Can Israel be a Jewish state and a Democracy? -Your take

[Reffo]

no group should be above criticism as long as that criticism is legitimate and not hate inspired

You are spot on. I agree with this sentence of yours 100%. However there is criticism and there is criticism, if you know what I mean. And there are plenty of criticsms that are levelled against Israel on a daily basis, which ARE definitely antisemitic in nature. Whether the person levelling the criticism is antisemitic him or herself or not, is not the issue. The criticism itself can be antisemitic. To illustrate that point, I urge you to read Sylvia's very thoughtful response. I urge you to think about it because her response was definitely not a knee jerk reaction. She was just making a point by talking about an Australia that is not as she described (I know because I am an Australian too). She just wanted to illustrate that irrational and ignorant criticism levelled without research is not valid. Moreover that type of criticism is antisemitic and unwarranted ...

I also urge you to think about Aliyah's response because he makes a valid point too. Only you know whether you are motivated by antisemitism or not when you criticize Israel. But depending on the criticism that you make, the criticism itself may be antisemitic no matter how much you protest about it. In fact, some people try to disguise their hatred of Jews by criticising Israel in unreasonable ways. And when someone else accuses them of antisemitism, they try to deflect it by the counter criticism that Israel should not be above criticism. That's true and many Jews prove it by being the harshest critics of Israel. Most of those Jews are NOT antisemites and some of the criticisms of Israel are valid. Although some of the Jews too, who criticize Israel, ARE antisemitic. We call them self hating Jews. Just as there are some self hating Australians who are driven by misguided ideologies.

[Davosown]

Sylvia, in fact my argument would be that you are spot on. I am not naieve enough to think Australia, or its government are perfect. We. European Austrlians, have done much in our brief time here that we cannot undo, we must focus on making amends though. As I said no one should be above criticism, this includes myself. My issue is when anyone faced with criticism, and admittedly I encounter this most from "ultranationalists" in Australia, people will claim, as my friend did, that it is based on hate. I personally find any hate-speech incredibly offensive which is why being accused of making a claim based on hate unnerved me so much, I guess. Yet I still believe my argument was valid criticism (That I believe Israel had done wrong in deporting some refugees, as I believe the Australian government's treatment of refugees is wrong).

I would like to thank each of you for taking the time to respond, it has given me some thoughts to digest.

[Reffo]

Sylvia, in fact my argument would be that you are spot on. I am not naieve enough to think Australia, or its government are perfect. We. European Austrlians, have done much in our brief time here that we cannot undo, we must focus on making amends though. As I said no one should be above criticism, this includes myself. My issue is when anyone faced with criticism, and admittedly I encounter this most from "ultranationalists" in Australia, people will claim, as my friend did, that it is based on hate. I personally find any hate-speech incredibly offensive which is why being accused of making a claim based on hate unnerved me so much, I guess. Yet I still believe my argument was valid criticism (That I believe Israel had done wrong in deporting some refugees, as I believe the Australian government's treatment of refugees is wrong).

I would like to thank each of you for taking the time to respond, it has given me some thoughts to digest.

As an Australian, I disagree with the proposition that Sylvia is spot on. She ostensibly made the point that Australia practices apartheid against native Australians. That is simply not true. Nor is it true that Australian Christians are supremacists. But then again, I doubt that Sylvia really meant those accusations. She just held it up as a mirror to illustrate the type of over the top accusations made against Israel, by some, on a daily basis. And those accusations certainly ARE antisemitic. Or anti Australian if levelled unjustly against Australia.

I too would like to thank you for posting your thoughts on this forum. For what it's worth, you don't sound to me to be an antisemite. Although I am sure that you and I would disagree about many things.

[Sylvia]

Interestingly enough, I find the claim of criticism of Israel being labeled "anti-antisemitism" to be an alibi used by Israel's detractors to shield themselves from counter-arguments against their claims. In other words, they are immune from their propaganda being criticized or dissected because they will just accuse anyone who doesn't tow their line of throwing the "antisemitism" card around indiscriminately.

You are totally right of course and we all have encountered that phenomenon in threads where no accusation of antisemitism was leveled. Using "I know I'll be called an antisemite" has become a mandatory preamble to anything antisemites spout.

There are, however, other more subtle variants to that form of deception. Worse yet, are those slanderers who use "the antisemite's preamble" to deflect attention from the fact that their utterances are in effect, purely evil - antisemitism having become banal (in the sense Hannah Arendt gave the word) - and therefore being called an antisemite doesn't sound as bad.

Moreover, there are those who routinely use "the antisemite's preamble" to actively contribute to the banalization of antisemitism - and we know where the kind of climate it has generated led the European Jews before.

[Sylvia]

She was just making a point by talking about an Australia that is not as she described (I know because I am an Australian too). She just wanted to illustrate that irrational and ignorant criticism levelled without research is not valid.

From Davosown's post below, I don't think he paid attention to the very important distinction you make. The charge that Israel "is deporting refugees" is irrational and ignorant criticism leveled without research which illustrates perfectly the evil slanderer and lier category who wants to hide his evil nature behind a fruitless argument on "accusations of accusation of antisemitism", which is still palatable in our days and times.

[Sylvia]

Sylvia, in fact my argument would be that you are spot on.

So where is the BDS campaign against "apartheid Australia"? Please fill me in.

