The Arab Problem

[I am David]

The Arab problem, this is not to be ignored. Currently Israel is comprised of about 81% Jews and about 18% Arabs, an already disturbingly large ratio of Jews to Arabs.

Now the problem arises as result of the birth rates, the Arab's birth rate being an increase of about 4%, which is huge, and a Jewish birth rate of about 1%, somewhat lower than average. This poses a huge problem, Israel could be, within the lifetime of the younger generation, no longer a Jewish majority, and within a few hundred years all traces of Judaism and Jews will be nothing but a memory for the most part in Israel.

This is FACT. This WILL happen, the Arab growth rate is much faster than the Jews', and they are already constitute almost 20% of Israel's population, a huge number.

This is not good, Israel will soon cease to be a Jewish state, even if the Arabs become wealthier and slow their reproduction rate, it will always be a bit higher than the Jews, and this is too difficult and timely to do.

So what do we do? This absolutly cannot happen. I want to hear some plans to civily and humanly get the Jews to be unquestionably the majority in Israel both now and in the future. Hopefully we can bring the Jewish majority up to at least 90%, if not 95%.

[Mr. Pumps]

Well I am david if there is ever a colony on the Moon, that would be a perfect place to send the Arabs. But we don't have that ....Shucks!.

[Mediocrates]

David Ricardo and Dr. Malthus -

We all assume hockeysticking. I suppose it's possible, but affluence seems to push birthrates in the other direction. It simply becomes too expensive to maintain a brood of seven + in the style to which....

Although I'll admit perhaps rational thought does not apply when it comes to trying to wipe out all the Jews of Israel.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Humainly....its possible...civily, nope. The ONLY way to assure Jewish population to stay the majority is to not allow any minority. Now, you can MENTALLY make someone "not Israeli", but thats not as big of a problem as, for example when there is 5 Arabs to every Jew. The Arabs get angry about something, and POOF there goes the Jewish state JUST because of sheer numbers. The Arabs have shown they aren't afraid to kill innocents before, why would they in the future? So many of them are pro-violence, what would stop them? They hate us, they have always been taught to hate us. The only real solution would be to not allow them to be citizens and reside in Israel borders. Since so many leftist Israelis have a strangle-hold on the government, the Palestinains are going to legally steal around HALF of Israels land. After they have their own state, Arabs should be BANNED from Israel, because we all know, Jews won't be allowed in Israel, and if they are because of Palestinain image conciousness, then ever Jew who goes through Israel wont make it out the other side... Tell me I'm wrong, because I don't like this solution, but it seems the most logical, and the most promising.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
David Ricardo and Dr. Malthus -

We all assume hockeysticking. I suppose it's possible, but affluence seems to push birthrates in the other direction. It simply becomes too expensive to maintain a brood of seven + in the style to which....

Although I'll admit perhaps rational thought does not apply when it comes to trying to wipe out all the Jews of Israel.

Palestinian prosperity has dropped significantly in the past couple years - a more or less conscious decision made when the collective decision to pursue the intifada starting in 2000 was first pursued. I don't see any sign that Arab prosperity in Israel (including the disputed territories) will increase in the immediate future. Thus, even if this equation of affluence=lower birth rate applies to this region (very questionable), it's not applicable now.

[I am David]

Well I'v thought of a way, a civil way, I think, that Israel could get rid of the Arabs. However it would take a lot money, around the billions. What I would do with enough money was to persuade the Arabs in Israel to move, I would build very nice and large apartments deep in Jordan or Lebanon with all the modern facilities and give that to them for free in order to persuade them move. Basically, use money and benifits to persuade the Arabs to move, by giveing them better homes somewhere else for free.

This of course would cost a lot of money and I'm sure it sounds stupid to you, but to tell you the truth I don't care how much money or how stupid it sounds, what's important is saving Israel. And Israel will be consumed if nothing is done.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by I am David
What I would do with enough money was to persuade the Arabs in Israel to move, I would build very nice and large apartments deep in Jordan or Lebanon with all the modern facilities and give that to them for free in order to persuade them move.

But Jordan and Lebanon emphatically do not want them, even if they originally came from there.

[Philip]

At one time a certain nation was talking in similar terms about "The Jewish Problem." How convenient that so many of the terms that you will need for your discussion have already been fleshed out.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by cerulean


But Jordan and Lebanon emphatically do not want them, even if they originally came from there.

Exactly right...The Palestinians tried to take over governments in Jordan and other surrounding countires. That is why NO ONE wants them(no one being Arab states) and when Israel says that they dont want them, were racist and are imposing apartheid. Yo cant win with these arabs. Some aren't bad for example Turkey, but thats 1 country. The odds are againt Israel, unfortunately.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Yo cant win with these arabs. Some aren't bad for example Turkey, but thats 1 country. The odds are againt Israel, unfortunately.

Turks aren't Arabs, as they have been quick to point out on this forum. Israel and Turkey are historically allies and they have recently signed a water deal.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...turkey_water_4

I think Turkey is at risk for Islamic fundamentalism as well, however. As a single example, much of the society is secular, but apparently in the countryside, full cover for women is commonplace. I've read a few other articles that indicate to me that Turkey is vulnerable, although I believe the majority still want a secular state.

