50 Responses to criticisms of Israel

[scattergood]

You are the one telling the lie of history that Muslims are THE genociders and the ones responsible for THE Holocaust aren't. Really, why stop at hundreds of millions. I'm sure you can paint a picture of history where people were dying because of Muslims before Muhammad (SAW) was born! And some sick bastard will believe it. After all, you've filtered every evil human motive out of Muslim history. Muslims don't invade or kill or rape or do anything according to you for any reason other than religion. What a total crock! Muslims are and have been as subject to greed, imperialism and lust for power as any other group on the planet that's had half a shot at it.

And your delusions / paranoia continue. I have stated EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what you claim. I have never claimed that Muslims are the ONLY group to use violence and genocide in the spread of their religion. In fact, I said exactly "Just as Christian expansion has included massive amounts of force as well. " You even stated that we AGREED on that point. But yet, a few hours later, the perverse logic that is Andakian logic claims that I am only claiming that Muslims are violent, forceful and expansionary.

So which is it, are you lying now or were you lying when you said we agreed?

That's because, faced with your lies and fanatical hatred of Muslims, I can see you've got little place else to go. You say you want reform within the system to make everything harder for Muslims, but you won't say what measures you'd take. The cautionary tale for fanatics here, whether Al Qaida, Hindutvah or extreme right is, you CAN'T genocide people. Oh genocide is a very real thing for sure. But long term, outside of very small numbers of people, it's impossible. And, the end result is they come back more powerful and angrier than before.

My fanatical hatred of Muslims? I clearly stated that other groups used force and violence in pursuit of their colonial and religious goals. But yet in the bizarre and twisted logic that incessant logic that means some how I think Muslims are the only people who can commit genocide. Weird, but consistent with you.

Violent jihad is not, contrary to your incessant lies about total genocide of Jews and Christians. When Bin Laden sets forth his goals, that is not on the list. In fact, much as Ahmadinijad disgusts me, he has never said he wants to kill all the Jews.

Again, the 'it isn't genocide because we haven't been able to kill you all' meme. Combined with the 'hey we don't even want to kill you all' meme, that's a great defense. As I have said before, Islamic doctrine is to kill, convert, or subjugate all who are not Muslim. As all 4 schools of Sunni Jurisprudence teach, Islam shall expand and fight until it is dominate across the land. It shall give each person of the book the choice to convert, pay the jizya in submission, or fight and die. It shall give the non Muslims who are not people of the book the choice to convert or fight and die. That you cling to the belief that "hey, we give you the choice to fight and die, or to pay the jizya in submission and humiliation" so that proves we don't really want genocide, is pretty comical.

[andak01]

Again, the 'it isn't genocide because we haven't been able to kill you all' meme. Combined with the 'hey we don't even want to kill you all' meme, that's a great defense.

But they were able if that's what they had intended to do! That's my point entirely, the Ottomans and Saladin and for that matter Muhammad (SAW) himself could have killed every Jew within their reach if that was their goal. It wasn't. It wasn't a religious obligation or even a desire among them.' Saying that is was is a dishonest exageration.

That you cling to the belief that "hey, we give you the choice to fight and die, or to pay the jizya "in submission and humiliation" [your words] so that proves we don't really want genocide, is pretty comical.

If you can't see any difference between paying a tribute or having treaties or having taxes and being slaughtered that's your own problem. And anyone fool enough to be clouded about the difference, it's their problem. Islamic imperialism works just like any other imperialism and Islamic theocracy works just like any other theocracy. The request for tribute from powerful regiems or special taxes within theocracies is nothing unique to Muslims. Special taxes were levied against the Jews throughout Europe during the Middle Ages. America and China enact special trade levies that keep us at advantage over everyone else, but; since our basis of government isn't theocratic, the grounds for these unfair practices aren't theocratic either. Nevertheless, the duty of empire is to put oneself at an unfair advantage and taxes are a way to achieve that. Among medieval Europeans one such action which could be considered a tax was their periodic banishment of the Jews and seizure of all their goods in Europe. This was both condoned and encouraged by the church as was persecution of the Jews. But then, you know all that.

