Can Israel be a Jewish state and a Democracy? -Your take

[Adversary2Arabs]

A democracy cannot be a true Jewish state because, well, Judaism has deep roots in monarchies and theocracys - from the time of Saul(when it went from just a theocracy with a governing body to a theocracy with a monarch). Also, it depends on what your definition of Jewish is. Whether it be the Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, or Christian ("We're the real Jews"lol - no wonder theres a lot of Cristain comedians.) It should be the Orthodox view and is to a certain extent, but its becoming more and more Reform as time progressed, which is a sad mistake.

Shabbat Shalom.

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
A democracy cannot be a true Jewish state because, well, Judaism has deep roots in monarchies and theocracys - from the time of Saul(when it went from just a theocracy with a governing body to a theocracy with a monarch). Also, it depends on what your definition of Jewish is. Whether it be the Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, or Christian ("We're the real Jews"lol - no wonder theres a lot of Cristain comedians.) It should be the Orthodox view and is to a certain extent, but its becoming more and more Reform as time progressed, which is a sad mistake.

Shabbat Shalom.

I don't see why a Jewish state cannot be a democracy. Theocracy or Monarchy are political systems, not cultural or religious attributes. Judaism has deep roots in monarchies and theocracies because it is old. One can say the same thing about Christianity and Islam - and possibly about other old world religions as well (I don't know enough about them to say so definitively).

Just as it changed after the destruction of the Temple, Judaism is now being challenged to deal with the modern political and cultural norms. The key to any religion's long term survival is its ability to adapt to the prevailing norms as they change. Judaism, up to now, has shown itself eminently capable of this type of adaptation.

Modern day Israel has been around just over 50 years: historically speaking, a blink of an eye. This is hardly sufficient time to adapt the 3500 year old religion and culture to the new reality. This is a profound change: the last time such a major dislocation occurred was nearly 2000 years ago, with the destruction of the Temple and then Diaspora!

What we are observing today is the deep discussion of the very meaning of our culture and civilization. Growing pains are named that for a reason: they hurt. For myself, I prefer these heated discussions and debates over any "peaceful", sheep-like acceptance of whatever "fate" or "karma", or "G-d's Will" from my people.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke


I don't see why a Jewish state cannot be a democracy. Theocracy or Monarchy are political systems, not cultural or religious attributes. Judaism has deep roots in monarchies and theocracies because it is old. One can say the same thing about Christianity and Islam - and possibly about other old world religions as well (I don't know enough about them to say so definitively).

Just as it changed after the destruction of the Temple, Judaism is now being challenged to deal with the modern political and cultural norms. The key to any religion's long term survival is its ability to adapt to the prevailing norms as they change. Judaism, up to now, has shown itself eminently capable of this type of adaptation.

Modern day Israel has been around just over 50 years: historically speaking, a blink of an eye. This is hardly sufficient time to adapt the 3500 year old religion and culture to the new reality. This is a profound change: the last time such a major dislocation occurred was nearly 2000 years ago, with the destruction of the Temple and then Diaspora!

What we are observing today is the deep discussion of the very meaning of our culture and civilization. Growing pains are named that for a reason: they hurt. For myself, I prefer these heated discussions and debates over any "peaceful", sheep-like acceptance of whatever "fate" or "karma", or "G-d's Will" from my people.

You know what..................I agree. Thanks.

[eyl]

Originally posted by Vic
There was once a nice Jewish girl who met a nice Russian boy. The result was an equally nice half-Jewish, half-Russian girl who met a nice Jewish boy. The result is writing this.

At least until the mid-90ies I could have recieved full Israeli citizenship on the spot without ever having heard of the Torah, just by presenting my granny's birth certificate. I would be free to define myself as a militant atheist without any Israeli state institution doubting my Jewishness.

Now let's change my family history a bit. There was once a nice Russian girl who met a nice Jewish boy. The rest remains the same. I would in this case be very much the same person, but this tiny detail would make a world of difference should this imaginary version of myself try to immigrate to Israel. I do, in fact, practice Judaism, if in a rather lax way. But my mind balks at this, and I am not the only one. If, and only if, religious criteria are worth being preserved at all for what is the essentially secular act of awarding citizenship status, why not adopt these of Reform Judaism? They make much more sense.

