Womb of the Universe

[ClydeCoulter]

After re-reading Gensis one evening, a picture came to mind.

In the begining God created the heaven and earth................and the earth she-became chaotic and vacant and darkness was on the surface of the submerged-chaos (i'm loosely quoting from the interlinear).

Now, for discussion, is the universe encased in a shell of water?

And God said, he-shall-become atmosphere (expanse) in-midst-of waters and he-shall-become seperation between waters and-waters.

Image millions of miles of water deep covering the earth (and perhaps enough matter to make all else, either way).

Now in verse 14 of Gen. it says that he created the luminaries in the atmosphere (expanse) that earlier was created by seperating the waters from the waters.

What do you think?

[ClydeCoulter]

Okay, Maybe this sounds boring.....so I'll try to tease out some sort of response:

What is Baptism by Water........what are the meanings of it? Where did it originate, and why?

[ClydeCoulter]

Okay, this is not a trick question. I do not have a secret (that I know of) that I'm trying to see if someone else knows, or something like that.

I am trying to promote conversation about something I find in a book of great importance. If something is in there, then is it not worth considering?

Or perhaps, I have not understood something that is commonly known and no one wants to be the first to tell me?

[bararallu]

After re-reading Gensis one evening, a picture came to mind.

In the begining God created the heaven and earth................and the earth she-became chaotic and vacant and darkness was on the surface of the submerged-chaos (i'm loosely quoting from the interlinear).

Now, for discussion, is the universe encased in a shell of water?

And God said, he-shall-become atmosphere (expanse) in-midst-of waters and he-shall-become seperation between waters and-waters.

Image millions of miles of water deep covering the earth (and perhaps enough matter to make all else, either way).

Now in verse 14 of Gen. it says that he created the luminaries in the atmosphere (expanse) that earlier was created by seperating the waters from the waters.

What do you think?

Do you refer to the Biblical Hebrew or English? because they are, unfortunately radically different methods of accessing a text.

[bennauro]

Do you refer to the Biblical Hebrew or English? because they are, unfortunately radically different methods of accessing a text.

Interesting...
Why are they two different methods?

[ClydeCoulter]

I am using the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (shows Hebrew, Interlinear, and English in 3 different interpretations).

So how would it be interpreted different?

[ClydeCoulter]

Okay, so that's not interesting...........

Are people only interested in conflict, differences, disproving, and hate?
If there were no enemies, would we then look into ourselves and overcome?
Do we find enemies so that we don't have to?

[bararallu]

I think it's very interesting just not in the sense of personal theology... there are many schools of thought in Judaism about "interpreting" the Tanach, there are at least as many academic methodologies. I'm educated in comparative semitics, so for me everything post first Temple is not as interesting as comparing Canaanite, Mesopotamian, and Aramaic sources with Hebrew ones. That is why I mention if you are reading it in Biblical Hebrew, which gives you access to other comparative traditions.

Don't get me wrong, there are many innovations in Hebrew scripture but many of them came post facto and the multitude of redactions to the canon is as obvious as the difference between Aramaic and Hebrew in the latter parts of the Bible. There are people who would take you up on a theological discussion on the board, but if you want to start a discussion post an interesting snippet and then we'll look at the pshat/drash...

I recommend starting w/ Genesis 6:4 personally Actually I forgot you actually did start at the beginning .

How about defining "Chaos"... as you see it?

The caveat I would make: try not to 1. apply Hellenic and other indo-european ideas on a people that did not have any sort of non-physicalist metaphysics, really no metaphysics at all (not to say they did not have an epistemology).

[ClydeCoulter]

Why would you start in Gen 6:4?

Do you see the Nephilim as being a part of what the chaos represents? I have heard of theories where the fallen sons of God were given the earth (prior to man) but rebelled and therefore much of what was here was destroyed in a war. But Gen 6:4 states that the Nephilim came from sons-of-God intermixing with human women, (before and after the flood?).