But back to today, how many of 50 some odd Muslim nations actually maintain a jizah tax today? Indonesia? Morocco? Algeria? Turkey? Tunisia? I won't say it's impossible to come up with a single example (or claim to), but such is very rare.

[Mil]

Posted by andak01:

But back to today, how many of 50 some odd Muslim nations actually maintain a jizah tax today? Indonesia? Morocco? Algeria? Turkey? Tunisia? I won't say it's impossible to come up with a single example (or claim to), but such is very rare.

Today there are no Jews left almost anywhere in the Arab world. There are may around 100,000 total Jews who live in all other majority Muslim countries. What happened?

[Sanket]

Today there are no Jews left almost anywhere in the Arab world. There are may around 100,000 total Jews who live in all other majority Muslim countries. What happened?

Please Respect Islam,

In Islamic Countries they have blasphemy laws, non-believers have to pay Jizya tax,etc. if the non-muslims want to stay they have to follow Islamic laws.

Why is it hard to understand?

Non-Muslims are not Humans according to Allah (PBUM...). I hope you will not make stupid arguments again.

AoA!!!
Ak47 phyrr in the Airr.

[andak01]

Today there are no Jews left almost anywhere in the Arab world. There are may around 100,000 total Jews who live in all other majority Muslim countries. What happened?

A lot of things happened and almost none of them has to do with Islam. First of all, the Jewish population in those countries was not declining prior to the creation of Israel. If there were millions of Jews living in the Arab world in 1948, then it cannot be that the same conditions which exist today were in place. And whether or not there was persecution, and there was, discounting entirely the assistance of the Jewish Agency for Israel and people's desire to make aliyah leaves out an important part of the story. I've posted the link below because previously posters on this forum have accused me of inventing the Jewish Agency. It exists, and it is very successful in doing what it was created to do. There is no evil plot or conspiracy, they facilitate the emmigration from all parts to Israel.

http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Home/

So yes, there was and is persecution. But would such persecution have emptied the Arab world of Jews in a period of sixty years when it wasn't emptied in 14 centuries? Doubtful. The existence of airlifts, visas, job opportunities and housing has greatly increased emmigration from those countries and to pretend otherwise is nothing short of propoganda.

[Mil]

Are you blaming Jews and Israel for what happened to the Ancient Jewish communities?

[andak01]

Are you blaming Jews for what happened to the Ancient Jewish communities? Of course it was the "Jewish Agency"!!!!

Absolutely not. I'm giving credit where credit is due. Had the back to Africa movement been as successful as the Jewish Agency, there wouldn't be a black person left on the North American continent! However, black Americans did not have the stimulus of alayah and its inferred religious obligation. Does that mean that the back to Africa movement is the "fault" of the freed slaves? Of course not. Does that mean that there wasn't any persecution? No. And persecution of Jews in Arab countries has been at least as bad as what African Americans have endurred since emancipation up to and including killings. Just so we are clear, I don't deny that.

What I'm saying is, the ancient Jewish communities were still in all of those places prior to 1948. Between the political Arab reaction to the creation of Israel and the program and assistance offered to aliyah, that is 90% of the cause. Otherwise this disappearance of Jewish communities could have and would have happened at any point in the last 14 centuries. If anything, those countries with the exception of KSA and Iran are less governed by Islam than they were 60 years ago.

I don't have to agree with the political reaction of Arab states in order to call it political instead of religious and I don't.

[Sanket]

American Converts are defending the Arabs. Cho Sweet. I hope they will ask for their own land in the next 50years. Long Live Islam.

[Mil]

Andak has never been an immigrant and for some unbeknown reason to the local audience is a staunch defender of the Arabs.

