Positive Aspects of Bahai

[andak01]

Carlos Santana.

[Vitnir]

Equality of the sexes, healthy diet as a commandment, opposition to violence.

The Baha'i Gardens would be an achievement.


By the way, anyone remembers what happened to whomever started the Baha'i religion?

[bararallu]

The problem with the Bahai, or say the Christian correlates like the Unitarians (or to some degree the Jewish started Ethical Culture movement), they try to be everything to everybody but wind up being so "open" and so "progressive" that they are religiously meaningless. Objectively, religion accomplishes a few things, like most cohesive ideologies, it 1. ameliorates within it's member population, 2. it isolates it's member population from without and 3. it sometimes proselytizes.

[Vitnir]

Perhaps this is why I get along with Atheists and Nordic Pagans best. They don't think their religion fits everyone and should be absolute.

[bararallu]

The following 12 principles are frequently listed as a quick summary of the Bahá'àteachings. They are derived from transcripts of speeches given by `Abdu'l-Bahá during his tour of Europe and North America in 1912.[25] The list is not authoritative and a variety of such lists circulate.[13][25][26]

* Unity of God
* Unity of religion
* Unity of mankind
* Gender Equality
* Elimination of all forms of prejudice
* World peace
* Harmony of religion and science
* Independent investigation of truth
* Universal compulsory education
* Universal auxiliary language
* Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics
* Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith

[bararallu]

Perhaps this is why I get along with Atheists and Nordic Pagans best. They don't think their religion fits everyone and should be absolute.

Lest we forget, northern pagans ran the NAZI party, but yeah I get the jist of what you mean: non imposing belief, I'm all for it.

[Vitnir]

No they didn't. You're just making stuff up. Some of the Nazi party's members were Occultists while most were atheists. Hitler may had wanted to bring bag the Old Germanic Religious practice, but I'm not sure actual pagans followed his notion. Majority of Norse-pagan worshipers back at the time were living in North America and a very small portion in Scandinavia.

[andak01]

The only Norse Pagan I ever met was in New York City was a Nazi who celebrated Hitler's birthday. There is some connection, but I don't know to what extent.

[bararallu]

No they didn't. You're just making stuff up.

really?

Some of the Nazi party's members were Occultists while most were atheists.

Yes many where homosexuals and vegetarians as well, this is not to say that all homosexuals and all vegetarians were/are Nazis. Having said that, the ideological push in the 20's and 30's was the intentional severing of Judaism (and by consequence Jewish formulated Christianity) and what was perceived as "Jewish science" (e.g., psychology) from the folk. Odinism or Wotanism etc. were and are a natural option, from their perspective an "authentic" option.

The Occultist aspect is not at all a contradiction to neo-paganism but rather an extension of it, perhaps in an effort to extend the antiquity of Deutsch spirit into the misty past (a romantic Hegelian motif that permeated European nationalist circles at the time, not only in Germany/Austria).

Hitler may had wanted to bring bag the Old Germanic Religious practice, but I'm not sure actual pagans followed his notion.

Stats? In terms of followers and such read this.

Majority of Norse-pagan worshipers back at the time were living in North America and a very small portion in Scandinavia.

Oh, I'm talking about the "Reich" proper. But as you mention it, in the US many of the neopaganist movements are rife with neo-Nazis even as the most prominent neo-Nazis adhere to a replacement theology. Just see the new age thread in this section. I'm certainly not saying that all neo-pagans and new agers are anti-semitic or neo-Nazis' but there is a non trivial correlation that you will find again and again. The more political such a movement is the more anti-Semitic it will be...

BTW it's not just the Germans/Scananavians, far from it.

[KettleWhistle]

Positive aspects of Bahai?

For once they don't defile graves of my ancestors with their houses of worship and routine rituals and they don't prevent me from visiting these.

[Vitnir]

bararallu, you're saying it like it was a plan of Norse/Germanic Pagans specifically, to form the Nazi party and execute the holocaust plan in the name of Odin.

These people weren't Pagan from birth, conversion or true belief, they just decided it suits them because it's closer to their roots, as some sort of protests against Christianity, which they seen as wrong because Jesus, in fact, was a Jew, and they refused to follow Christianity by that reason only, and because of Christianity's Judaistic origin. Yes, just like the Neo-Nazis who hang a Thor's hammer on their neck "because it's Aryan and it's cool".

I met quite a few Pagans, Norse/Germanic ones too. Most of them were druids/hippies, not Nazis. And yes, some crazy people with insane drinking habits on a Viking trip, and I assure you, none of them recognizes Neo-Nazi wannabe-pagans as a part of them and they'll never except them in their community. As a matter of fact, the entire community is rather worried about the lifestyle/religion/belief turning into a fashion for bigots.

