No.Originally Posted by andak01
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"It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders
Strict literal adherence of the law would require the unanimous consent of 7 judges, or 70, depending. Only the eyewitness testimony of at least two people of impeccable credentials would be acceptable.
Just a small irrelevant fact: ancient stoning, as had taken place throughout the Middle East, inclusive of the whole Levant, was tossing someone off a high stone (and not throwing some rocks at them).. and if they didn't die, then hoist them up and toss them off again. The recent spate of Hamas throwing Fatah members (and vice versa) from top floors of multi storied buildings, w/o a bungee cord, is actually far more in line with "proper" stoning
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Change that to currently Iran:
Mokarrameh Ebrahimi, 43 is to executed by stoning in the city of Takistan in a public square, in front of a crowd of people on Thursday. She was convicted and sentenced to die for having a child out of wedlock, and committing adultery 11 years ago. The father of the child, who is unidentified, is also to be stoned to death with her.
Ebrahimi has spent the last 11 years in Choubin prison in Ghazvin, and is very distressed, according to Meydaan, the official site of the "Stop Stoning Forever Campaign." An informed source has commented that "the pits are dug and prepared in Behesht Zahra cemetery to implement the sentence." The Judge of Branch 1 will be the first to throw a stone, and the public has been invited to join in the stoning.
Although there had been no witnesses to the crime of adultery, or having a child out of wedlock, the sentence is being based on the judge's "knowledge." There have been numerous rumors about her past, but none could actually be proved. Iran's Islamic Penal code allows stoning as the method of execution for adultery.
Amnesty International is appealing against the scheduled stonings, to the Head of the Judiciary, Ayatollah Shahroudi. Amnesty International is asking that the execution by stoning of the two be stopped and that their sentences be commuted to life imprisonment. They are also asking that all executions by stoning be abolished, according to their public statement...
http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...stoned_in.html
Her stoning was suspended after this was reported, but this still proves that stoning is very much still on their agenda...
"It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders
"Capital punishment in Iran is legal, and can be executed in a number of ways, one of which has included stoning in the past. The Iranian judiciary has officially placed a moratorium on stoning, although the punishment remains on the books." [Source & I have verified this with a university lecturer]
I have heard of stoning taking place by Islamic courts in some town. This type of punishment remains on the books because it has always been on THE BOOKS.
It's very easy to see the true nature of Islam if one really opens their eyes and ears. One of my friends (my age) was executed for challenging the authority of Islam and his trial was no longer than five minutes - pretty much the way Mohammed ordered some executions (as documented in the hadiths)
My friend's parents dropped Islam shortly after they did a research into their religion and found that for over 40 years of following in Islam they had no idea about the original and authentic teachings of Islam.
As one of my favourite researches, Bahram Moshiri, remarked:
"Islam and Iranian culture are like water and oil...You just can't mix them"
Islam requires 4, also with impeccable credentials, and they never get them. By reason, they never should. Still you hear of people sentenced to stoning (although almost never anymore actually stoned due to outside pressure). The last Sharia stoning I hear of was in Iran some time ago. There is no way they had 4 witnesses to insertion in an adultry case. If they did, then they weren't impeccable.
Strict adherrence to either the Halachic law or the Sharia would make stoning impossible unless someone wants to walk into the synogogue and perform adulterous sex in front of the rabbis. In that case, in a theocracy, that amounts to an act of treason. Those people would be saying that moral law has no hold whatsoever.
Though I regret your horrible experiences, I've met many Iranians that are more than happy to be Muslim. They are wonderful people and they always treated me like a brother. I don't as a rule make statements about Shiism out of deference to people who know it much better than I and because I've seen what the ignorant have done in commenting on my own branch of Islam.
Sharia stoning is an instance where the man suffers more than the woman. He is buried up to his waist, which immobilizes him and causes the maximum amount of damage. The woman is buried to the neck, meaning that all injuries are head injuries and death or unconciousness will come more quickly. In practice, in Iran (almost exclusively), it has been almost always women punished, and without the required witnesses. Practicing stoning in a kangaroo court is only a degree away from practicing hanging in a kangaroo court. It amounts to political terrorism. It was that way in Iran and in Afghanistan under the Taliban.The recent spate of Hamas throwing Fatah members (and vice versa) from top floors of multi storied buildings, w/o a bungee cord, is actually far more in line with "proper" stoning
Show my a country where the national law is Halachic law and the government is made up of rabbis! When there were Papal states run by Canon law, there were public disembowlings and burnings at the stake. When the preachers ran Puritan colonies, you had burnings at the stake. Those types of punishments are a common threat where states are run by religious zealots, Muslim or not.
