50 Responses to criticisms of Israel

[andak01]

The point, that you finally seem to get to admit, is that the terrorists are quoting and using the above as support for their views.

Charles Manson quoted from the Book of Revelations. So what? The Quran and the Sunna have been used to support every movement from the Drunken Sufis to the builders of some of the first hospitals and universities to the Nation of Islam. There are many different interpretations, not one. It doesn't bother me that terrorists quote that stuff anymore than it would have bothered me as a Christian that Erik Rudolph or the Lord's Resistance Army or Charles Manson or the KKK quote the Bible.

If you have an issue it is with the traditional and historical understanding of Islam, by the scholars and the practitioners, so take it up with them.

I don't. I have an issue with the concept of theocracy as supported by all major religions. All of the issues you are referring to are part and parcel of the same intolerance that was found whenever a state is based on a religion throughout history.

The point is that as much as you constant bring up the Midianites, there is no significant body of work in Rabbinic Judaism, the Mishnah, Gemara, etc. that expounds that Christians are Midianites and thus must be killed, or that Muslims are Midianintes and thus must be killed.

That's quite a jump in logic. We were referring to theocratic states. You can't compare a theocracy to a secular state on the grounds of religious tolerance. Secular states are based on economic systems. It's not a crime against the state in a secular state to espouse a different religion, but it is a matter of state security if someone derails the economic system.

No, I just think that people like Ibn Kathir, and the Hadith of al-Muslim know more about Islam than you do.

They espoused theocratic rule during a period when there wasn't anything else. Relative to their contemporary Christian counterparts, they were better than average.

This again? Go to the UK and deal with the 40% of college students who are Muslim who support Sharia. And stop with the lie of 1%. Studies show that support for terrorism ranges from the high teens to the mid 50's in such 'moderate' countries as Morocco that you like to point to.

I'll give you that many people in those places who would not support terrorist acts against anyone else would still support them against Israel. That is however slowly changing. The drop in support for terrorism noted by the Pew survey applies to these people too.

Well we don't know now do we. The airlifts and escapes probably saved them from the horrors of their neighbors, a la Hebron in 1929.

That's at least what they were told.

And who would have been the ethnic cleanser?

You could not rightly understand the situation without both understanding the level of persecution and the ones who facilitated a demographic shift, particularly when the latter exherted great means to affect that shift.

Since I didn't bring up the Holocaust in this reference you of course are jsut trying to change the subject. But since you have, the Aremenians come to mind since the person who coined the term genocide had them in mind.

Who, Muslims or Turks?

Conscripted meaning kindnapped from their parents as young as 8, forced to convert, and then sent to war against their former Christian co-religionists. Futher, Jews weren't conscripted into the Roman army, although they did serve as auxillaries. Jews were not kidnapped en mass and Romanized.

There was enough Roman religion including emporor worship forced upon them that they rebelled. I'm sure you are familiar with this. Moreover the Catholic church also kidnapped children from their parents to be raised Christian, though not in those numbers.

This of course is another flat out lie. The Communists and Nazis (those responsible for most of the 100M you quote) were anti-Christian, atheists, and in some cases pagans. They didn't kill people in Jesus' name.

Heck no. Using your means of calculation I can include every Japanese killed, every North Korean, every Vietnamese and every non-European killed in any military conflict funded or supported by European Christians. After all, that's how you've butchered 14 centuries of the history of Muslims. You've taken out every human motivation except religion from everything they did. It's a characterature!

The Muslim conquerors of the Indian subcontinent however, waged jihad, explicitly, and did so in the name of Islam.

And what name did the Crusaders put on their wars? The Spanish? The first British colonists?

As for my big secret plans for Muslims, who says I have any? I don't.

Good, then if you will be so kind, point out what changes should be made in our system for the improvement of security against terrorism. You seem to believe the Constitution doesn't provide enough protection against Muslims. What would you do?

Of course, this is in direct opposition to what you have requested be done to me.

