Israeli internal divisions?

[KettleWhistle]

There was an article in Haaretz about self-imposed ghettoization of Russian intelectuals. They view local culture with disdain and patronization. The person in the article, a Russian bookeeper, belittled Iaraeli writers like A.B. Yehushua and Tzruya Shalev.

The fact that they criticize some writers, especially cretinous ones like Yehoshua, is not self-ghetoisation. As usual, Haaretz, an anti-Israel rag that it is, distorts and belittles those who don't agree with the leftists. Surely, the Jewish intellectuals, of whatever origin, should be contributing to Israel, including by criticizing various morons who got into positions of prominence, but have nothing intelligent to say. But that's a little hard when only Russian-language newspapers will publish you, isn't it?

I think it is more or less the same way with Israeli graduates from places like Bar Ilan univ and Haifa univ. who immigrate to the US. There are a few well known institues which are recognized, and the rest simply are not.

Bar Ilan University and Haifa University are accredited and internationally recognized establishments. There is no reason why their graduates would be discriminated in the U.S. or would be forced to eat of dumpsters there. Surely, the academia in the U.S. is deeply underfunded and extremely competitive. But their credentials or country of origin wouldn't stop them.

I really really don't think that olim from the past were better recevied by the country. Maybe the "anti-Zionist" label is also applicable to the olim, who come here less out of ideology, and more out of necessity/opportunism and are much less resistened to obstacles?

The fact that others were treated like cr@p is a disgrace, and no reason to repeat that. This said, when people who never called or considered themselves Russian come to their homeland to escape discrimination, only to be called "Russians" and be discriminated because of it, that's anti-Zionism. When Arabs who hate this country are considered Israelis and Jews who came here to live in the Jewish states are told that they are "Russians" and not real Israelis, that's anti-Zionism. And it shouldn't surprise anyone that Jews from the FSU don't like that and would prefer to do little with people who discriminate against them in this way or would look for fair opportunities elsewhere. I can assure you, most of them didn't come to Israel to become "Russians".

[wellofvow]

Kettlewhistle, you do not understand much about Israel's many religious communities.

And how many Russian immigrants OR returnees have you known WELL? How many Russian doctors have treated you or your family?

Whether Jewish or not, this is another, very different CULTURE. My Russian, non-Jewish cleaning lady thinks most Israelis are barbarians because of the way they dress-she is very conservative. Another Jewish Russian woman I know well aborted her normal fetus because it was another boy-she is very liberal.

Differences exist, and it has little to do with Jewish/non-Jewish or immigrant versus returnee. Me, I am neither, since I "came on aliya". I "went up" to a "higher place". Tomayto, tomahto. This is not a division.

The ultra-Orthodox crazies who throw rocks on Shabbat and vandalize Reform and Conservative synagogues are a tiny (and for the most part very poor) fraction of the population. They are not well-educated, and they do not have any REAL power. They are just barely-tolerated for the most part.

The Russians, on the other hand, are a very large minority in Israel. There are a handful who are extremely wealthy, and another handful who have real power.

The ultra-Orthodox will NEVER be assimilated into the Israeli culture, nor will they SHAPE the Israeli culture. The Russians will do both, eventually.

And by the way, there are some segments of Israeli society and some Israelis who hate Americans. Americans are either extreme Left or extreme Right, all are very wealthy, all are being supported by family back in the States - you wouldn't believe the things I learned about myself that I never knew!

[sharonbn]

The fact that they criticize some writers, especially cretinous ones like Yehoshua, is not self-ghetoisation. As usual, Haaretz, an anti-Israel rag that it is, distorts and belittles those who don't agree with the leftists.

The librarian (not bookeeper, my mistake) in the article came across as someone who has a general negative opinion on all Israeli native culture, and who prefers to be confined to Russian audience.

AB Yehoshua is a highly regarded author. Personal opinion is always going to be just that - personal. I'm sure you can find a few who call Tolstoy cretinous.

Bar Ilan University and Haifa University are accredited and internationally recognized establishments. There is no reason why their graduates would be discriminated in the U.S. or would be forced to eat of dumpsters there. Surely, the academia in the U.S. is deeply underfunded and extremely competitive. But their credentials or country of origin wouldn't stop them.

What I meant to say is that I do not believe that the criteria in Israel for recognition of foriegn academic degree is exceptionally different than what is common in the western world, but I have little knowledge in the area so I could be wrong.

