Olmert's Plan To Split Jerusalem

[KettleWhistle]

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 20 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - Two senior Israeli politicians, including the prime minister's closest ally, talked openly Monday about dividing Jerusalem, signaling a possible shift in Israeli opinion about one of the Mideast's most contentious issues.

The dispute over Jerusalem has derailed negotiations in the past, and the latest comments come at a time when Israeli and Palestinian teams are trying to agree on principles guiding future peace talks.

The ideas raised by Israeli Vice Premier Haim Ramon still fall far short of Palestinian demands to establish their capital in all of the city's eastern sector, annexed by Israel after the 1967 Mideast War.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, meanwhile, told his parliament he will not be deterred from seeking a peace deal with the Palestinians. He said Israel has missed opportunities in the past, and warned that continued failure would mean a "demographic struggle steeped in blood and tears."

Olmert was unusually impassioned but short on specifics. He made no mention of Jerusalem.
Later Monday, Israeli and Palestinian teams met for the first time to start drafting a joint declaration of principles that would guide negotiators if peace talks were to resume after a seven-year freeze.

The document, which is to address the key disputes — borders, Jerusalem, Israeli settlements, Palestinian refugees — will be the centerpiece of a U.S.-hosted Mideast conference in November. Olmert's speech appeared to be a careful balancing act — sending an encouraging message to the Palestinians, while not giving his hardline critics at home too much ammunition by going into detail. His central theme was a pledge not to miss an opportunity to reach a long-elusive peace deal, even if it requires costly concessions. Olmert said Israelis will have to led go of some of the beliefs that "fed the national ethos for many years," a reference to giving up West Bank land.

Olmert praised Mahmoud Abbas, whom he has met six times since the spring, as a trustworthy partner, but at the same time portrayed the Palestinian president, known as Abu Mazen, as weak. "I know that the gap between the honest and fair intentions of Abu Mazen and (Palestinian Prime Minister) Salam Fayyad, and their ability to translate that into reality is troublesome and arouses concerns," Olmert said.
Olmert was heckled occasionally, but interruptions were mild for Israel's freewheeling parliament. "Is Jerusalem a dream?" legislator Reuven Rivlin shouted when Olmert, a former Jerusalem mayor, told parliament Israelis would have to forego some of their national dreams and aspirations.

It's not clear whether Olmert could muster the political support to push through a peace deal. His popularity dropped sharply after last summer's war against Hezbollah guerrillas in Lebanon, and he is the target of several corruption probes.

On Tuesday, he is to be questioned by police about allegations that he fraudulently bought a Jerusalem home well below market value, while serving as a Cabinet minister. Indictment would force him to step down.

Palestinian officials largely stayed out of Israel's internal debates Monday, including over Jerusalem.
Abbas adviser Nabil Abu Rdeneh took issue, though, with Olmert's reference to Abbas' purported weakness. "We hope that these statements are not meant to place obstacles in the way of the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations that started today," Abu Rdeneh said.

Earlier Monday, Olmert's closest ally, Ramon, raised the idea of a possible division of Jerusalem in interviews on the two main radio stations. Later in the day, Avigdor Lieberman, the leader of the hardline Israel Beitenu Party, a member of Olmert's coalition, told a news conference he is ready to hand over some Arab neighborhoods of the city.

The proposals of Ramon and Lieberman would fall far short of a Palestinian demand to set up their future capital in all of the Israeli-annexed eastern sector of the city. The eastern part contains the Old City, home to major Jewish, Muslim and Christian shrines.

Still, the public debate was remarkable. Ramon suggested that there's been a shift in the Israeli consensus, noting that the three main parties in Olmert's coalition all favor a division, and disagree only about where the line should be drawn. Israeli leaders have proposed possible solutions for the city in the past. Former Prime Minister Ehud Barak was harshly criticized for raising the idea of division in failed 2000 peace talks.

Ramon said that under his plan, Israel would not hand over the Old City and neighboring areas — known as the "holy basin" — but he spoke of a special arrangement in the Old City. He did not elaborate, but the term would suggest less than full Israeli sovereignty there.

[ShimonG]

I absolutely abhor calling for violence against a fellow jew. But, i think Olmert should be bi$ch-slapped for even thinking about it. Is he unaware of the tremendous sacrifices made to take it in the first place?

Not only will ceding Jerusalem not yield peace, but it will greatly energize islam to come after us.