The religion itself indeed does not speak of hate towards people just because of their race, as a matter of fact, Norse Mythology is full of "race mixing" (if you consider Elves, Gods, Giants and Ogres as races rather than species).

[bararallu]

bararallu, you're saying it like it was a plan of Norse/Germanic Pagans specifically, to form the Nazi party and execute the holocaust plan in the name of Odin.

No not at all. All I'm saying is just like some of the Asian symbols co-opted by the NAZIs this happened as well. Aside, it's relatively easy for the powerful and politically motivated to infest and, for all intents and purposes, take over nascent cults. It's happened hundreds of times in history, do you believe the neo-pagans are immune to such groups/ambitions?

These people weren't Pagan from birth, conversion or true belief, they just decided it suits them because it's closer to their roots, as some sort of protests against Christianity, which they seen as wrong because Jesus, in fact, was a Jew, and they refused to follow Christianity by that reason only, and because of Christianity's Judaistic origin.

For the [neo]Nazis engaged in neopaganism this is mostly the case, they have a political motivation and suborn the religious elements under the overriding agenda, very much like Jihadists and sympathizers do with Islam.

Yes, just like the Neo-Nazis who hang a Thor's hammer on their neck "because it's Aryan and it's cool".

LOL. I suddenly wish I had gone through with an arm tatoo of EL or Baal with lightning bolts in his fists standing on HAR Tzion But seriously, you do admit it happens, and not all that rarely.

The religion itself indeed does not speak of hate towards people just because of their race, as a matter of fact, Norse Mythology is full of "race mixing" (if you consider Elves, Gods, Giants and Ogres as races rather than species).

Just like Judaism, I'm sure there are plenty of variations on the theme, not a few would have Jews and other undermenshen substituting the fiend folio you mention....

[Vitnir]

But you see, these Neo-Nazi-Neo-Pagans; for them their political ideology came first. Not their belief. Heck, I doubt they believed in any of it, even as a way of life (not a real theological belief, not everyone worship same way they worship in Monotheistic religions).
In other words, they turned to Paganism because of politics. Yes, pretty much like boneheads (neonazis). They can carve their initials in runes on their forhead with a claymore, but they're still boneheads, not Pagans.

As for the comparison with Jihadists, I must disagree. See, the Koran doesn't contradict the Jahada. Quite on the contrary, it says it is the best way to serve god.
The "Poetic Edda" on the other hand, speaks mostly of tales from Norse Mythology and... table manners.

[bararallu]

But you see, these Neo-Nazi-Neo-Pagans; for them their political ideology came first. Not their belief. Heck, I doubt they believed in any of it, even as a way of life

I don't disagree

(not a real theological belief, not everyone worship same way they worship in Monotheistic religions).

yep.

In other words, they turned to Paganism because of politics. Yes, pretty much like boneheads (neonazis). They can carve their initials in runes on their forhead with a claymore, but they're still boneheads, not Pagans.

Here is where we part company; and why a comparison with the Jihadi is not a far cry. Have you ever read Nietzsche? about his particular dissatisfaction w/ the politicization of his ideas, and much of German pre- history and legend, how all of it was incorporated into a political ideology, ultimately into the NAZI platform. It happens all the time- the politically ambitious and, usually radical, elements take over, while the original adherents are either afraid to say anything or just stick their heads into the soil and hope it goes away.

Islam, per my post can in fact offer different levels of observation and even some adaptation, look at the Kurds, look at the drinking partyin Sunnis of west Beirut, look at our own Circassians who serve in the army, look at most of the Sufis. But in general, there was a trend started with the collapse of the Ottoman Empire... Islam as means to an Arab ends (the Shia story being a parallel). In Islam the reigns of authority are very decentralized, not like the Rabanut or the Vatican.

The wealthy and politically motivated co-opted this decentralized system and instilled their brand of Jihadist world domination on the whole of the world. The Wahhabi/Selafi were once a minute minority in the Islamic world. These days even US army chaplans have afiliation with Saudi funded/propogated theology. The new-paganism movement(s) is just very small, but if it gets large enough, sure as alligators swim you will have the same types of elements taking advantage of it. The writing is on the wall.

[Vitnir]

Hey now, I'm NOT one of these Neo-hippies. They can stick their crystals, scented candles and wind chymes up their bottoms, along with the flying saucers.


My point is, how Paganism differs from Jihadism, is rather simple. There's no justification in Norse pagan scripts to slaying innocents. Sure, Islam offers levels of observation (and 2 levels of adaptation - convert to Islam, or be a Jew and pay us ransom). But the bottom line is, there isn't much contradiction to violent act within the Koran. All the Jihadists didn't make up their ideology or twisted the Koran - they just took what they had. And they had their prophet telling them to slay the unbelievers.