The fact that others were treated like cr@p is a disgrace, and no reason to repeat that. This said, when people who never called or considered themselves Russian come to their homeland to escape discrimination, only to be called "Russians" and be discriminated because of it, that's anti-Zionism. When Arabs who hate this country are considered Israelis and Jews who came here to live in the Jewish states are told that they are "Russians" and not real Israelis, that's anti-Zionism. And it shouldn't surprise anyone that Jews from the FSU don't like that and would prefer to do little with people who discriminate against them in this way or would look for fair opportunities elsewhere. I can assure you, most of them didn't come to Israel to become "Russians".

Are you telling me that they came here because they are avid Zionists?

[sharonbn]

I don't understand why the ultra-orthadox do not serve in the army. From what little i know, i understand that they dont participate fully in the running of the state as they see todays Israel as being 'man-made', when this should really be the job of the messiah. But surely in times of severe crisis they dont want to see Israel defeated?

Do these communities defend themselves if under attack? Or if they don't join the IDF do they support them at least?

The ultra-orthadox don't serve in the army for two reasons:

1) Although the army provides kosher food, the ultra-orthodox require the stamp of approval of their own kosher institutions. They have lots of other special needs and requirements that the army does not provide. The ultra-orthodox also view the army as a place of promiscuity where boys and girls get mixed up all too often and too close.

2) a Yeshiva student, especially if he is a prodigy ("talmid khakham") is suppsed to learn torah every day, all day. Service in the army is regarded as a distraction from this destiny. It goes so far that Yeshiva students usually send their wives to work and provide income while they sit and learn Torah all day.

[Yala]

That would make more than half of the Israeli Jews non Zionists

From your link:

Poll for 40-year anniversary of capital's unification shows 58 of Israeli Jews willing to make concessions in Jerusalem in exchange for peace with Palestinians

Show me one thing in that article that states that half of Israeli Jews want to make Israel a binational state or take away Israel's Jewish identity!! That poll is all about dividing Jerusalem and other aspects of Jerusalem in particular, not Israel.. This is not the first time you posted faulty polls or polls having nothing to do with the argument. I remember your last internet poll you posted which claimed to show the overwhelming majority (85-90%) of Israelis want to give back the Golan, lol.

For the record I would also support giving away a few Arab areas of Jerusalem along with their inhabitants to Jordan or a trustworthy regime or entity (ie not Fatah or Hamas).

[KettleWhistle]

Kettlewhistle, you do not understand much about Israel's many religious communities.

And how many Russian immigrants OR returnees have you known WELL? How many Russian doctors have treated you or your family?

Plenty of both. Also speak the language, and know the cultures. Both the Jewish East-European culture (not much difference there between FSU and the rest of Eastern Block) and the Russian culture. Yes, I know it is very individualistic in an anti-communal sort of way.

[KettleWhistle]

The librarian (not bookeeper, my mistake) in the article came across as someone who has a general negative opinion on all Israeli native culture, and who prefers to be confined to Russian audience.

So? If someone shuns you and disrespects you every step of the way, do you have a positive opinion about them? Because that was kinda my point. Many Jews from the FSU do have a negative opinion of the Israeli culture, but for a good reason. Quite a few Israelis would also agree that the Israeli culture has very little to offer in just too many ways, and at the same time it resists to do better.

AB Yehoshua is a highly regarded author. Personal opinion is always going to be just that - personal. I'm sure you can find a few who call Tolstoy cretinous.

Which Tolstoy? There were three. Stephen King is also a highly regarded author. I don't think disliking his books equals to dislike of the American culture.

What I meant to say is that I do not believe that the criteria in Israel for recognition of foriegn academic degree is exceptionally different than what is common in the western world, but I have little knowledge in the area so I could be wrong.

If you are talking about alia and absorption of about a million people, it should only be expected that the Israeli ministry of education, other ministries will make some effort to evaluate people's education and professional backgrounds. BTW, most of E. European universities are accredited.

Are you telling me that they came here because they are avid Zionists?

I don't know what you mean by "avid Zionists", but for most Jews it was one of the major motivators to be able to live in their own country amongst their own people.

[Mercury]

There was an article in Haaretz about self-imposed ghettoization of Russian intelectuals. They view local culture with disdain and patronization. The person in the article, a Russian bookeeper, belittled Iaraeli writers like A.B. Yehushua and Tzruya Shalev.