I think you'd best get over it. I never had any control over whether you stayed or went and I don't now. BTW, compared to some of the looney's here, you're a relatively straight up kind of guy. Although we have our flame wars, at least I occasionally see a functioning brain there.

As to the general case of Muslims in the country at large, I would say no special treatment, anywhere. No accommodation.

In that case, we are 100% in agreement on that issue. Well, except that accomodation is permitted to other religions in certain circumstances. Now, I'd be willing to accept no accomodations for Muslims if those other accomodations were taken away. For example, if Muslims aren't allowed to practice family law in UK, then neither should Jews or Catholics.

Taken a step further, I'd be willing to accept more accomodations for other religions where the demographics make that feasible. For example, if the Orthodox community in Williamsburg, Brooklyn wants to lobby for special community regulations, let them. Or don't and make that the rule for everyone else.

[Brody15]

Yeah whatever.

WILMINGTON-- After surviving a terrorist attack in Mumbai, India, 10 months ago, when armed men targeted westerners in two five-star hotels, Greenville resident Dennis O'Brien did not turn to hate.

Instead, he sought to understand the root faith the people behind the attacks claimed to practice and discovered it had been twisted by the gunmen.

Eventually, he came to embrace it.

On Sunday, standing before a crowd of thousands, following prayers to mark the end of Ramadan, O'Brien, a Catholic, embraced Islam in a testimony of faith called Shahada, where he publically declared that there was only one God and the Prophet Muhammad is his last messenger and servant.

O'Brien, who heads up the education committee of St. Anthony's Catholic Church in Wilmington, said the move was a surprise, even to him.
But said he was at peace with it.

"Today I feel free of sin," he said.

After several months of studies and asking questions of Muslim friends and associates, "I feel comfort in Islam," he said.

http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...LIFE/909210320

Definitely stockholm syndrome, which is sad, I mean, these folks went through hell, if you ever get a chance to watch a doc on the event following the communications between the terrorists, pure hell they created.

And you might be able to argue that this guys was converted by the sword, or at least the threat of the sword, as it murdered everyone around him.

On another note, I hope this guy doesn't fully succumb to his demons and doesn't end up on a terrorist watch list.

[Marc39]

Islamic countries are doing wonders in Technology, medicine,etc.

Rocket science in Islamic countries consists of building rockets, then, firing them into Israel and other countries.

Otherwise, Islamic countries are among the most backward in technology, medicine, etc.

[Kwizatz]

Hi All,

I've just been reading the "50 responses" and it all seems remarkably reasonable!
For a long time now, like most Irish people I have tended to sympathize with the Palestinians (don't get upset yet! ), but increasingly I've found myself questioning this seemingly blind allegiance.

First of all Israel gets a lot of bad publicity in the west and perhaps some of it is justified, but the more I look at the Middle East, I see a lot of strange stuff going on that doesn't seem to get as much publicity. For example I found out recently that Saudi Arabia has anti-witchcraft squads, and seems to regularly condemn people to death for practicing witchcraft. It seems like something from out of the middle ages almost - and yet, we sort of look at these incidents as comical tales from backward societies. There's almost an accepted tradition of looking down on Muslim countries and so never holding them to the same moral standards that countries in the west (and Israel) are held to!
We are regularly informed of journalists being kidnapped in the certain countries and it almost seems to be accepted as what happens there. If the same things were reported to have been committed in Israel though there would be worldwide coverage in the media. So obviously in that respect I can only agree with some of the posts here that indeed there is a double standard, but I think it stems from Israel with it's democracy and traditions is simply held to a higher degree of accountability by western media.

Secondly if you look at other countries around the world and how they deal with potential terrorists, there's not a lot of difference with how Israel reacts - take the U.S., China, Russia, Britain, Saudi, Iran, etc in some cases how they deal with suspect terrorists and even political dissenters is a lot worse than how Israel generally reacts. Looks at China's activities in dealing with Tibetans, political critics and even religious practitioners and yet China only ever seems to receive mild condemnation, sometimes I wonder if it's down to just economic reasons.

