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Thread: 50 Responses to criticisms of Israel

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    50 Responses to criticisms of Israel

    The contents are too long to post here:

    http://www.beyondimages.info/area7.html

  2. #2
    Derry
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    I can't post new threads yet.

    Hi again from Ireland, I've just returned for a wonderful vacation in Spain. Anyway, in today's Irish Independent (biggest selling national daily) there is an excellent letter from a reader, obviously responding to a previous letter. I'm sure you'll approve. Hopefully this will put many people in my country straight on a few matters.

    The link is:

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/le...e-1038626.html

    The letter reads:

    Tuesday July 17 2007

    SEAN Macken, with regard to your letter (July 10), where you attempted to point to the history of finding out the cause for Muslim rage - to do this we should therefore start at the beginning of the aforementioned rage to give readers a better understanding of why there is such rage and justify this rage.


    In 624 AD, it was Muslim anger that raided and pillaged Arab merchants from the safe haven of Medina.

    It was Muslim anger that conquered Mecca in 630 AD and the rest of the Arab Peninsula two years later.

    It was Muslim rage in 636 AD that invaded and occupied Judea/Israel and the Jews, (renamed Palestine by the Roman Emperor Hadrian in 134 AD so to wipe off the nation and the name Israel from the map of the world). It was Muslim anger that invaded and occupied Syria, Iraq (yes Iraq!), Egypt and the whole of North Africa, Persia and part of Central Asia. It was still this Muslim rage that invaded and occupied Spain, Portugal, Sicily and part of France between the 8th and 15th Century. Lest we forget, the USA was not yet born, Western Imperialism was not yet invented, and Israel's rebirth was just thought of in prayer.

    Today, Muslim rage continues and targets the West, the East and the South, Buddhists, Indus and Animists.

    Could it not be, Mr Macken, they are facing the same old Muslim rage?

    In reference to your statement on the "grandfathers of present day Palestinians" (Please, can I be so bold to remind you that Palestinian was a term first invented in the 1930's) and that would have bewildered those "Palestinian grandfathers" as a large number were economic migrants from Egypt, Syria Transjordan, and Lebanon, who arrived to Occupied Judea/Israel (Palestine) to enjoy the economic development of a desolate land revived by Jewish/Israelite returnees.

    The analogy to an Israeli state in Connemara is quite frankly, something that I can only describe as bizarre. If anything, both countries share similar misfortunes of occupation, Ireland 800 years, Israel 2000 years. In the Irish Famine in 1845-51, millions died and emigrated, in 134 AD the Romans ended the 1000-year-old Israel/Judea Kingdom, massacred the Jews and exiled millions.

    Eire, in the last 15 years, has seen the return of some of those great, great Irish grandchildren of the famine emigrants and in the last 150 years, the exiled Jews/Israelites began the return to their ancient homeland.

    Mr Macken, do you not think it is about time Israel, like Ireland, should be free of occupation and rage or do you prefer to conveniently extract substances of history and mislead readers into thinking that this Muslim rage is justified? For when dealing and debating such intricacies, the whole of the equation needs to be considered and this I feel, was not done in your letter and I'm afraid, read subjectively.

    JOHN MCBRIDE

    Relaghbeg,

    Co Cavan

  3. #3
    Illuminatus
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    # 32. “Israel is a 'root cause' of Muslim hatred of the West”

    Very not so -- It's the USA's fault.

    In the September, 1990 issue of The Atlantic Monthly - Dr. Bernard Lewis wrote a classic called: 'The Roots of Muslim Rage'

    http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/199009/muslim-rage

    -It's required reading for West Point officers.

    If you are not a subscriber, the entire piece is reprinted here:

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...ld/wh0067.html

    After a thousand years of having languished under the Romans, The Holy Roman, the Ottoman and finally, British empires, someone (the Jews) finally built a dynamic successful society in what they call "Palestine".

    One might expect modern Palestinians to be most teed-off at their leaders, not one of whom it seems, ever had a similar vision for the region, and who instead now rail at the world in perpetual victimhood about their "stolen" birthright, and who would as obviously destroy it, supposedly for its acheivement, without ever a mere thought as to how to ever build anything.

    Everyone is trying to explain Muslim rage at the West, and the US. Few, if any, recognize that these Muslims live in totalitarian nations with strictly controlled education, news, and political speech. The question is not why Muslims are mad at us, but rather why the governments of these nations have portrayed us to their subjects in such a way as to make them mad at us.
    Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and a form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood.

    And since the United States is the legitimate heir of the former European Superpower civilization and the recognized and unchallenged leader of the West, the United States has inherited the resulting grievances and become the focus for the pent-up hate and anger.
    The Atlantic - Lewis

    ^_^

  4. #4
    RoofRabbit
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illuminatus View Post
    Very not so -- It's the USA's fault.
    I must agree, the US government is so caught up in lying to it's people, I have no idea why we are anywheres any more. I'll never side with the Muslims against Israel, but in the case of this country where we fight and back-stab the same ones we sell arms to, it's a different story. Back room policies seem to completely rule this country and not what is said to the public. Who can blame the Muslims for hating us on that reasoning.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Aliyah1995's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    The contents are too long to post here:

    http://www.beyondimages.info/area7.html
    Thanks Medio....This is a VERY valuable link....