[Mil]

Posted by Andak:

What I'm saying is, the ancient Jewish communities were still in all of those places prior to 1948. Between the political Arab reaction to the creation of Israel and the program and assistance offered to aliyah, that is 90% of the cause. Otherwise this disappearance of Jewish communities could have and would have happened at any point in the last 14 centuries. If anything, those countries with the exception of KSA and Iran are less governed by Islam than they were 60 years ago.

? So the Arabs are intollerant of Jews. Right? All communities from ALL Arab countries disappeared within a matter of in fact 20-30 years.

I don't have to agree with the political reaction of Arab states in order to call it political instead of religious and I don't.

Really? Any Jews out there?

[andak01]

American Converts are defending the Arabs. Cho Sweet. I hope they will ask for their own land in the next 50years. Long Live Islam.

It has nothing to do with defending the Arabs. The Jewish population has dropped in non-Arab and non-Muslim areas as well. In fact, it has dropped in almost every place except America, Western Europe and Israel. Are you going to blame Islam for the drop in Jewish population in Poland?

At its postwar peak, there were 180,000–240,000 Jews in Poland settled mostly in Warsaw, ŁÃ³dź, Kraków, Wrocław and Lower Silesia, e.g., Legnica, Dzierżoniów and Bielawa.
...
Between 1945 and 1948, 100,000–120,000 Jews left Poland. Their departure was largely organized by the Zionist activists in Poland such as Adolf Berman and Icchak Cukierman under the umbrella of a semi-clandestine organization Berihah ("Flight").[51] Berihah was also responsible for the organized emigration of Jews from Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Yugoslavia totaling 250,000 (including Poland) Holocaust survivors.
...
In 2006, Poland's Jewish population was estimated to be approximately 20,000 [19]; most living in Warsaw, Wrocław, Kraków, and Bielsko-Biała, though there are no census figures that would give an exact number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...Poland#Postwar

You try to blame everything on Islam and there are actually many political and demographic factors involved. If an Arab hates Jews because he's read the Protocols or Mein Kampf, are you going to blame that on Islam? Oh yeah, I almost forgot who I'm talking to.

[Sanket]

I can understand Middle East Islamic Countries hating Jews & Israel. But i want to know why Other Muslims hate Jews & Israel. Is it because someone wrote in the book ? or Ummah Effect ?

That's why when a Muslim follows Islam seriously he becomes stupid. There is no place for logic.

That's the problem with Islam & That's why i hate it.

[Brody15]

Violence and genocide only are effective ways of silencing dissent if the genocide is complete. That hasn't happened with Jews or Hindus or Armenians or Tutsis any other group that can still have a dialogue about their past. I suppose a good example of total annihilation would be the Midianites.



As was the bloody incursion of Christianity over Europe, North and South America.



Glad we agree on that.



But, just as with Christian expansion, that violence is neither a necessary part of core doctrine, nor the only way the religion is spread.

A whole ton of Muslims think it's necessary, they're doing it. This should break your heart as a Muslim, and you should be doing everything you can to change it.

[Mil]

Posted by Andak01:

You try to blame everything on Islam and there are actually many political and demographic factors involved. If an Arab hates Jews because he's read the Protocols or Mein Kampf, are you going to blame that on Islam? Oh yeah, I almost forgot who I'm talking to.

The fact remains... a certain ethnic group has almost disappeared in a matter of two decades from a certain geographic location spanning a number of sovereign countries.
Lets call it ethnic cleansing. As to Islam.... I don't know about you but I would not feel safe wearing a kippa in Morocco in public.

[andak01]

That's why when a Muslim follows Islam seriously he becomes stupid. There is no place for logic.

Right. That's why so many of us become engineers and doctors. We're all at odds with science. Did you mention we all have big noses and wear funny hats?

That's the problem with Islam & That's why i hate it.

From what I can see, you don't need a reason anymore. You've achieved that same blind ignorance that you accuse others of having.