Thirdly, it seems that if I came on here and criticized everything Israel did, if I criticized Judaism and all the Jews, the worst that would happen is I would be called anti-Semitic and maybe banned from the forum, but as we've seen the same sort of criticisms applied to other countries and religions often leads to hysterical responses demanding blood and war.

So anyway, overall I think whatever crimes Israel is accused of are no worse than what the countries doing the accusing are guilty of, it's almost amazing that the whole country of Israel hasn't been radicalized in light of the continued security threats and what must seem like global condemnation. Thankfully you haven't and hopefully for a long time will be an example of what a middle-eastern democracy should be!

In finishing I just hope I haven't upset too many people with my first post, all I am trying to say is that in trying to understand for myself why Israel receives such bad press in comparison with other countries I found myself unable to really understand it and in turn I found myself sympathizing more with Israel itself.
K.

[bararallu]

"There's almost an accepted tradition of looking down on Muslim countries and so never holding them to the same moral standards that countries in the west (and Israel) are held to! "

Ever hear from Edward Said? These has been programmatic banning of censuring or criticizing Arab/Muslim communities.

[farmboy]

welcome Kwizatz.
Stick around and your eyes will surely be opened to the injustices that Israel and Jews in general suffer.
True they have to be fairer than fair in their treatment of their enemies as the world holds them under a microscope. An Arab dominated United Nations is so quick to point the finger for the slightest rumour of infraction and yet when Mubarak, Assad, Qadaffi and Amadinejad slaughter their own people they escape from any condemnation quicker than a rat up a drain.
Again welcome

[Reffo]

Kwizatz

Welcome to the forum. I hope there will be many more of you coming soon. Thank you for taking the trouble to do a bit of homework about the Middle East. Unfortunately too many people can't or won't do the same and they find it easier to follow sensationalist malicious voices/writings. Thank you for choosing not to be one of the "fashionable" mob.

[Kwizatz]

Thanks for the welcomes!
Since my previous post I've researched a bit more about the history of the Jews in Israel. Not being Jewish and raised as a Catholic in Ireland it's been quite eye opening. In Ireland we like to go on a bit about the 800 years of English/British occupation and suppression, but from what I've read it seems the last 2500 years approx of Jews in Israel has been one oppression, mass slaughter and exile after another - Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Early Christian Romans, Byzantines, Early Islamic Arabs, Crusaders, Malmuks, Ottomans, Palestinians, etc. It's dare I say of "Biblical proportions" the extent of the suffering and persecution!
Personally I rejected Catholicism a long time ago, I couldn't possibly understand how a church that supposedly represented someone who said "Love your enemy, love your neighbour, etc" could then be responsible for so many deaths (Crusades, Conversion of South America, Witch-hunts, suicides as a result of pedophila) could possibly represent the same person I had been taught about!
Anyway, I've also read about the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", how it's fake and also how it's a plagiarized version of an original criticism of the Jesuit order - which is regularly quoted by Hamas and in the past by Hitler himself as some sort of justification of genocide. More than ever I understand the need for a Jewish homeland specifically in Israel (I was already aware of the Isaac/Ishmael debate which from experience makes me rare enough among people raised in western Catholicism). Anyway, all I'm saying is the more I learn the more I realise how many lies are perpetuated! Oh, and Reffo I like your quote "Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem."

[Reffo]

Kwizatz

It's a truism. It is always easier to be sanctimonious at someone else's expense and without looking at the issues and the context.

[Yarden]

Thank you for the link. This is a great tool to keep handy due to the world's ignorance of middle eastern history. Shalom everyone.

[Reffo]

Israel would be well advised not to ignore the tactics of the Arabs. In fact, the tactic in the west at least, are more the tactics of the extreme left. They are the authors and the implementors of all pro Arab/Anti Israel propaganda.

They recruited millions of shock troopers who flood the internet with lies and hate filled propaganda against Israel. Unlike many of us, they have not the slightest interest in the facts or attempting to see the situation from the perspective of both sides. They adopted the tactics of Goebbles and Pravda. Repetition, strong opinions and flooding the internet with sheer volume.