  6. #6
    Senior Member dayag's Avatar
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    Indian Muslim Leaders Praise Israel During Official Visit

    There was an interesting story at Arutz Sheva about a delgation of Indian Muslim leaders visiting Israel. The article states:

    In a first-of-its-kind visit, a delegation of Indian Muslim leaders is currently on an extensive tour of Israel. The group's leader repeatedly expressed his pleasure at having his preconceptions about Israel overturned. The Muslim leaders' visit to Sderot on Monday included a first-hand lesson on Palestinian Authority rocket attacks.

    Maulana Jamil Ilyasi, president of the All India Organisation of Imams and Mosques, is heading the Indian delegation. His group represents about 500,000 imams and 200 million Indian Muslims, 40% of the global Muslim population.

    I hope more visits like this can be arranged with Muslim leaders from various parts of the world.

    The rest of the story can be seen at http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123448
    "If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither, let my tongue cleave to my palate if I do not remember you, if I do not set Jerusalem above my highest joy." (Ps. 137: 5-7)"

    "Any generation in which the Temple is not built, it is as if it had been destroyed in their times" (Yerushalmi, Yoma 1a).

  7. #7
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    I guess the Wahhabi programing hasn't hit India, what a wonderful thing to hear. Wonder how long it will last...

  8. #8
    andak01
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    Muslim Rage?

    Though we all get painted with the rage brush, most Muslims don't live in a rage. The cartoon riots, aweful while they lasted are over. The response to the pope's comments was a meeting of reconciliation. We live with ten times worse than the cartoons on western radio and TV everyday, commentators like Michael Savage calling for our extermination with call-ins high fiving him. Yet, there are no riots over that. Rage doesn't drive movements that last for a millenium and a half. This sort of simplification of what Muslims are is generating hatred and resentment on both sides.

  9. #9
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    Though we all get painted with the rage brush, most Muslims don't live in a rage.
    Andak, this only begs the question, to the Jews and Israelis here; why there inst any Jewish Rage to note... why there aren't Jewish town book burnings, impromptu public hangings, Rabbinical decisions to condemn people to death (and indeed, put a price on their head), no storming of embassies, no street celebrations when Muslims die as a consequence of War... and so on. Every time this comes up, keep it in mind.. it's not how much of it exists, but that it exists at all.

  10. #10
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu View Post
    Andak, this only begs the question, to the Jews and Israelis here; why there inst any Jewish Rage to note...
    When it happens, it isn't identified that way, and because of the FAR smaller number of Jews than Muslims, there aren't as many examples to point to. For example, a couple of years back, when a Florida man was caught trying to blow up mosques, did the story stay in the news? Was he referred to as a terrorist? The charge? Conspiracy to violate civil rights! Meanwhile, Jose Padilla gets 5 years behind bars before even having evidence presented for his arrest.

    http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/2...da.explosives/

    http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/20/Ta...tence__1.shtml

    Irv Ruben and Earl Krugel plotted to blow up a US Representative's office and a mosque. The charge was conspiracy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irv_Rubin

    Kahane Chai is listed as a terrorist organization by the US Department of State.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_movement

    So there is Jewish rage, just not as many examples of it or as many Jews.

  11. #11
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    LOL. You want to compare KACH with something like AQ or even Hamas/Moslem Brotherhood, or the Iranian Mullahs? You are truly diluted Andak.

    The founder of Kach, Kahane is an angel compared to likes of Yassin and Komenei and Bin Laden [and the dozens of Imams in highest positions calling for our blood]. You have two or three incidents... and one movement that was banned because the US wanted to be "even haded" a movement that has not perpetrated mass killing, or even killing outside the handful of deranged individuals. Statistically speaking Jews do not have neither the incitement nor the "rage" espoused and carried out by Muslims daily... do you want me to post a list of terrorism perpetrated by enraged Muslims? That list may well crash the server that Israel forum currently is hosted on... It will show quite readily that, statistically, realistically, you are comparing water melons and chick peas.

  12. #12
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by bararallu View Post
    LOL. You want to compare KACH with something like AQ or even Hamas/Moslem Brotherhood, or the Iranian Mullahs? You are truly diluted Andak.
    I didn't. You said there isn't ANY Jewish rage to note. I said there is. That's as far as I went.

    Statistically speaking Jews do not have neither the incitement nor the "rage" espoused and carried out by Muslims daily... do you want me to post a list of terrorism perpetrated by enraged Muslims?
    How many Jewish countries (yes I know there's only one) are in the middle of a civil war? Have been invaded? Have economic sanctions against them? Have 50% + unemployment? Have had their infrastructure destroyed and are rebuilding their police force, electric grid, water supply? Have had tons of cluster bombs dropped in their fields for their children and their farmers to come across? Have 150,000 foreign troops on their soil?

