. With political fanaticism, the time, energy, and human ability that can be spent on improving the lot of the members in the society is instead wasted away on attempts to achieve the unrealistic, and even undesirable, goals. This has got to change, in all societies that aspire to better life for their people!

One positive side effect of the concentration on the sciences rather than religion or other such nebulous subjects, is the necessary commitment to the Scientific Method. As far as I am concerned, the most important development Enlightenment brought to the Western civilization is just that.

Since UN is responsible for the education of the Palestinians, it is inconceivable to me that they haven't figured this out. Like any other people, Palestinians need their doctors, scientists, engineers, and chemists - they shouldn't have to rely on other communities to provide them with these services. There is nothing inherently wrong with their mental capacities, as attested to by the success of many outside. Therefore, this must be the failure of their educational system. Quite apart from the ideological incitement, there is simply inadequate education: not in terms of facts, but rather in terms of the ways and means of acquiring knowledge, and most importantly, critical thinking skills . As far as I am concerned, the most concerted effort at this time should be put on revamping just that .

[victot]

you know how every year there are such events as a TOUR DE FRANCE, a WIMBLEDON, and such and such...
I think if israel and the palestinians could ever make peace, there should be some kind of a yearly event which the whole world watches. like peace day or something, where 10,000,000 million people or something flock to the middle of west bank and israel (?jerusalem?) to celebrate the yearly event...
If something big like that could happen every year, bye-bye economic problems to both israel and the palestinians.
i think such a thing would be great, cuz people love big events, and biblical israel, (?jerusalem? no less) would be a great worldly location for such a gathering, cuz most of the world is thinking of that place on a daily basis anyways.

[elke]

Great idea, Victot! The only problem, of course, is how to assure adequate security from the nuts and flakes at such an event.

[Teacake]

I agree with you, Ayesha: prosperity is the key. Once people have something to lose, they think twice (at least) before doing something that has a chance at losing what they have.

A westen mind thinks this way. Don't forget that more progress was made on the deal with Barak, they were on the brink of statehood and responded with starting a war rather than raising a flag.

Don't forget that all 19 of the 911 attack were university educated and led prosperious lifestyles. They all have a lot to live for and chose to die.

Does anyone really believe that if the pals got a state that all the other terror networks working globally would just clap their hands for joy and give up jihad? Very very doubtful. Israel is the red herring.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/sl...s/slide_1.html

[elke]

Well, natural selection also works among civilizations, not just biological entities. It's not accidental that the Western civilization, its faults notwithstanding, is the dominant culture in the world today. Its strength is in its ability to absorb the useful concepts from any other cultures it encounters and treat them with respect.

The Romans were powerful so long as they followed this simple principle of tolerance to others. So were the Arabs - again, so long as they showed at least a modicum of respect to the cultures they ruled. Once this respect eroded, both of these colossi tumbled. Very instructive, studying history.

[Mediocrates]

Prosperity is not the key. It's important but not the key. Radicalism comes from the educated middle class not the poor. What is key is to disavow oneself of the notion of inevitable cultural supremacy and the destiny of nationhood.

They don't exist.

The Palistinians will never get all that they claim they want. Never. That is a 1000% certainty.

The Israelis will never remove them from the WB and Gaza. Never happen. Bank on it.

Stalemate.

Ok what do you do? You settle for what you can live with. I will ask the PA boosters here for the 9th time Is a Free Palistine a Jew Free Palistine. Does that question make you faux Marxists uncomfortable? Haven't figured out meaningless babble PR text you would answer that one with yet? Don't worry I'll keep asking until you do, poseurs. At any rate let's say you lie to me and say "sure we can accept them". How many then? Half of what's there now?, A quarter, all of them? which is it? Do they have to swear an oath to Allah to vote? Are they dhimmi?

And so on. What are your actual criteria for success?

The Palistinians want to move back to Israel. Ok what if that is limited to the first 100,00 people who show up? Does that work for you? What are your actual success critera?

You want Jerusalem? Well isn't that nice. You're not going to get it. Not all of it. You're not going to be allowed to drop rocks on Jews at the Wall. And there will be a huge number of other limitations that modern people living in a modern city have to obey. So get with the program or just rejoin the Bronze Age somewhere else.

Peace is possible if you understand that the purpose of peace is provide an opportunity to do something besides be at war. It's not a cessation of hostilities, it's not an interregnum, a process, a group hug, a PR event or a reason to rearm and saddle up. It's a state or condition of not killing one another most of the time. What you do with it otherwise is largely your problem. And that is a huge problem.

I think the PA knows this: a productive peace is much more difficult to achieve and make something of than an interminable war. War is easy. Aim, fire, repeat. Which is why they are so intent on war.

So, you have to understand what you're willing to live with; a workable agreement or a dream of paradise. Take the first option because life is brutal, unfair and short. Get over it.

[ayesha]

israel's closure policy and restriction of movement

perhaps most harmful to palestinian human, civil and economic rights has been israel's policy of closure, in effect since March 1993 which severely limits palestinians' feedom of movement.

B'Tselem, a leading israeli human rights monitoring organisation states, israel's neglect of the educational, health, economic and ultural infrastructure of the WB and Gaza during more than 35 years o military occupation and rendered palestinians overly dependent on services and resources accessible only within israel or jerusalem. thus, closure constitutes a chillingly effective form of collective punishment, as it brings palestinian economic, medical, and educational life to a virtual halt.

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers. according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by Simon
A good idea in principle.

The first step should be the reversing of brainwashing that islamic fanatics have indulged in for decades. Stop teaching hatred to children in schools as is done in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

mmm to an extent ur right simon, but how? any suggestions?

[MGB8]

First, the closures are not curfews (those are different), so places of worship and inter-town things remain open. Food shipments and aid shipments still come.

However, the thing about the closure, while you may find them draconian, they are the most peaceful way of stopping suicide bombers.

And frankly, Israeli LIVES matter more to me than the Palestinian economy.

Originally posted by ayesha
israel's closure policy and restriction of movement

perhaps most harmful to palestinian human, civil and economic rights has been israel's policy of closure, in effect since March 1993 which severely limits palestinians' feedom of movement.

B'Tselem, a leading israeli human rights monitoring organisation states, israel's neglect of the educational, health, economic and ultural infrastructure of the WB and Gaza during more than 35 years o military occupation and rendered palestinians overly dependent on services and resources accessible only within israel or jerusalem. thus, closure constitutes a chillingly effective form of collective punishment, as it brings palestinian economic, medical, and educational life to a virtual halt.

israel's draconian closure policy, which denies palestinians the freedom to travel easily or at all between variuos areas, places of worship etc and into israel or jerusalkem to pursue work, education, or medical care, has crippled the palestinian economy and caused economic suffering to scores of palestinian families, who now find thenselves in much worse straits than they did during the days of outright israeli military administration. in gaza, 40% of all households are living well below the poverty line, some are so desperate they have sold their own children to strangers. according to the world bank, the direct cost of israelis closure to the palestinian economy is over 5 million $ per day.