I very much resent your comparison of Rabbinic Law and lehavdil the church. As far as I am concerned, the church is as much an impostor as islam in stealing Judaism away from the Jews and perverting it into their respective religions.
Jews have lived under the rule of Halacha and Sanhedrin and their behaviour concerning capital punishment was in action what you claim would be the idealistic version of Islam, which is corrupt.
Given the track record of Muslims and Christians over the centuries regarding the Jews, I won't blame you. What you said wouldn't have offended me as a Christian and it doesn't offend me as a Muslim. You're after all reacting to real events.
I agree that the practice of Sharia is corrupt, terribly corrupt. And it isn't my purpose to attack Jewish practice (which doesn't even exist today anyway). On top of that, I don't know how far back you'd have to go to get to a Jewish theocracy. If the New Testament is to be believed, Jesus encountered a stoning. And if the Old Testament is to be believed, then there were stonings at that time.Jews have lived under the rule of Halacha and Sanhedrin and their behaviour concerning capital punishment was in action what you claim would be the idealistic version of Islam, which is corrupt.
The point I'm making is, outside of a few Muslim countries, there are no examples of large theocratic states will large populations. When there were, in Europe, in South America with the Incas and Mayans, and long, long ago with the Israelites, there were draconian punishments handed down. To what degree that was related to core religious values and to what degree corruption is up for discussion.
The fact remains that breeches in morality in a state governed by moral rules is a mortal danger to the power of the state. Our own current governments are based on a legal justice system Any action that endangers the rule of law is a mortal danger to this system. And that, I think, is why some people are willing to forgo our own justice system to go after those who threaten it. In that case, they are willing extrajudiciously to torture, to assassinate and to spy to protect the rule of law.
It doesn't exist b/c we don't want it. Period.
From the Romans.On top of that, I don't know how far back you'd have to go to get to a Jewish theocracy. If the New Testament is to be believed, Jesus encountered a stoning.
"It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders
Jews had capital punishment late into the rein of Herod, well before the Romans had direct control over every day affairs. Herod in fact slaughtered a good deal of people, not the least of which his own family, using laws on the books. Not every execution was a stoning, and none where slow deaths like the Roman and Greek style of crucifixion, by which many a Jew and Samaritan had perished. I'm not sure what happened during Bar Khokba's rein... it would be interesting to find out.
As I've mentioned many times in other threads, I do make a clear distinction between the true Islam itself and Muslims. I have also many wonderful Muslim (namely) friends and relatives, and I'd also treat you like a brother.
The fact that I debate on Islam (only in certain places and times), doesn't mean that I resent Muslims.
Most Iranian Muslims are more than happy to be Muslims because of some of the following reasons:
- They have a very shallow knowledge of Islam
- They know about dark spots of Islam, but they consciously refuse to follow them
- They know very little about how Islam was forced on Iranians by Mohammed's commanders like Omar bin Khattab (Most Iranians know very little about their ancient history)
- They don't that the Arabs (of the time) murdered our people and raped our women when they brought the message of Islam.
- They don't know that for thousands of years Iranians had been worshipping one God (Ahura Mazda) and the Arabs of the time forced us to change it for Allah.
- They have never fallen victim of Islam
No decent human being would endorse barbaric acts such as stoning.
Let's not mix Jews in general with Halacha observant Jews and times when Halacha was observed on a national scale.
According to all Halachic sources from ancient times, capital punishment was always meant to avoid by all means. I doubt Yeshu was witnessing a halachic execution, if they were Jewish at all, if it really happened at all, since Xtian scriptures have more significant variations in the meaning of the text then could be counted... May be it was just another parable...
Unlike Xtians, Jewish source show consistency and thus have higher credibility, in addition to the fact that vast numbers of Jews have lived amongst Arabs and Muslims and have not adopted violent practices as can be seen from the present Mizrachi population...
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