You can receive Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return as the grandson of a Jew, regardless of that Jew's gender. The gender matters in determining whether you yourself are a Jew or not (and the Orthodox definition depends on the mother, not the grandmother; in your case you're a Jew because your mother was a Jew, because HER mother was a Jew; the children of your maternal uncle, OTOH, would be Jewish only if your uncle married a Jew), but not citizenship.

[Vic]

Originally posted by eyl
You can receive Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return as the grandson of a Jew, regardless of that Jew's gender. The gender matters in determining whether you yourself are a Jew or not (and the Orthodox definition depends on the mother, not the grandmother; in your case you're a Jew because your mother was a Jew, because HER mother was a Jew; the children of your maternal uncle, OTOH, would be Jewish only if your uncle married a Jew), but not citizenship.

Sorry, I haven't expressed myself clearly. Both "cases" would recieve citizenship, but only the first, the real one, would be considered automatically "Jewish". This is what makes little sense to me, since it would be virtually one and the same person in the real world.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Vic
Sorry, I haven't expressed myself clearly. Both "cases" would recieve citizenship, but only the first, the real one, would be considered automatically "Jewish". This is what makes little sense to me, since it would be virtually one and the same person in the real world.

It would be one in the same person, but Israel is "a" and "the" Jewish State. Therefore it uses the Jewish definition. But then Reform and probably Conservative Jews came and once they obtained legal citizenship helped to change the definition of Jew, or at least they helped to recognize (partially) the views of Reform and some Conservative peoples. (That of patrinial decent of "Jewishness").

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


It would be one in the same person, but Israel is "a" and "the" Jewish State. Therefore it uses the Jewish definition. But then Reform and probably Conservative Jews came and once they obtained legal citizenship helped to change the definition of Jew, or at least they helped to recognize (partially) the views of Reform and some Conservative peoples. (That of patrinial decent of "Jewishness").

This does not get much play in the English language press, for some reason, but in the Russian publications there is a lot of info on this subject.

Briefly, the reason the rules were adjusted is the Russian Jews. Since the last name comes through the father, if a person's paternal grandfather was Jewish, the grandchild will carry a Jewish last name. It may or may not cause the passport to say that the person is Jewish, but it will certainly make it plain as day to all and sundry that the person has Jewish roots - therefore, making them subject to gross antisemitism.

Intermarriage is a very common scenario in Russia. Most of my cousins, in fact, both in Israel and here, are children of one Jewish and one non-Jewish parent. I would like to mention that all but one of my cousins (out of dozens), identify themselves as Jewish, know the history and culture of the Jewish people, and the Israeli bunch is proudly serving in the IDF, with their non-Jewish mothers cheering them on (while freaking out inside, of course! )

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke


This does not get much play in the English language press, for some reason, but in the Russian publications there is a lot of info on this subject.

Briefly, the reason the rules were adjusted is the Russian Jews. Since the last name comes through the father, if a person's paternal grandfather was Jewish, the grandchild will carry a Jewish last name. It may or may not cause the passport to say that the person is Jewish, but it will certainly make it plain as day to all and sundry that the person has Jewish roots - therefore, making them subject to gross antisemitism.

Intermarriage is a very common scenario in Russia. Most of my cousins, in fact, both in Israel and here, are children of one Jewish and one non-Jewish parent. I would like to mention that all but one of my cousins (out of dozens), identify themselves as Jewish, know the history and culture of the Jewish people, and the Israeli bunch is proudly serving in the IDF, with their non-Jewish mothers cheering them on (while freaking out inside, of course! )

But then my question is - if their parents love Israel and Jews so much, why not convert? I know for some people they beieve in their religion so much that they wouldn't but in that case, they wouldn't have married a Jew then, because "Jews don't go to heaven." - Christianity

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


But then my question is - if their parents love Israel and Jews so much, why not convert? I know for some people they beieve in their religion so much that they wouldn't but in that case, they wouldn't have married a Jew then, because "Jews don't go to heaven." - Christianity

Because religion is something that you either have or don't have. It hinges on a belief in G-d. Many of us either don't believe at all, or don't know. Religious conversion under such circumstances would be dishonest, wouldn't you say?

The lack of religion does not stop us from identifying with Jewish nation and culture. Many of my cousins are risking their lives in defense of their people. Isn't it unfair, at the end of the day, to tell them these are not their people they are literally dying to save?

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke


Because religion is something that you either have or don't have. It hinges on a belief in G-d. Many of us either don't believe at all, or don't know. Religious conversion under such circumstances would be dishonest, wouldn't you say?

