A New Iron Curtain

Mohoc · 08-05-2002, 12:24 PM

On June 16, 2002 Israel started construction of a 217 mile long fence that will run the as of yet unmarked border between the West Bank and Israel. The new border will look similar to the border that once separated Germany in to the Federal Republic Of Germany and The German Democratic Republic. A border that split a nation and a continent apart that was destined to become one of the most visible signs of the Cold War in Europe. Like the former inner German border, it will have a fence, ditches, roads patrolled by soldiers and electronic surveillance facilities. The only difference will be that it is supposed to keep people outside the country instead of in it.
But the new fence has brought with it an unlikely coalition of people that want to stop the construction of the fence. On one side are the some of the most conservative Israelis settlers and on the other are many Palestinians. Both oppose the construction of the barrier for different reasons.
Many Israeli settlers fear that the new fortifications will create a de-facto border that will not include their settlements. They fear that their lands will end up in a future Palestinian state. According to CNN, they have tried to persuade Prime Minister Ariel to locate the fence farther into the West Bank and to provide guarantees that it will never become a political border.
At the same time, many Palestinians fear that the new fence will create a border that is â€œset in stoneâ€ and will not be negotiable in further talks with the Israeli government. In addition, chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat said on CNN that the fence is sealing off Palestinian towns, villages and refugee camps. He also said that a fence in it self is not a bad idea, but it would have to be constructed after the issue of defining border was solved. The current plan for the fence would put Jerusalem almost exclusively on the Israeli side, with the exception of a few Palestinian suburbs.
The United States has not criticized Israel for the construction of the fence but has warned that Israel should be mindful of the consequences according to Scott McClellan, the White House deputy press secretary. At the same time Israel insists that the fence is only intended as a security measure and in no way to form a border with a future Palestinian state.
The construction of the fence comes at a time, when negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA) have come a halt. There have been no high level negotiations between the two parties since the start of the Palestinian intifada in October of 2000.
Could the fence really stop future suicide attacks? In order to answer this question, we have to look at the Gaza Strip. There, such a fence has been in existence for several years now. Since then, suicide attacks form this area have become virtually non-existent, but at the same time, Gaza City has become the center of terrorism in the Middle East. The Israeli Defense Forces [IDF] do not enter the area and militancy is as widely spread as the poverty that marks the area. It appears that the IDF has given up on fighting terrorism in the area. The only way the IDF has managed to strike against militants in the area has been by air. A few weeks ago, they dropped a one ton bomb on the house of Salah Shehadeh, the military leader of Hamas according to the AP.
The problems in the Gaza Strip clearly show that the building of a fence solves no problems, but only pushes the out of view for the populace protected by it. Although it might help in the short and middle term, it will not make the problem go away. The only solution for stopping the violence is to create a permanent peace that would integrate Israel into a community with its Arab neighbors and the only way to achieve is to create a sovereign Palestinian state. The biggest problem with this is that the current Israeli government is unwilling to continue the peace process amidst raging Palestinian violence.
Currently the only things that both parties can agree on, is that the issue of Jerusalem has to be solved before anything else can happen. My personal opinion here is that it may be time to involve a third party, like the Vatican to take control over the city. The other thing I truly belive is that currently no leader, be it Israeli or Palestinian, is able or willing to propose such a bold solution. Both sides are to entrenched in their positions to look beyond their trench to find a solution.

Moon · 08-05-2002, 12:42 PM

Palestinian suicide incursions into Israel are a problem, the biggest problem of Israel. It must be stopped. This wall is the best solution although it might not be the solution.

To all anti-wall protesters:

If a better solution is not purposed, the current solution is not discussable and certainly not dismissable.

As for that funny idea of the Vatican take over Jerusalem... ROFL

**NewsGuy** · 08-05-2002, 12:42 PM

Mohoc,

Where was this published originally?

Mohoc · 08-05-2002, 12:45 PM

it is a draft for a short research paper that I am writing for my english class.

these are my sources:

www.cnn.com
www.nytimes.com
www.midestweb.com
www.afsc.org/ispal/halper.htm
www.times.com
http://www.nad-plo.org
www.israel.org

Moon · 08-05-2002, 12:53 PM

Your English is fine, congratulations. It's a pity that your argument is easly refuted. But if your teacher is pro-Palestinian than it should be ok.

Mohoc · 08-05-2002, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Moon
Your English is fine, congratulations. It's a pity that your argument is easly refuted. But if your teacher is pro-Palestinian than it should be ok.

do you have any sugestions to make my point stronger?

**NewsGuy** · 08-05-2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by Mohoc
it is a draft for a short research paper that I am writing for my english class.

Good luck with the paper.

There are some factual errors, though:

You wrote: "...Gaza City has become the center of terrorism in the Middle East," implying that this is a new development since the fence was built. It is not.

Actually, places like Jenin, Qalqilia, Nablus and other Palestinian squatter towns have been breeding grounds for Palestinian terrorism, equally with Gaza. The only difference between the West Bank and Gaza is that Israel left Gaza untouched during Operation Protective Shield, which is the real reason that the terrorism there is still thriving.

The problems in the Gaza Strip clearly show that the building of a fence solves no problems, but only pushes the out of view for the populace protected by it. Although it might help in the short and middle term, it will not make the problem go away.

