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Thread: When is a Jew not a Jew?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    When is a Jew not a Jew?

    When that Jew is a married convert, apparently. With friends like this?......?

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...400900,00.html

    From news article:

    You're not Jewish anymore

    Rabbinical judge rules that woman who converted to Judaism 15 years ago is no longer Jewish because she failed to observe mitzvot; her children also declared non-Jews

    Rivkah Lubitch


    A rabbinical judge ruled recently that a woman who converted to Judaism 15 years ago was no longer Jewish, and that her children, who were born after she had already converted, were also not Jewish.

    Moreover, the judge stated that the woman's marriage was invalid, and that there was therefore no need to grant her a divorce.

    The judge ordered that the woman, her children and even her husband, a Jew by birth, be added to the list of those not allowed to marry by an Orthodox rabbi.

    Rachel (not her real name) converted 15 years ago in a special conversion court headed by Rabbi Haim Druckman. Following the conversion she married Boaz (not his real name), and they have lived in Israel ever since. Their two children were brought up Jewish and Israeli.

    Recently, the couple decided to get a divorce. They separated on good terms, reached a dignified divorce settlement and held a respectable divorce ceremony at the rabbinical court.

    However, during the divorce process, one of the rabbinical judges decided to inquire a little further about Rachel's conversion, and asked her about her mitzvot observance. Displeased with the answer he received, the judge ruled that Rachel's conversion was null, and that subsequently her children were not Jewish too.

    All conversions invalid

    Did the judge forget the Halacha ruling that states that a convert is a Jew in the full sense of the word? Where is the "love for the foreigner" Judaism prides itself in? Where is the compassion and morality?

    The judge in fact ruled that all conversions signed by the special conversion court were invalid, because the court was headed by "heretics" and "criminals". This ruling implies that the thousands of conversions conducted by such courts were unacceptable.
    Rachel and Boaz decided to fight the ruling, for their sake and the sake of their children, but their personal battle also represents tens of thousands of people, who according to the new rules will discover that they are no longer considered Jews and are therefore unable to wed by an Orthodox rabbi or be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

    Rivkah Lubitch is head of the Center for Women's Justice Haifa office. She is a rabbinical pleader with six years experience and has an MA in the history of the Jewish people




    I wonder which mitzvoth she failed at? The one to write your own Torah? The one to not plow your farm in a Jubilee year? See this is the most fundamental problem with Judaism today. The idea that converts have essentially been excluded from Judaism. I think the Rabbinate in Israel should conclusively state whether they do or do not accept any converts under any circumstances at all. And if for the rest of us....? Maybe we need to split off and tell them to go to hell. And people ask me about aliyah? This is why the answer is no.

    And to be honest the Israeli Rabbinate can't do anything about M.O., Masorti or Reform in the Diaspora no matter how much they stamp their feet. Nor can they do anything about the conversions that fully vetted Orthodox Bet Dins perform outside of Israel no matter who's lives they feel the need to destroy. They can fight it out with Chabad over who's God is a more awesome God and who's followers are better Jews. I believe we are in the Jewish communities getting closer and closer to an Orthodox vs. Non Orthodox schism that could go as far as creating what are essentially two different faiths. And if the laws of the State of Israel could be made to jibe with it then I would have no problem at all with separating from Israeli Orthodox branch.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Just a bunch of idiots. My mom's friend from childhood immigrated to Israel back in 1990 with her mother. Her mother was declared Jewish and the women was not - don't know how that happened. She is still not considered Jewish and had to get married at Cyprus. Radiculous. Those rabbis or whoever is running these "racial" establishments should be shot and Israel should definetly re-do all these idiotic policies they have in place.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  3. #3
    takeo
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    I'm not even religious and 75% Jewish, yet I can move to Israel anytime I would like to.

