Solutions

[fred]

OK - This thread is about solutions. Let's all dream a little bit. Once we get past the violence, I'd like to hear what your personal visions are for the future of the land. Plain statements please. No rhetoric. Let's have some dreams of what the political landscape could look like in 50 years on the land we call Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank.
Please offer your support for one or more options with a rational framework on how the social and political relations between ethnic groups might be managed. Or offer other options.
Let me start with a few options on the table, without bias.

A JEWISH STATE IN ALL THE LAND
This could open a number of options. How to guarrantee a Jewish majority?:
1. Transfer sufficient Palestinians to maintain demographics.
2. Create 2 (or more) classes of citizenship
3. Create Palestinian autonomy areas
4. massive Jewish immigration
5. Have an all out war and kill sufficient Palestinians to guarantee a Jewish majority

TWO VIABLE SOVEREIGN STATES
1. Withdraw Israeli citizens from the land that will comprise the second state
2. Allow the second state all the rights normally accorded to sovereign states
3. Allow mutual rights of residency between the states

MULTIPLE STATES IN A FEDERATION
1. Two or more states, allowing those that prefer a religious state in part of the land, and those that prefer a secular state in part of the land
2. Federal government under a constitution protecting individual and group rights.
3. Economic common market

OK - that's a start. There are multiple options among these three, and more.

[Haifa]

** Deleted **

[Vic]

Originally posted by fred
Plain statements please. No rhetoric

[...]

A JEWISH STATE IN ALL THE LAND
This could open a number of options. How to guarrantee a Jewish majority?:

First - a question:

Are - in your opinion - the "Jewish" and "Arab" positions, worldviews etc. in Israel incompatible, both now and on the long run? Is there actually any chance that at least a part of "Israeli Arabs" will pose no threat to the "Jewish majority", becoming in their outlook similar to (secular?) Israeli Jews? I know a similar process among Russians and other non-Jews of the fmr. Soviet Union - becoming "adopted" Jews, so to say, mostly through (secular) education and close personal contacts.

Come to think of it - do Muslims ever convert to Judaism, in Israel and elsewhere?

There is an earlier thread on a related issue in this forum, btw.: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...=&threadid=946

[sharonbn]

I go for two sovereign states.
I believe it is the most practical AND just solution.
I also believe the borders are going to be very close to the maps of Camp David summit and Clinton plan.
It will require the dismantling of all Jewish settlements in Gaza and the majority of them in WB.
However, I don't see this becoming a reality for the next 10 years or more. After that.......

[SteveMetch]

Oslo proved that option 2 and 3 will not work. There is too much hatred amongst the islamic arab population. Option 1 is to drastic if implemented in a rapid fashion. I suggest a gradual version of option 1.


Proposal

Step 1: Divide the West Bank and Gaza into approx. 1,000 logical land tracts.

Step 2: Announce to the world that every Israel citizen killed from this point forward will result in the annexation of 1 land tract in the order outlined by a published map.

Step 3: After a terrorist attack has killed X number of citizens the appropriate set of land tracts will be annexed and all Non-Israel citizens will be forcibly removed from the land tract.


Step 4: Any structures deemed unnecessary or that represent a security risk will be removed.


The logical order of land tracts:

Land tracts around the green line that improve security

Land tracts which help connect settlements to what is currently Israel

Land tracts that contain no Arab populations (settlements, open land etc)

Land tracts that contain shanty town Arab populations

Land tracts that do not include infrastructure (power plants etc)

Land tracts that does include infrastructure

Land tracts that contain more permanent Arab populations

All remaining land

Currently there is no established non-ambiguous price tag on violence; as such Israel lives have no value to the Arabs. Placing a definite value on each murder will bring some measure of meaning to the death of so many people as well as establish an ultimate end to the death toll.

Land for Peace has failed. Its time to give Peace or Land a try.

[Haifa]

How is this going to stop attacks? The same way Hamas sneaked through the green line, it is going to sneak through the borders. You have not solved anything.

Besides, this is ethnic chlensing. Just as bad as driving the Jews to the sea. Many Jews unfortunatily believe in it. If it had not been to international pressure it would have been done long time ago.

In an ideal world, the solution would be giving a deadline to all Jews in the world. You either go now or never. And then Israel, west bank and Gaza turn into a secular state.

In the real world, a 2 state solution seems good. Within the next 3 years, I predict.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
Currently there is no established non-ambiguous price tag on violence; as such Israel lives have no value to the Arabs. Placing a definite value on each murder will bring some measure of meaning to the death of so many people as well as establish an ultimate end to the death toll.

Land for Peace has failed. Its time to give Peace or Land a try.

I liked it!

[Vic]

Originally posted by Haifa
In an ideal world, the solution would be giving a deadline to all Jews in the world.

A deadline for what???

[SteveMetch]

Haifa, you might check out this slide show and then get back to us. The two state solution will only work for 30% of the Arabs in WB and Gaza.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/sl...s/slide_1.html

[Haifa]

A dead line for what

to get into Israel. That's the ideal solution, of course.

SteveMech: do you have any sources?

All the website says is: 69% support suicide bombing, according to a study in 2000 or 2001. There is no mentioning of a 30% with a 2 state solution.

[SteveMetch]

http://www.jmcc.org/polls/pop/01/Jul/pop5.htm

[Vic]

Originally posted by Haifa
to get into Israel. That's the ideal solution, of course.

A deadline for Jews to immigrate into Israel?

Any comments from Israeli posters on this?

[Haifa]

From your website


It is worthwhile mentioning that the level of support for suicide bombing operations had increased dramatically during the current Intifada as compared to a few years earlier (JMCC poll # 20, May 1997) when only 24% of Palestinians supported suicide operations (see figure 4).

***
the support was 69% in 2001. Now I predict it is in the 50s or 40s.
***


Respondents were asked what they thought the preferred solution for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict was. Forty-seven percent of Palestinians supported the two state solution, 22% supported a bi-national state in historic Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal rights, 12% thought that there was no solution to the conflict, 12% supported a Palestinian state, 1% supported an Islamic state, 4% were not sure, and 1% did not give an answer

************


The situation is not bad as it seems to be.

[SteveMetch]

What is the final goal for the Intifada?

Party Improve Nego Pal Stat UN 242 Destroy Israel
Fateh 12% 59% 26%
Islamic 6% 31% 62%
Others 5% 44% 51%
None 9% 43% 42%

Average 9% 46% 41%


Source: http://www.jmcc.org/polls/pop/01/Jul/pop5.htm

The Nazi's took over Germany with only 30% of the popular vote.

Violent Ideologies don't need majorities.

By the way UN 242 is unacceptable to most Jewish citizens of Israel.

I wish there was another way out of this situation other than war.

This is a good article to read about war.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson070302.asp

[Haifa]

is this how you calculate an average?

what you do is estimate the weighted average =

(# of Fatah * %) + (# of hamas * %) + (# of others * %) = real number