No, the problems in the Gaza strip show that to destroy the Palestinian terror apparatus, the IDF needs to go into Gaza with another operation defensive Shield.

For its part, the fence is doing its job of stopping terrorists just fine, although you seem to think that Israelis built the fence as a way to change the Arab culture of terrorism and Jihad. That's not true -- it was never the goal of the fence in the first place, so I disagree with you that it is a failure.

Separation from the Palestinians is a positive development. The sooner there can be complete, airtight separation, the better.

Currently the only things that both parties can agree on, is that the issue of Jerusalem has to be solved before anything else can happen.

Not true. The sticking point has not been Jerusalem, since Israel offered in essence to have the Palestinians rule parts of the Israeli capital. The problem has always been that Arafat rejected any solution that would not guarantee the total destruction of the State of Israel. So when Israel refused to inject a few million more Palestinian enemies into the heart of Israel, as demanded by Arafat, then the Palestinians continued their Jihad-genocide of the Jewish people of Israel. That's the problem that needs to be solved -- and the pope and the Vatican are better off staying in Italy to deal with their own Church problems and not get involved in the Middle East.

danholo · 08-05-2002, 01:19 PM

This "Iron Curtain" has been there for a long time.
The West has no idea of the Arab culture (except terrorism) and the Arabs have no idea of the West (except colonial imperialism).

If you ask me this curtain has been down for a long time and it wont be lifted in a long, long time.

Mohoc · 08-05-2002, 01:25 PM

No, the problems in the Gaza strip show that to destroy the Palestinian terror apparatus, the IDF needs to go into Gaza with another operation defensive Shield.

I don't belive in a violent solution, like going into towns and destroying the home of the families of suicide bombers etc.. It may work in the short term, but only creates more bomers in the middle and long term.

Separation from the Palestinians is a positive development. The sooner there can be complete airtight separation, the better.

I agree with you on this completely.

Not true. The sticking point has not been Jerusalem, since Israel offered in essence to have the Palestinian rule parts of the Israeli capital. The problem has always been that Arafat rejected any solution that would not guarantee the total destruction of the State of Israel.

I don't agree with you that this would lead to the destruction of Israel. Both sides want the city as their capital, therefore they don't want to give it up. For both sides the reasons are mostly religious.

Moon · 08-05-2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Mohoc

do you have any sugestions to make my point stronger?

Well... you started this thread by presenting your point. Just read what people have to say about it. As for me, I have nothing else to add on the subject. And I believe that my first post on this thread shows the key for making stronger any point on the wall issue.

Good luck with your paper too!

danholo · 08-05-2002, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by Mohoc
I don't agree with you that this would lead to the destruction of Israel. Both sides want the city as their capital, therefore they don't want to give it up. For both sides the reasons are mostly religious.

I disagree. Jerusalem is important for Jews in a historical, religious and national sense.
Moslems always attempt to turn others religious sites to theirs and ban access to non-Moslems and non-Muslims are not even to come close to the site. This is what Jordan did in Judea and Samaria and this is what happened to the Machpelah in Hebron.
Our forefathers and mothers are believed to be buried there. It is holy in a religious sense and in a national sense too.
One room is barred to Jews except for 10 days of a year. Jerusalem, Hebron and the hole damn plot of land is more holy to us then it is for Moslems. If a place is even slightly holy for Moslems they claim it for themselves.

ComfortablyNumb · 08-05-2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by danholo

I disagree. Jerusalem is important for Jews in a historical, religious and national sense.
Moslems always attempt to turn others religious sites to theirs and ban access to non-Moslems and non-Muslims are not even to come close to the site. This is what Jordan did in Judea and Samaria and this is what happened to the Machpelah in Hebron.
Our forefathers and mothers are believed to be buried there. It is holy in a religious sense and in a national sense too.
One room is barred to Jews except for 10 days of a year. Jerusalem, Hebron and the hole damn plot of land is more holy to us then it is for Moslems. If a place is even slightly holy for Moslems they claim it for themselves.

Exactly what I was going to say... I think Arafat's call for Jerusalem as their capital is an aparatus to "break Israel".

Correct me if I am wrong, I havent read history books in a while

, but when Israel was first formed, wasnt Jerusalem declared an "international city"? And then during the very first war the Arabs tried to take it all? Once again, a major disclaimer: don't flame me if I am wrong... I genuinenly do not remember.

elke · 08-05-2002, 03:37 PM

The UN resolution that described the concept of Partition called for Jerusalem to be internationalized. The Old City was grabbed by the Jordanians in 1948. One of my professors in college told me that on his bus ride from Israel to Jordan, their Jordanian chaperones with guns, told them not to even look backwards (toward Israel). He was a non-Jewish American, and this was 1964.

**NewsGuy** · 08-06-2002, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Mohoc
The only way the IDF has managed to strike against militants in the area has been by air...

Gotta strike that too, Mohoc.

Today, the IDF entered Gaza with tanks, bulldozers and helicopters.

**Mediocrates** · 08-06-2002, 05:20 PM

For both sides the reasons are mostly religious.

No.

First off Jerusalem is much more than the Old City. It is the largest city and capital of Israel. Home to about 700,000 Israelis.

Second Arafat believes it is his personal destiny to wrest Jerusalem from the infidels and he will never give up that one attribute of his personal mythology.