AB Yehoshua is a highly regarded author.

Speaking of patronizing. A.B. Yehushua once said that jews from western countries should stop sending money to Israel and instead use it to pay for hebrew lessons. "Because we won't speak to you in broken english or french."

AB Yehoshua is a highly regarded author. I'm sure you can find a few who call Tolstoy cretinous.

It would indeed be remarkable if during its short and stormy history, Israel produced writers who are widely known outside their home country (like cretinous Tolstoy, for instance). So I understand why people may want to cling to the best they have (let's not discuss whether ABY is really the best they have). However, blaming the newcomers for not sharing the admiration for local favourites is beyond cute parochial patriotism.

[Yala]

Speaking of patronizing. A.B. Yehushua once said that jews from western countries should stop sending money to Israel and instead use it to pay for hebrew lessons. "Because we won't speak to you in broken english or french."

Yes and this is the same A.B. Yehoshua who tried to put down and dismiss diaspora Jews and Judaism by saying:

"The Future of Jewish people rests on Israeli identity alone and not on Judaism"

and

"Israeli identity is superior in importance to Judaism"

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...246476,00.html

Maybe this genius should instead wonder how much broken hebrew we have to listen to in every single electronic or cell phone store in the United States. I think there are more Israeli yordim in Manhattan than in Tel Aviv. So much for their love of "Israeli identity." If that was so wonderful, and not Judaism or any form of Jewish pride, and would be enough to keep Israelis in Israel then he might have a point. The statistics state the opposite, and in fact there are more yordim than people making aliyah.


The funniest part of this whole argument is that I read Yehoshua's Woman in Jerusalem and the main (dead) character is an immigrant from Russia/former USSR who was very educated back in the old country yet had to work as a floor washer in a bakery in Israel. Somehow I think Yehoshua would agree a lot more with Kettle than with his admirer, SharonB.

It would indeed be remarkable if during its short and stormy history, Israel produced writers who are widely known outside their home country

Don't worry, every single anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist Israeli is very well known throughout the world like Shulamit Aloni, Uri Avnery, Ilan Pappe, etc.

[Womble]

It would indeed be remarkable if during its short and stormy history, Israel produced writers who are widely known outside their home country (like cretinous Tolstoy, for instance).

There's plenty, actually. I hereby submit:

Shmuel Yosef Agnon (Nobel Prize in literature).

Amos Oz (a Goethe Prize laureate).

David Grossman

Ephraim Kishon

Hanoch Levin

Oh and for the record, I absolutely loathe A.B. Yehoshua and Amos Oz. They are not bad writers, quite the contrary, but they represent the kind of literature that I am strongly allergic to.

The problem is that most of the Russian immigrants in Israel who criticize the Israeli literature usually haven't read any of it. Most of them don't have the Hebrew knowledge to read Agnon or Yehoshua, nor do they feel the need to. They simply display an attitude of cultural superiority that they carry over from the former USSR, where the urban Jews were arguably the main agents of the Russian-Soviet culture, in which they took much pride.

The whole "self-ghettoization" thing is constantly debated in Israel- but it is debated in the same primitive way as in this thread- you have a native-born Israeli arguing that the "Russians" keep to themselves because they are a bunch of snobs, and a fresh Russian-Jewish immigrant who claims that they are "forced" to do so by the Israelis who are themselves a bunch of snobs. The funny thing here is that they are both largely correct: the snobs of the Ashkenazi Tzabar establishment, raised on the idea of their birthright superiority over the Diaspora Jews, ran into the roughly equal number of snobs from the Soviet Jewish intelligentsia, raised on the idea of superiority of the Russian culture and language. Add the usual immigration issues- and hilarity ensues.