The lack of religion does not stop us from identifying with Jewish nation and culture. Many of my cousins are risking their lives in defense of their people. Isn't it unfair, at the end of the day, to tell them these are not their people they are literally dying to save?

Yes it WOULD be dishonoest. But they still can become Reform Jewish no matter how distant from real Judaism it really is. In Reform Judaism, believing in G-d is optonal - like the rest of the mitzvot.

[Hope]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
A democracy cannot be a true Jewish state because, well, Judaism has deep roots in monarchies and theocracys - from the time of Saul(when it went from just a theocracy with a governing body to a theocracy with a monarch).
Shabbat Shalom.

Shavua Tov.

Well Israel is a democracy and a Jewish state. It exists and was established to include all levels of Judaism by Jews whose authenticity you probably doubt.

If you think that Israel isn't a "true" Jewish state then why do you support it?

Also, it depends on what your definition of Jewish is. It should be the Orthodox view and is to a certain extent, but its becoming more and more Reform as time progressed, which is a sad mistake.

Why should Judaism be determined by the Orthodox view because you like it? Maybe the US is becoming more reformed but Israel isn't. Most of us here are pretty pleased that people are allowed to choose their own level of religiousness and still retain a strong Jewish identity.

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


Yes it WOULD be dishonoest. But they still can become Reform Jewish no matter how distant from real Judaism it really is. In Reform Judaism, believing in G-d is optonal - like the rest of the mitzvot.

I am not sure that belief in G-d is optional in Reform Judaism (I know there are other movements where this is true though...)

I don't really know why they wouldn't convert into that kind of offshoot - maybe, they don't feel that it's necessary in Israel, where they are already easily identifiable as Jews? Actually, here in the US, we have a Passover Seder at my parents' house, even if it falls on a weekday, with most of my family that lives in this area (some drive 1 1/2 hour each way to be there, and my trip is 45 minutes each way). We also go to the synagogue nearby for the High Holidays.

One of my uncles' wife, a Russian/Ukranian woman, has helped organize an annual Yom Hashoah memorial event at this Russian Center she goes to in her community (this is in Philadelphia. All I know is that it's for non-Jews - I am not sure exactly what it is...)

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Hope


Shavua Tov.

Well Israel is a democracy and a Jewish state. It exists and was established to include all levels of Judaism by Jews whose authenticity you probably doubt.

If you think that Israel isn't a "true" Jewish state then why do you support it?



Why should Judaism be determined by the Orthodox view because you like it? Maybe the US is becoming more reformed but Israel isn't. Most of us here are pretty pleased that people are allowed to choose their own level of religiousness and still retain a strong Jewish identity.

Because I like it? No, because that is what the original nation Israel was based on. And if you think that it's wrong, then why should Israel be in the land of ancient Israel? Why not in China or Mexico? Because that is the land promised by G-d. Doing what you want is like getting prepaid for a job you do, and then just not doing it. G-d gave us Israel. He also gave us Torah, and commanded us to follow it. You take Israel, but reject Torah? Give me a break.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke


I am not sure that belief in G-d is optional in Reform Judaism (I know there are other movements where this is true though...)

I don't really know why they wouldn't convert into that kind of offshoot - maybe, they don't feel that it's necessary in Israel, where they are already easily identifiable as Jews? Actually, here in the US, we have a Passover Seder at my parents' house, even if it falls on a weekday, with most of my family that lives in this area (some drive 1 1/2 hour each way to be there, and my trip is 45 minutes each way). We also go to the synagogue nearby for the High Holidays.

One of my uncles' wives, a Russian/Ukranian woman, has helped organize an annual Yom Hashoah memorial event at this Russian Center she goes to in her community (this is in Philadelphia. All I know is that it's for non-Jews - I am not sure exactly what it is...)

Just found this for you: "That is, they[Reform Jews] will believe in one or no Gods, and their concept of God, if believed in, may well differ significantly from the omnipotent model popularised in Orthodox Judaism and other religions."

FROM http://www.actjewish.org.au/reform_judaism.htm

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


Just found this for you: "That is, they[Reform Jews] will believe in one or no Gods, and their concept of God, if believed in, may well differ significantly from the omnipotent model popularised in Orthodox Judaism and other religions."

FROM http://www.actjewish.org.au/reform_judaism.htm

Thanks, A2A! I will check this out further as well...