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Thread: Comander dismissed, soldiers to face criminal charges--for doing their jobs!

  1. #1
    KettleWhistle
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    Comander dismissed, soldiers to face criminal charges--for doing their jobs!

    Regiment commander to be dismissed over Naalin incident
    Crime and punishment: Chief military prosecutor decides to dismiss armored corps lieutenant colonel after IDF soldier filmed shooting handcuffed Palestinian; commander, shooter to face criminal charges
    Hanan Greenberg
    Published:
    08.06.08, 20:06 / Israel News
    First report: Regiment Commander Lieutenant Colonel Omri will be dismissed from his post in the wake of an incident where an IDF soldier fired a rubber bullet at a handcuffed Palestinian, Ynet has found.

    The IDF's chief prosecutor also decided that the commander and the firing soldier will face criminal charges of improper conduct. Such offences are considered relatively minor and do not result in a criminal record. The trial is expected to end in a plea bargain.
    For the time being it has also been decided that Lt. Col. Omri will not be able to hold command positions in the future. IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi is expected to meet with the dismissed commander and discuss his future in the military.
    An indictment against the two soldiers is expected to be filed in the coming days. A plea bargain could see both of them handed a conditional sentence.
    Did commander lie?

    The investigation into the affair started after a Palestinian girl filmed an IDF soldier firing a rubber bullet at a handcuffed Palestinian who clashed with forces in the Naalin area. Once the probe got under way, investigators discovered disagreements between the soldier and his commander. The soldier claimed that he fired at the Palestinian on the orders of Lt. Col. Omri. However, Omri said he did not issue such order, but rather, only wanted to scare the Palestinian.
    Subsequent polygraph tests indicated that the commander lied in his interrogation while the soldier was telling the truth.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    He shot a captured prisoner. This is a crime.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  3. #3
    farmall
    Guest
    He did it where he could be filmed, which was "worse than a crime, a blunder".

  4. #4
    Mason
    Guest
    Even if you are under orders to commit something which is illegal, it is still against the law. All you would have to do is plead to someone who is higher in power, and then the proper actions would be taken place against the one who ordered you to commit the crime.

  5. #5
    farmall
    Guest
    Laws that protect the enemy are not worthy of respect. There is a technical requirement to obey them, not a moral one, because moral obligations to cultural enemies do not exist.

    With the right social conditions, such laws can even be kept on the books for selective enforcement against the enemy only. It is IMO absurd to care very much about injuring mortal enemies that must be removed from Israel if Israel is to survive as a Jewish state.

    Of course it is up to Israeli Jews to determine if their moral code requires social suicide. I merely suggest that since "rules" are a matter of current fashion (no matter what other nonsense people pretend) that they may be ignored or changed. It is possible for thinking people to act outside the standard social conditioning, once they realize the only purpose of that conditioning is to make them submissive to the government.

  6. #6
    frizzer1
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by farmall View Post
    He did it where he could be filmed, which was "worse than a crime, a blunder".
    Oh come on.
    He ordered the shooting of a prisoner..that is the crime.

  7. #7
    farmall
    Guest
    "He ordered the shooting of a prisoner..that is the crime."

    There is no reason to care about such technicalities. A dirty war is required, because there is no possible way to win otherwise. Law will not help, and conventional morality is weakness in cultural war. Law can be applied to friends yet denied enemies. It is a simple decision.

    Shooting the prisoner was a moderate public relations error, that is all. He should have been sniped as an enemy combatant (legal, for those who care) instead of captured, because the custom of "catch and release" only ensures the enemy will kidnap Israelis in order to boost the release rate.

  8. #8
    nbarzelay
    Guest
    Farmall, this is hardly considered a 'technicality' even if you manage to stretch it. Shooting a handcuffed person regardless of the situation goes against every rules of engagement, convention and moral/ethical standard. End of story.

  9. #9
    ShimonG
    Guest
    We return five healthy palis to the Hamas. They return two dead jews. The palis returned will kill more jews. our dead jews remain dead.

    Under the circumstances, i have to agree with farmall. there is no reason to be civilized when facing an uncivilized enemy that cares nothing for basic human decency.

  10. #10
    farmall
    Guest
    "Shooting a handcuffed person regardless of the situation goes against every rules of engagement, convention and moral/ethical standard. End of story."