What I am trying to do, with the question I originally asked, was to generate thoughtful conversation and perhaps proofs (as to some light) from other scriptures that people have read and understood, from a physical standpoint (just what it says, no metaphorical interpretation) as well as why it might have been given to us in the first place to see such words from God.

[ClydeCoulter]

One other question, what version of the Biblical Hebrew are you using?

as I stated, I am using the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (it uses BHS)

[bararallu]

One other question, what version of the Biblical Hebrew are you using?

as I stated, I am using the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (it uses BHS)

There is only one canonical Hebrew Tanach, there are no variations in the text between the various publishers. There are some comparative texts, two most prominent being Onkelos and the Samaritan Humash.

You make a few interesting assumptions about Chaos (not unlike say Milton would make ), not many that a traditional Jew would consider though, certainly not one in biblical times I would think since ethereal, or equivalent, "Chaos" would not be a concept that would be understood. There are other areas that are pregnant within the early texts that point toward an early monolatry rather than monotheism. Further, a good deal of angeology and demonology into 2nd Temple Judaism (and of course later Christianity and Islam consequently) came from Persia...

Like I said above, there is a loose framework in the early books and it certainly can be interpreted as you like, but the authenticity of superimposing a modern understanding on to the people who wrote the original texts cannot be so readily implied without antedating philosophical and theological ideas or relegating to the supernatural, a scenario in which I personally am uninterested.

To understand this:

"veharetz hayta tohu vavohu vekhoshekh al-pnei tehom veruach elohim merakhefet al-pnei hamayyim".

tehom == hamayyim = mayim

that is to say not some dungeons and dragons astral realm, but a physical concept. It is also why the concept of the World ex-nilo doesn't work in ancient Judaism, anyway.

Let me just make some other prepositions that I consider authentic Hebrew Judaism, again in my humble opinion:

1. there is no extra physical concept of soul, it was merely blood, animated by deity. Hence the inequity of it's consumption by human, and by evolution the rest of Koshrut.

2. there was originally no Monotheism, but rather an [edited] monolatry.

3. There is neither biforcated metaphysics, nor a platonic realm of ideals, that is to say no heaven, & no hell (and thus no purgatory). Hebrew Shaol is comparable to Akkadian Arralu, or the very early Greek, realm of shadows, which in the minds of Hebrews actually existed if you dig far enough.

4. There is no resurrection of the dead in the earliest books. Physical death is either final or I guess one can contrive a sort of reincarnation as indeed some Jewish scholars attempted at various points.

5. Corruption, state of "tamei", given Leviticus and other books, has nothing to do with lofty belief but rather a reaction to physical decay.

There's a lot more, but I'm not sure you are interested in this sort of analysis. As I said there are people here that know the Humash backward and forwards. If you post stuff in original Hebrew you will get their take on it, hopefully. My take is in the minority .

[#13]

Verse one seems to be creation from nothingness as far as i can see, the rest would be guided development.

How do you explain your idea of divinely animated blood?

Do you have a source of you idea of Sheol in the mind of ancient Hebrews?

Any more info about the reaction to decomposition?

You make it sound as if Genesis mentions no G-d at all... Not to talk about the later books.

Please do share your insites, for once a conversation with filling.

[#13]

About the separation of the waters I once thought that it may have to do with separating the atmosphere from the water that covered the whole earth untill the waters were gathered (possibly into ice-caps) revealing the dry land.

Shamayim - heavens.
Sham mayim - water is there.
also the letter shin represents Aish - fire, the heavens then being a combination of fire and water...

[#13]

BTW, Shavua Tov!

[Radical_Ryushin]

Anyone with a brain can connect reality with anything out of a book. Take for instance all those people who believe in the bible code and Nostradamus.

The truth is that everyone back in those days couldn't possibly understand what we know today in a very similar fashion that you could see if you visit and try to enlighten someone from an isolated part of the world.