  4. #4
    Djinn
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    However, during the divorce process, one of the rabbinical judges decided to inquire a little further about Rachel's conversion, and asked her about her mitzvot observance. Displeased with the answer he received, the judge ruled that Rachel's conversion was null, and that subsequently her children were not Jewish too.
    I know this is common knowledge for many of you, but for the rest of us, "mitzvot observance" concerns adherence to 613 commandments regarding the responsibilities of Jews. That's no typo... that's six-hundred thirteen commandments.

    You can find all 613 listed here (with supplemental info):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mit...onides.27_list

  5. #5
    KettleWhistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    And if for the rest of us....? Maybe we need to split off and tell them to go to hell. And people ask me about aliyah?
    First, don't convert. Have some pride in your own traditions. Leave ours to us.

    Secondly, converts, or any other gentiles, do not make aliah. Only people of Jewish descent do. All the others immigrate to Israel.

    Lastly, feel free to start your own religion. Call it the Church of Converts. Call it whatever you want. Follow whatever rules you want. Just don't claim that you are Jewish because you are not. Converts are as much Jews as Michael Jackson is white.

  6. #6
    Tigranes
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    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle View Post
    First, don't convert. Have some pride in your own traditions. Leave ours to us.

    Secondly, converts, or any other gentiles, do not make aliah. Only people of Jewish descent do. All the others immigrate to Israel.

    Lastly, feel free to start your own religion. Call it the Church of Converts. Call it whatever you want. Follow whatever rules you want. Just don't claim that you are Jewish because you are not. Converts are as much Jews as Michael Jackson is white.
    Ok, mixed signals! Its seems at first your trying to discourage people from converting like rabbis do but then you go on and say that converts are not real Jews and don't count. Could you explain your position further?

  7. #7
    Djinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by KettleWhistle View Post
    .... Call it whatever you want. Follow whatever rules you want. Just don't claim that you are Jewish because you are not. Converts are as much Jews as Michael Jackson is white.
    Wow... I know converts that observe mitzvot far better than me. I suspect they'd be rather insulted to be told that that I, with my treif-ridden diet, am Jewish, but they are not.

  8. #8
    Vitnir
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    Well, my father is Jewish but it appears to be I'm not Jewish because I popped out the wrong uterus.

  9. #9
    Djinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitnir View Post
    Well, my father is Jewish but it appears to be I'm not Jewish because I popped out the wrong uterus.
    Fine, you're forgiven. Just don't let it happen again.

  10. #10
    KettleWhistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Wow... I know converts that observe mitzvot far better than me. I suspect they'd be rather insulted to be told that that I, with my treif-ridden diet, am Jewish, but they are not.
    And I have pictures of Michael Jackson with bleached skin.

    @Vitnir
    I don't think traditional (not really religious--nowhere does God say that descent has to be along maternal lines, this is just a tradition) view that descent is matrilineal denies your paternal side. Both of my parents are Jews, so I can't really relate to people from mixed backgrounds. Maybe you could give us your input on how you see yourself. I believe you mentioned elsewhere that your mother is Russian. So how do you see yourself. Equally Jewish and Russian? One more than the other? A little bit of both? Neither? I like to try to put myself into other people's shoes, but I really can't imagine what it would've been like if I were of a mixed descent.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    It's KW who's invented a new religion.

    I know you claim to be a closet Karaite and don't believe in any Rabbinic authority so how is it you hold to Rabbinic law on this whereas the Torah is quite clear about converts. Such as Moses' wife.....

  12. #12
    KettleWhistle
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    This got nothing to do with religion. Conversion to Catholicism doesn't make one an Italian. Conversion to
    Russian Orthodoxy doesn't make one a Russian. Ditto with conversion to Judaism.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Living in Israel doesn't make you an Israeli

  14. #14
    Vitnir
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    Quote Originally Posted by Djinn View Post
    Fine, you're forgiven. Just don't let it happen again.
    Thanks dude, from now on I'll assimilate.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Yala's Avatar
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    KW,

    Strictly out of curiousity, since you have said you are secular but are obviously a strong Jewish nationalist, is it important for you, or a priority for you, to marry a Jewish person(if you are not already married)?
    "It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders

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