[bararallu]

I personally would recommend building a 10 story trebuchet and slinging Olmert trans... Jordan

[wellofvow]

According to an article in Wednesday, October 10 Jerusalem Post, it's not only Jerusalem that will be handed over in this giveaway, won by so much blood and suffering of generations of Jews and Israelis.

Olmert is "considering" giving to this new terrorist state a corridor linking Gaza and the West Bank, which will cut Israel in two. Peres also favors this hashish-dream of the fanatic Yossi Beilin.

Do these geniuses realize that if they actually carry through this lunacy, in reality it means that Israel is handing over to Hamas the Dimona reactor?

"In exchange for the West Bank land, Israel is reportedly considering transferring to the Palestinians a strip of area between the Gaza Strip and West Bank to allow for a connection between them."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

[dayag]

According to an article in Wednesday, October 10 Jerusalem Post, it's not only Jerusalem that will be handed over in this giveaway, won by so much blood and suffering of generations of Jews and Israelis.

Olmert is "considering" giving to this new terrorist state a corridor linking Gaza and the West Bank, which will cut Israel in two. Peres also favors this hashish-dream of the fanatic Yossi Beilin.

Do these geniuses realize that if they actually carry through this lunacy, in reality it means that Israel is handing over to Hamas the Dimona reactor?

"In exchange for the West Bank land, Israel is reportedly considering transferring to the Palestinians a strip of area between the Gaza Strip and West Bank to allow for a connection between them."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

From what I have read in previous articles, the corridor will NOT be Palestinian sovereign territory. It is merely an access route to permit traffic between Gaza and the West Bank without having it mix with Israeli traffic. Would you rather have them driving through Beer Sheva to get where they are going?

[wellofvow]

From what I have read in previous articles, the corridor will NOT be Palestinian sovereign territory. It is merely an access route to permit traffic between Gaza and the West Bank without having it mix with Israeli traffic. Would you rather have them driving through Beer Sheva to get where they are going?

Hey, fella, in the heyday of high hopes after Oslo, Israeli roads in the Negev started being upgraded for the grande pacem that was going to be. Did you hear a peep out of me then? No.

In the reality of today, fella, any "access route to permit traffic between Gaza and the West Bank" is sheer madness. Who will supervise such "traffic"? Prevent them from taking off to commit terrorist acts? Prevent shipping munitions, rockets, nukes, terrorists, between Gaza and the West Bank? Would you build it underground? Overground? Have you seen how BEDOUIN drive, let alone Palestinian Arabs? Who is paying for this, anyhow? Have you put ANY thought into this?

And dude, only someone who really, really hates Arabs would force them to drive through Beer Sheva - LOL - Beer Sheva is chock-full of Russians who are very far right-wing, not to mention Beer Sheva traditionally being a Likud city for at least the four decades I have lived here.

sheeesh.

[dayag]

Hey, fella, in the heyday of high hopes after Oslo, Israeli roads in the Negev started being upgraded for the grande pacem that was going to be. Did you hear a peep out of me then? No.

In the reality of today, fella, any "access route to permit traffic between Gaza and the West Bank" is sheer madness. Who will supervise such "traffic"? Prevent them from taking off to commit terrorist acts? Prevent shipping munitions, rockets, nukes, terrorists, between Gaza and the West Bank? Would you build it underground? Overground? Have you seen how BEDOUIN drive, let alone Palestinian Arabs? Who is paying for this, anyhow? Have you put ANY thought into this?

And dude, only someone who really, really hates Arabs would force them to drive through Beer Sheva - LOL - Beer Sheva is chock-full of Russians who are very far right-wing, not to mention Beer Sheva traditionally being a Likud city for at least the four decades I have lived here.

sheeesh.

Just closing off the border isn't going to happen. We both know it would be madness to let them share our roads. So, it is going to have to be a highway with no exits and it would have to be walled off and heavily monitored.

If the Arabs want this kind of access to get from Gaza to the West Bank, then they are going to have to get some of their oil-rich friends, the Europeans, or the Americans to pay for it.

[Mil]

Don't wary. Nobody is going to give Jerusalem to the Arabs. Neither will there be a road connecting the two parts of Palestine. Most likely a bunch of settlements will be removed and West Bank will become like Gaza. The big wall will become even bigger.

[farmall]

"Beer Sheva is chock-full of Russians who are very far right-wing"

Interesting. What is the best way, in your opinion, of attracting as many right-wing immigrants as possible? Which nationality is most useful politically?