Yet I still believe my argument was valid criticism (That I believe Israel had done wrong in deporting some refugees, as I believe the Australian government's treatment of refugees is wrong).

That makes my criticism of your person valid as well (That I believe you have done wrong in beating your spouse and abusing children). The basis of my criticism of you is just as solid as your criticism of Israel ddeporting "refugees". Had they been refugees, they would have had a residence permit (like the refugees of Darfur do many of whom are students in our universities) and it would have been legally impossible to deport them.

[Davosown]

"As an Australian, I disagree with the proposition that Sylvia is spot on. She ostensibly made the point that Australia practices apartheid against native Australians. That is simply not true. Nor is it true that Australian Christians are supremacists. But then again, I doubt that Sylvia really meant those accusations. She just held it up as a mirror to illustrate the type of over the top accusations made against Israel, by some, on a daily basis. And those accusations certainly ARE antisemitic. Or anti Australian if levelled unjustly against Australia."

I interpreted her statement as a metaphoric rather than literal state, though Australia certainly has many blemishes in its short history.

"That makes my criticism of your person valid as well (That I believe you have done wrong in beating your spouse and abusing children). The basis of my criticism of you is just as solid as your criticism of Israel ddeporting "refugees". Had they been refugees, they would have had a residence permit (like the refugees of Darfur do many of whom are students in our universities) and it would have been legally impossible to deport them."

Of course, I believe no one can be above criticism even myself though I think any criticism is subjective and more often based on opinion rather than an objective understanding of everything.

I am at fault for referring to them as refugees, I am falling into "Australian mediaspeak". My criticism was based on an article which stated that the Israeli government had deported a number of people seeking refugee status, rather than refugees (My error and for that I apologise). I am critical of any government that seeks to deport people seeking refugee status, especially my own.

[Reffo]

Sylvia, in fact my argument would be that you are spot on.

So where is the BDS campaign against "apartheid Australia"? Please fill me in

This question of Sylvia definitely must not be ignored. It mustn't be ignored because it illustrates the hypocrisy of many of Israel's critics. Some of whom ARE motivated by antisemitism because of the double standards that they display against Israel.

Another case in point is the selective outrage that they display when Israel RESPONDS to Arab provocations. For example, Sylvia lives in Sderot and she is one of a million Israelis who has been subjected to rocket fire from Gaza for about a decade. The silence from usual critics of Israel has been deafening. Yet they come alive whenever Israel responds to that rocket fire. I have seen some idiots in Australia (that's the only valid way that I can think of describing them), who wore red T-Shirts displaying solidarity with Palestinian Arabs after Israel's Operation Cast Lead in 2008. Why weren't those same people wearing their hearts on their sleeves when the rockets fall onto the heads of Israeli civilians from Gaza? I suspect because many of those people ARE antisemites.

[Davosown]

This question of Sylvia definitely must not be ignored. It mustn't be ignored because it illustrates the hypocrisy of many of Israel's critics. Some of whom ARE motivated by antisemitism because of the double standards that they display against Israel.

This is something I cannot answer as whilst there are several boycott movements within Australia, and possibly abroad, they are fractious and woefully disorganised. However, Australia's governments over the last decade or so have been trying to reduce the differences between indigenous and non-indigenous Australia (not always doing it well though). Personally I do think it is sad that the international, and national, community of Australia has not done more for true equality in Australia to be achieved.

As to the question of response to Arab provocation, I find it distasteful that there is a need to respond militarily, though I acknowledge such a need exists. I do not like the fact that violence is used in a matter which I believe, or rather hope, can be solved diplomatically. This is not blaming Israel or responding, as defense of their people is paramount merely a whimsical desire to have violence, from both sides ended. I cannot presume to know what it is like to live in an area where the risk of attack is a possibility but I accept that above all we, as people, will do what we feel we must to live safely.

[Andromeda]

History, Rabbis would place very strict social norms on their people to ensure continuous Jewish prosperity and advancement. The Rabbis would dictate policy, and the rest were expected to obey, not to debate the issue and vote on it. I don't support the past's monarchist system; rather, for the Jews, I support direct democracy, which requires every Jew to be highly intelligent.

China has no problem sterilizing their undesirables and dictating who can and can't reproduce. So, why does Israel let their undesirables reproduce? It's a quite simple policy: if you are not Ashkenazi, you should not be allowed to reproduce. When people talk about Jewish success, they mean Ashkenazi success. The great average IQ differences between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, and Falashas is well documented.

[Reffo]

History, Rabbis would place very strict social norms on their people to ensure continuous Jewish prosperity and advancement. The Rabbis would dictate policy, and the rest were expected to obey, not to debate the issue and vote on it. I don't support the past's monarchist system; rather, for the Jews, I support direct democracy, which requires every Jew to be highly intelligent.

China has no problem sterilizing their undesirables and dictating who can and can't reproduce. So, why does Israel let their undesirables reproduce? It's a quite simple policy: if you are not Ashkenazi, you should not be allowed to reproduce. When people talk about Jewish success, they mean Ashkenazi success. The great average IQ differences between Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, and Falashas is well documented.

No, No, No and more No!!!! 100% No!!! That's what the Nazis stood for.

[dayag]

No, No, No and more No!!!! 100% No!!! That's what the Nazis stood for.

Yes, calling for the eradication by whatever means of our Sephardi, Mizrachi, and Beta Yisrael brothers [or any other ethnic group] is beyond the pale.