Many of the things that the Israelis interprete as "ghettoization" are really a matter of simple convenience. Take me, for example. I live in Israel for over eleven years now, but my newspaper of choice is the Russian-language Vesty. Some people keep asking me why, if my Hebrew is so good that I write fiction in it, I still read Russian newspapers. The answer is twofold: first, it saves time. I read faster in Russian, because I grew up reading left-to-right, and there's not much I can do about that. Second, I am yet to find a Hebrew newspaper which would regularly cover certain subjects which interest me (Mark Chagall, for example), and which would not have a heavy leftist bent like the "intellectual" Haaretz. The same with food; I don't buy the Russian black bread because I want ghettoization, I buy it because I like the taste. I see increasing numbers of Israelis shopping in the Russian delicacy stores- are they also "ghettoization" victims? Finally, some people are simply too old to learn new tricks, and especially a new language. I hate the unprofessional, sub-quality Russian television shows- but can I blame my 60 year old aunt for not watching Channel 10 in Hebrew instead? And generally speaking, since when was it in any way strange or unusual for people of similar background, interests and social strata to stick together?

On the other hand, the Russian immigrants themselves often tend to "find" discrimination and disrespect where there is none. They also often tend to act as if Israel owes them the world and its mother just for bothering to grace this backwards provincial country with their enlightened presence. There are some very real problems, to be sure, but nowhere as grave as some try to portray them. There's a lot of good professionals going unemployed- but that's because the market is limited and some professions are hugely overrepresented among the aliyah. I see plenty of unemployed Israeli akademaim guarding malls and supermarkets, too, while a Russian dumbo who once used to be my roommate (and who couldn't translate his own college textbooks from Hebrew without me helping) works in a high-tech company. Add the language issue; even the best professional cannot begin working according to his profession if he cannot adequately communicate with his collegues. Add the fact that in a small country like Israel, too much depends on personal connections, which an immigrant cannot possibly have. What compounds the problem is that the Russian immigrants, who were overwhelmingly middle class in the country of oigin, inevitably find themselves on arrival in a much lower social strata, and shape their general opinion on the Israelis on the basis of their experience with the least educated, least cultured, worst-mannered segment of the Israeli population.

[Yala]

There's plenty, actually. I hereby submit:

Shmuel Yosef Agnon (Nobel Prize in literature).

Amos Oz (a Goethe Prize laureate).

David Grossman

Ephraim Kishon

Hanoch Levin

Widely known outside of Israel? I don't think so. Maybe Amos Oz and Michael Oren (a historian) and few others.

[Womble]

Widely known outside of Israel? I don't think so. Maybe Amos Oz and Michael Oren (a historian) and few others.

Ephraim Kishon is HUGELY popular abroad, especially In Germany, where he is pretty much a household name.

David Grossman is widely known, and as far as I know, taught in a number of Swiss schools.

Hanoch Levin is most certainly well known to the theatre fans outside of Israel.

[Gilgamesh]

Ephraim Kishon is HUGELY popular abroad, especially In Germany, where he is pretty much a household name.

David Grossman is widely known, and as far as I know, taught in a number of Swiss schools.

Hanoch Levin is most certainly well known to the theatre fans outside of Israel.

I hate Hanoch Levin. But I must add here, Uri Zvi Greenberg and Moshe Shamir. Two giants of Hebrew litrature. Biyalick is also gaining recognition outside of Israel.

[sharonbn]

So? If someone shuns you and disrespects you every step of the way, do you have a positive opinion about them? Because that was kinda my point. Many Jews from the FSU do have a negative opinion of the Israeli culture, but for a good reason. Quite a few Israelis would also agree that the Israeli culture has very little to offer in just too many ways, and at the same time it resists to do better.

We are arguing about the chicken abd the egg. I think we agree that the Jews from Russian origin were poorly integrated into Israeli native society, regardless of whose fault is it.

I don't know what you mean by "avid Zionists", but for most Jews it was one of the major motivators to be able to live in their own country amongst their own people.

Not according to my knowledge. In the last decade or so, most Jews who came from Russia came because they sought better life quality here (same reason people come to America), and the ones that don't find it, leave.

[Womble]

We are arguing about the chicken abd the egg. I think we agree that the Jews from Russian origin were poorly integrated into Israeli native society, regardless of whose fault is it.

I'd say they are integrated pretty well, all things considered, they are simply integrated differently. The "native" Israelis are simply not accustomed to an aliyah that has the power to integrate on its own terms and to force some aspects of the host culture it to adjust to them rather than slavishly melt into it.

Not according to my knowledge. In the last decade or so, most Jews who came from Russia came because they sought better life quality here (same reason people come to America), and the ones that don't find it, leave.

In that case, an order of magnitude more people would have been leaving.

You are looking at the reasons for aliyah, which are many and varied. What you should be examining, though, is the reasons for them staying.