[Adversary2Arabs]

I was just reading that website you linked to and it said this:

"Israel's relationship with the large Islamic country is important to the Jewish state, especially amid 22 months of fighting with the Palestinians, which has caused tension in the Middle East and strained Israel's ties with Egypt and Jordan, with which it has signed peace treaties. "

[Vic]

Originally posted by cerulean
As a single example, much of the society is secular, but apparently in the countryside, full cover for women is commonplace.

It also commonplace in the Greek and parts of the Russian countryside, let alone among Orthodox Jews . This is a poor indicator as such. Turkey has fought many interior battles between the traditionally religious and the secular parts of the society, not all of them entirely fair on both sides. It's a long and complicated story. Besides, it's not just secular vs. fundementalist Turks. There are many Muslims, both traditional and what can be described as "modernized" (the closest analogy is Liberal/Reform Judaism), who do not pose any serious security risks

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Vic
It also commonplace in the Greek and parts of the Russian countryside, let alone among Orthodox Jews . This is a poor indicator as such. Turkey has fought many interior battles between the traditionally religious and the secular parts of the society, not all of them entirely fair on both sides. It's a long and complicated story. Besides, it's not just secular vs. fundementalist Turks. There are many Muslims, both traditional and what can be described as "modernized" (the closest analogy is Liberal/Reform Judaism), who do not pose any serious security risks

I do see a cultural expectation of women wearing long skirts and covered hair as being more reasonable than a legal requirement of women wearing chadors. In Turkey in the countryside there is only a cultural expectation of wearing chadors, but the Islamic fundamentalists seeking power want to make this a legal requirement.

My objection is not to any individual's religious or cultural or fashion choices, though, but to the legal and political enforcement of any particular standard.

Islamic fundamentalism is more of a risk in Turkey than it is in Greece or the Russian countryside. (Greece and Russia have their own particular problems, of course.) The Turkish government is aware of the fundamentalist danger - http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...x.html?related

It's not that the choice to be personally religious observant in terms of prayer, dress, and actions is itself dangerous. It's only when there is a desire to enforce these requirements on everyone else. Islamic fundamentalism and Islamist terrorism are intertwined - not the same, but they go together.

Americans are often criticized because they look too much at legal rights, rather than the actual cultural context. This is no doubt a valid argument when it comes to women in various situations around the world.

More on this when I finish reading Price of Honor.

[Teacake]

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Palestinian prosperity has dropped significantly in the past couple years - a more or less conscious decision made when the collective decision to pursue the intifada starting in 2000 was first pursued.

Another factor to this is that the wealthy pals moved to Europe and America.

As for the "right of return," this is a euphemism for Jordan, Lebonan, and Syria having the right to expel the pals from their state because they don't just don't want them, they want to get rid of all of the pals who are already there.

Anyhow, as for persuasion to leave Israel, they couldn't even be persuaded to take the deal Barak offered. How do you persuade a serial killer to stop killing when thats how they find pleasure? This group wants to claim all of Israel for theirs, this is their trohpy, how do you persuade people who are willing to use their children as bombs that any idea Israel offers should be considered? That is the Catch 22. Anything a Jew offers no matter how beneficial it is to a logiclly thinking person, is an insult and humilation to them.

[shoshannah]

Originally posted by I am David
The Arab problem, this is not to be ignored. Currently Israel is comprised of about 81% Jews and about 18% Arabs, an already disturbingly large ratio of Jews to Arabs.

[snip]

This is not good, Israel will soon cease to be a Jewish state, even if the Arabs become wealthier and slow their reproduction rate, it will always be a bit higher than the Jews, and this is too difficult and timely to do.

As a Jew living in Israel, I have to protest to the title you gave this thread.

However, I do think that you reaised two intresting issues:

• Having a growing hostile population inside Israel
• Haveing a Jewish state, and yet keeping it un-racist and Democratic

The first isue is more a short term one, while the 2nd is more alonger term one, as it will come into effect more over time, when the percentge of non-Jews in the population grows.

Having a growing hostile population inside Israel

I think the solution to this should have three elements:

[list=1][*]Making sure that the non-Jewish population has equl right not just in paper but in practice.[*]Creating a proper immigration minsitry, with clear standrads about who can immigrate and how, instead of the difficult situation we have today[*]Help create a free, democratic Palsetinian state, that will be alongside Israel, with proper borders and proper security measures.[/list=1]

Haveing a Jewish state, and yet keeping it un-racist and Democratic

It is muh harder for me to answer this one. On one hand, I recognise the need for a state as a refuuge place for Jews, even today. I have lived a few years outside Israel- both in France and in th USA, and I can see how important it is to have a Jewish state.

On the other hand, I want to live in a Democratic, multi-cultoal cuntry. I am worried about some clearly anti-democratic groups we have here in Israel.

The dilemma is, how to reconsile the two above.

My gut feeling would be that we need is:

• A consitution
• Every school that enjoys state founds, should have some sort of education for Democracy and about democracy
• A separatio of religion and state, while keeping some baseline aspects of a Jewish country (e.g., having all kitchens in state run instetuttions kosher, having the official rest-days Jewish (like in some countries they are Christican) etc)

But most improtant- we need public debate on thes issues. To bad much of it is delayed "until we have pace" :-(