[KettleWhistle]

"Beer Sheva is chock-full of Russians who are very far right-wing"

Interesting. What is the best way, in your opinion, of attracting as many right-wing immigrants as possible? Which nationality is most useful politically?

Wellofvow's statement is utter nonsense that stems from deep misunderstanding. The Russians are not "very right wing". There are all kinds of people being brushed off under this "Russian" identity. Most of them aren't even Russian, they are just Russian speakers. Those of them who are Russian, for the most part don't really care one way or the other--they came to Israel for the money.

The Jews from FSU are not "very right wing" either. It's a mixed bag or everyone from welfare moochers and old people who just can't learn Hebrew and so live in the Russian cultural ghetto, dynamic and fully adopted/assimilated and ambitious people who want to earn their success by either working hard or being smart or both, to everyone in-between. What is true about this Jewish population is their love for the homeland. This is being misrepresented by various political demagogues as hatred of Arabs. But it's not hatred, stupid!

I would say the most normal "right-wingers" are Jews from Argentina. They are usually secular, patriotic, educated, and there isn't enough of them to create a cultural ghetto that prevents adaptation to the local life and culture.

[KettleWhistle]

From what I have read in previous articles, the corridor will NOT be Palestinian sovereign territory. It is merely an access route to permit traffic between Gaza and the West Bank without having it mix with Israeli traffic. Would you rather have them driving through Beer Sheva to get where they are going?

The corridor is a slippery slope. That's reason enough to not let it materialize. More so, who are the Arabs to dictate the terms? This is the problem here, they say something and the people in Israel actually listen. Jews are the winning side in this war, we are the ones to dictate the terms, not them. If they can't commute, so what? That's their problem, not ours.

And we should not be trying to solve their problem. We have enough of our own. As my mother always said, "don't touch the dreck, you'll get dirty."

[bararallu]

Israel attracts all sorts... some religious, some economic some political, most refugees some immigrants. Most Jews, some, well you see what we get in our southern border. If the Christians and Druse of Lebanon were situated in the south rather than Beirut, we would probably take most of them in as well over time. We have done so for a good many of the SLA. Some of whom were even Shia. LOL.

The Russian speaking Jews and North Africans are the majority if the "right wing." Then again most of Israel is right wing! It's hard to believe from our politics but yes, most of Israel is right wing. That doesnt say much tough does it. There are other factors. Not the least of which is that the voting public has little to say about state affairs. Alternatively, the conniving mechanizations of the old Leftist guard control a great deal of the government, the Supreme Court and other critical institutions, since the inception of the state. They built and staff institutions to suit themselves not a conservative government. Even if one gets elected into office. I ask you how many "unity governments" has the United States or Britain have had? I say the answer is in and around, oh how about zero. In Israel they are par for the course... this is endemic, a corruption on the structural level. Right in front of everyones faces.

Plus, just like the US, there is infighting even amongst the conservatives. We need a serious revolution in government (some ideas: abandon the parliamentary system altogether, create an actual state constitution, outlaw extra-national judiciary, secularize and privatize virtually everything, cut the dole, immediately if not sooner, to the useless slackards; hell make voting citizenship (vs legal residency) contingent on military service and abolish the draft.)

[KettleWhistle]

Then again most of Israel is right wing!

How do you define "right wing"?

[bararallu]

Operationally.

The people who, if they vote, they vote for Israel Beteinu, Likud, NRP, or nearly as often vote against: Labor and Meretz, whatever their option du jure.

What sub-ethnicities comprise these? I guess a lot more then just Jews from the FSU and Morocco. But I'd say even nutty and extortionist religious parities will toe the line to keep their rather conservative, pro-Israel, membership, example being Shas.

If we speak philosophically, there is a lot more nuance to "right wing", and the Israeli conservative tent may be too small to fit everyone into it. We have our versions of social conservatives, albeit unlike they are in the US, ours are concerned with funding their little social programs not always imposing blanket religious agenda on everyone, well most of the time anyway. We have our economic conservatives as well, but most are divisible by national security conservatism.

[KettleWhistle]

The electorate changes its course every few years. I don't think you could say that most are right wing based on that. I also wouldn't call Israel Beitenu and Shas right wing. They talk alot, but do nothing as far as security and long-term territorial and cultural integrity of the country is concerned. Israel Beitenu really cares for little other than political power, and will support anything that keeps them afloat, while feeding rhetoric to the electorate. Shas was an Oslo supporter, and only cares for continuing welfare to the orthodox. On all other issues they support the government, regardless of who is in the government.