    That list may well crash the server that Israel forum currently is hosted on... It will show quite readily that, statistically, realistically, you are comparing water melons and chick peas.
    The "colateral damage" method of killing civilians will never register on that list no matter how many die. The rendition method of torturing doesn't show on that list. I would suggest that the comparison may, though ending unfavorably for the Arabs, not be as freakishly one-sided as you believe or as you would have us believe.

    Secondly, I would suggest that Muslims cannot be part of the solution if we are all identified as the problem.

  13. #13
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    I didn't. You said there isn't ANY Jewish rage to note. I said there is. That's as far as I went.
    Yes thats true... lets flush out the details then shall we?

    How many Jewish countries (yes I know there's only one) are in the middle of a civil war? Have been invaded? Have economic sanctions against them? Have 50% + unemployment? Have had their infrastructure destroyed and are rebuilding their police force, electric grid, water supply? Have had tons of cluster bombs dropped in their fields for their children and their farmers to come across? Have 150,000 foreign troops on their soil?
    Indeed just one... your co-religionists would preclude anymore. But all of these things have happened to us, sans civil war, at the attempt of wiping us off the map. I also don't appreciate you implying that this is only about Iraq or indeed that Israel has anything to do with the current situation in either Iraq or really Afghanistan either. I did not imply or certainly say that I wanted to compare Europeans or Americans and Muslims just the latter and Jews, Israeli or not.

    The "colateral damage" method of killing civilians will never register on that list no matter how many die.
    And neither does the Geneva Convention recognize un-uniformed combatants as anything but spies who assume all responsibilities for all actions taken against them and their facilitators. Something the Press generally disregards and even government, like Israel do not fully enforce. All armed non uniformed Palestinians can be shot on site... and not be considered collateral damage of any sort merely abiding conventions that are established between civilized combatants. We've already established that the traditional Arabist nature of combat is non abiding with the Geneva Convention and that is only reason I mention it in retort to your "collateral damage" diversion.

    The rendition method of torturing doesn't show on that list.
    Does that include all current Prison systems in the Middle East or only those run by non Muslims in part or whole?

    I would suggest that the comparison may, though ending unfavorably for the Arabs, not be as freakishly one-sided as you believe or as you would have us believe.
    Lets test it... lets attempt a statistical variance... Here are some of the criteria I propose:

    0. Proportion when Muslims have "raged" in response to criticism of their religion and nationalities compared to Jews.

    1a. Proportion of total terrorists acts per Muslim/Jewish capita 1b. Arab-Muslim/Jewish capita (I give you Jewish over Israeli to better your odds) ; in say the last 10 years, 20 years and 50 years.

    2a. Proportion of instance of publicized agitative propaganda, calling Jews/Muslim any variable sub human, whether Quranic/Tanach based or not; 2b. calling for the destruction of Muslim/Jewish polities... vis-a-vis Total Jewish Organizational/Israeli government and Muslim Organizational/Muslim run government statements about the other.

    3. Proportion of total deaths by terrorism acts per Muslim/Jewish capita; in the last 10 years, 20 years and 50 years.

    4. Proportion of destroyed or appropriated property, including houses of worship, by Muslim-Arab vs Israeli actions.

    5. Proportion of statements to Muslim country votes in the UN GA calling for sanction and condemnation of Arab vs Israeli actions or mere sovereign existence.

    The statistical variance will not take total numbers as meaningful factors (even as they are in real life (or death really)) but rather render a percentage. I'm thinking you're looking at something like high 90 percentile to near nothing (to note) on the Jewish side of a situation here Andak. "ending unfavorably for the Arabs" is quite a euphemism... I welcome you to compile and do the exercise, these statistics are not hard to gather, since there are Islamic, Arab Nationalist, Western and Israeli Leftist, and Nazi groups that will more than be happy to lend you a hand. We have our sources as well. Do you want to undertake this? How about just the first category I propose which started this exchange?

    Secondly, I would suggest that Muslims cannot be part of the solution if we are all identified as the problem.
    Nothing to disagree there about, and my record here happens to restate than on a regular basis.
    Last edited by bararallu; 08-22-2007 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Andak01:

    Though we all get painted with the rage brush, most Muslims don't live in a rage. The cartoon riots, aweful while they lasted are over.

    Billion Muslims live in rage because of Michael Savage? Funny. I as a JEW should be raged out of my mind given what those Muslims say about me as a person and an ethnic representative. Recently a certain Muslim leader even held a Holocaust Denial conference... Michael Savage..... peanuts.

    This sort of simplification of what Muslims are is generating hatred and resentment on both sides.

    Unless you openly going to scream and yell to your 300,000,000 Arab bros on what those 300,000,000 bros say about my people - your exact rage is WORSELESS. There are a lot less of us.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  15. #15
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    What about the killing of accused "collaborators" or Arab honor killings or intra-Arab murders, including coups and suicide bombings? The reason I bring this up is because this rage is pointed outside, and yet much more violence is committed between Arabs than by Israel.

    A little off-topic, but still central.

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