    One may choose different ROE, ignore the convention, and understand that moral standards need not be applied when dealing with cultural enemies.

    They are only expessions of preference that we have been taught by social programming. That is all. One may examine such standards to understand WHY they exist (to impose the framework for a reasonable society of FRIENDS) and that they are situationally rather than universally applicable.

    Everything you mention, these "rules", were not designed for cultural warfare. They would be fine for chivalrous duels between aristocrats, but we are in a different world where they are merely impediments.

    The "personhood" of the Islamonazi in handcuffs couldn't matter less. Plinking him with a rubber bullet was "wrong" because it was counterproductive. He should have been taken out of the fight by lethal riot control means, not captured and "played with" by angry soldiers. Such acts encourage sadism, which is both useless and counterproductive. When I clean a toilet, I don't play with the excrement.


    It is not a matter of what our enemies "deserve", it is a matter of what can be useful in prosecuting the war.

    It is not a matter of hating our enemies, it is that any humane consideration for them has been rendered pointless by their initiation of cultural war, and more specifically, their use of our "laws", designed for friends, as shelter. After that, everything becomes a matter of "calculation" as opposed to "obligation".

    They exist to wipe us out or enslave us to theocracy. That means, to me, we are free to do absolutely anything to stop that from happening, and that any self-imposed restrictions can be dispensed with. In the binary choice between us and them, I choose us.

    "We return five healthy palis to the Hamas. They return two dead jews. The palis returned will kill more jews. our dead jews remain dead."

    It is reasonable to expect they will continue to work indirectly and perhaps directly to kill Jews. They wouldn't be available to do this had they been killed instead of captured, or shot while trying to escape after field interrogation.

  11. #11
    nbarzelay
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by ShimonG View Post
    We return five healthy palis to the Hamas. They return two dead jews. The palis returned will kill more jews. our dead jews remain dead.

    Under the circumstances, i have to agree with farmall. there is no reason to be civilized when facing an uncivilized enemy that cares nothing for basic human decency.
    And this deflection has to do with what exactly? This is simply an example of poor choices made by our inept government and nothing to do with have some moral decency not to stoop to the level of a neanderthal. Plenty of bullets to go around for those not handcuffed...

  12. #12
    farmall
    Guest
    "moral decency not to stoop to the level of a neanderthal."

    I pose the argument that we have no moral obligation, at all, of the minutest kind, to Islamonazis. We can be free if we choose it. It does not make us "neanderhals", but is merely reflective of the fact that we do not have a logical reason to value those who exist to destroy us and our culture. They should not matter to us. They are entirely and perfectly toxic, so deal with them accordingly before they get you and yours.

    We don't have any reason to care about their purported "humanity" because they exist to reverse the accomplishments of civilization, destroy secularity, and enslave or kill us.

    "Plenty of bullets to go around for those not handcuffed..."

    That's thinking along the right lines, now lose the mercy for the handcuffed, because when the cuffs come off they will be trying to kill you anyway.
    This is proven relentlessly, and why the way men like Paul Aussaresses fought these vermin in Algeria was the only way to go.

  13. #13
    KettleWhistle
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by frizzer1 View Post
    Oh come on.
    He ordered the shooting of a prisoner..that is the crime.
    He didn't order shooting of a prisoner. He ordered to have him shot at with a rubber bullet. It's as much a crime as shooting him with toy water gun.

    That said, given what these bastards are doing at those riots, the IDF is not only fully justified, but morally obliged to just bring out a machine gun, shoot a warning shot in the air the moment they cross onto restricted area, and definitely start shooting them point blank if they as much as touch any IDF property or other State property, like the fence, army vehicles, etc.

  14. #14
    farmall
    Guest
    Rubber bullets aren't benign, and with proper aim can kill.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...i-doctors.html

    http://www.nature.com/eye/journal/v1.../6700447a.html

    I favor the development of area-denial non-lethal weapons because they can be used to force people where one would have them go and, since they are non-lethal, there is scope for creative, punitive use. They would be good tools in the toolbox.

    Keeping potentially lethal items such as rubber bullets is also smart, because that would have some deterrent effect. The more accurate versions available, the more potential for useful headshots to take out enemy personnel. I would also try out the combination of obscurant smoke and tear gas on rioters, while fitting riot control forces with IR vision gear. The enemy forces would have reduced vision, and any enemy with a gas mask is obviously leadership...

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