Israel can no longer ignore this. It needs to consider using their own tactics against them. They need to be defeated in the form of warfare that THEY chose. That will demoralise them. If we need to spend lots of money on this, it would be money well spent.

[pelsar]

Having spent many years on the far left forums, i can certainly agree that the perspective of both sides is not relevant, nor are any facts from the "pro palestenian" crowd....as well as their lack of tolerance for other viewpoints. But its useful to understand why and that in fact is not difficult. The far left is simply a racist based nationalistic movement.

Their primary goal in the I/P conflict is a state for the Palestinians, whether its on the ruins of israel or not, is not relevant, that detail, as in whether or not its a fascist, theocratic state devoid of western civil rights is also irrelevant (this will take time for them to admit and lots of wiggling). Keep that in mind when talking to any of them and their perspective and view point are very clear.

Furthermore, its a religious belief, the concept of self-determination for the Palestinians, and as in any religion anything goes to reach the goal and if there is any conflict in the various beliefs, its easily explained as "part of the process." (the classic being that a "progressive" believes in womens rights, yet will support the creation and defend a Palestine that is based on shari law-since they are first and foremost nationalists).

Which also explains why the rocket fire from gaza means nothing.....if that is part of the 'steps" toward their 'self-determination" than it is acceptable. Hence if you bring up the possibility that hamas might take over the WB and start firing rockets from there, that too is not relevant

"human rights" are not the issue, they are a tactic for the end goal.

..just a few notes when talking to the far left to bear in mind

[Aliyah1995]

IMO, there is also a healthy dose of the far left (aka "progressive" movement) that is simply against the idea of a Jewish State. It doesn't matter if a Jewish State is established in the North Pole or on the moon and there would be no land dispute. They just parrot the old adage that a Jewish State is racist, fascist, supremacist, etc. etc. non-stop. Now, of course they don't seem to have an issue with Muslim states. Part of the reason, I'm sure, is because of the oil they are so dependent on. Another reason, I'm sure, is no small number of "progressives" are old fashioned anti-semites and are repulsed by anything Jewish (state or otherwise). And, then of course, there is the West's sensitivity to Islam and not being able to insult it in any shape, size, or form (which would include saying a Muslim state should not exist, even if you are equally opposed to a Jewish state, but the Jews don't control the oil and won't lynch you for saying such a thing)....

[bar-arallu]

Israel wasn't started to be a democratic state or a western state actually. Though those things are great additions. It was started as a refugee state. That was it's only raison detre. It was a state to house a tattered nation, a place where the Nation can restart it's own consolidated history, notwithstanding the particular stresses, and huge variation of opinion across politics and culture, of the diaspora community.

[pelsar]

IMO, there is also a healthy dose of the far left (aka "progressive" movement) that is simply against the idea of a Jewish State. It doesn't matter if a Jewish State is established in the North Pole or on the moon and there would be no land dispute. They just parrot the old adage that a Jewish State is racist, fascist, supremacist, etc. etc. non-stop. Now, of course they don't seem to have an issue with Muslim states. Part of the reason, I'm sure, is because of the oil they are so dependent on. Another reason, I'm sure, is no small number of "progressives" are old fashioned anti-semites and are repulsed by anything Jewish (state or otherwise). And, then of course, there is the West's sensitivity to Islam and not being able to insult it in any shape, size, or form (which would include saying a Muslim state should not exist, even if you are equally opposed to a Jewish state, but the Jews don't control the oil and won't lynch you for saying such a thing)....

Israel is in fact the "perfect storm" for the far left....everybody gets to join in and jump on us: for some is simply anti-semitism guised up as "anti zionism" others find our capitalistic govt an evil thing, for others we represent the colonialists, others see the Palestinians as victims and we put them there....we really hit the jackpot, we provide something for anybody who has a beef with the modern world and they all get to join together...hamas, progressives, anarchists, fascists.....and they all have one thing strong in common: no moral values. They will all defend their "use" of the other as a means to the end. (actually i would give hamas the credit for being honest about using anything and anybody ....its the westerners that I find lacking in moral backbone).