Can Israel be a Jewish state and a Democracy? -Your take

[Hope]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


Because I like it? No, because that is what the original nation Israel was based on. And if you think that it's wrong, then why should Israel be in the land of ancient Israel? Why not in China or Mexico? Because that is the land promised by G-d. Doing what you want is like getting prepaid for a job you do, and then just not doing it. G-d gave us Israel. He also gave us Torah, and commanded us to follow it. You take Israel, but reject Torah? Give me a break.

Israel of today is not the Israel of the bible nor was it established to be so. It was established as a haven for all types of Jews. We claimed Israel because of historical, archeological facts and a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for centuries. The inspiration might have come from the bible but nothing more.

You might on a personal level reject Jews who don't fit into a rigid mold but in modern Israel they are accepted.

Yes I have taken Israel as it is for over 20 yrs. by choice and will continue to do so and practice Judaism any way I feel like because I live in the Jewish Democracy of Israel.

I still don't understand why you support the modern state of Israel?

[Vic]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
But then my question is - if their parents love Israel and Jews so much, why not convert? I know for some people they beieve in their religion so much that they wouldn't but in that case, they wouldn't have married a Jew then, because "Jews don't go to heaven." - Christianity

I have tried to describe it in my post # 44. For anyone with many Jewish ancestors, but unfortunately with the wrong ones, it is an emotionally very trying experience. And, then, again, being Jewish or Israeli does not equal being Orthodox Jewish for everyone. Why be forced into what amounts for such people to a farcical procedure?

[Vic]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Just found this for you: "That is, they[Reform Jews] will believe in one or no Gods, and their concept of God, if believed in, may well differ significantly from the omnipotent model popularised in Orthodox Judaism and other religions."

FROM http://www.actjewish.org.au/reform_judaism.htm

This is plain honesty to me. Religious beliefs are in reality hard to pin down. The strongest zealotry often conceals a void where the quintessence of faith should be. This

If a Jew loses faith in God for whatever reason, they do not cease to be Jewish at that instant

is a very humane approach, permitting community members to talk openly about their doubts. The result can be a much more genuine religious allegiance than the one often observed in the stronger ritualized, almost mechanical forms of worship, where you either (are expected to declare that you) believe in G'd or get out.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Hope


Israel of today is not the Israel of the bible nor was it established to be so. It was established as a haven for all types of Jews. We claimed Israel because of historical, archeological facts and a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for centuries. The inspiration might have come from the bible but nothing more.

You might on a personal level reject Jews who don't fit into a rigid mold but in modern Israel they are accepted.

Yes I have taken Israel as it is for over 20 yrs. by choice and will continue to do so and practice Judaism any way I feel like because I live in the Jewish Democracy of Israel.

I still don't understand why you support the modern state of Israel?

I support Israel because it is a Jewish state and has the worlds largest concentration of Jews. You obviously just read a few posts from days ago and then post yourself. You seem to have missed a few key posts. And I don't "reject Jews who don't fit into a rigid mold". I accept all Jews as Jews.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Vic
This is plain honesty to me. Religious beliefs are in reality hard to pin down. The strongest zealotry often conceals a void where the quintessence of faith should be. Thisis a very humane approach, permitting community members to talk openly about their doubts. The result can be a much more genuine religious allegiance than the one often observed in the stronger ritualized, almost mechanical forms of worship, where you either (are expected to declare that you) believe in G'd or get out.

In Orthodox Judaism, you don't have to believe in G-d to be Jewish. You can believe in Christianity, Islam, etc. and still be Jewish from the Orthodox perspective. You just cannot be Orthodox Jewish and believe these things. If you are born to a Jewish mother, or convert to Judaism, you are from then on and forever Jewish. It's your job to stay and maintain the Mitzvot.

I think that children brough up in non-Orthodox houses should be given the benefit of the doubt and shouldn't be punished by G-d when he says that you haven't follow His Law. The children brought up secular/Christian (while by Jewish definition is really Jewish)/Reform/etc. are taught believing this is true.

In the case of Palestnians who are brought up believing that hating and killing Jews is not only justified, but a good thing, don't recieve my sympathy because, unless they have serious mental defects should know that murder is murder. IMO, it's up to them whether they want to kill Jews or not. Obviously, not all Palestinains/Arabs kill Jews or think its right, so why do some?

[Mediocrates]

In Reconstructionist Judaism one need not believe in God. Depending on your Orthodox shul they may either assume you do and not even ask or have a don't ask don't tell policy. It depends; there's Orthodox and then there's Orthodox. Perhaps you're familiar with neo Orthodox (Orthodox Union?).

[Vic]

Medioctrates, just like with "conversions":

you don't have to believe in G-d

or

you don't have to declare that you believe in G-d?

Nearly the same all over again. Forcing people in a game of pretence and self-denial, IMO, for the sake of conventions. What's the point?

[Mediocrates]

you don't have to declare that you believe in G-d?

Not strictly speaking, no. You go through the process, go up on the Bima, read from the Book of Esther, perform a few other prayers, immerse in the Mikvah in front of the Bet Din, answer a few questions about the commandments, make an effort to keep kosher and that's about it.

[Jeremie]

Israel is a Jewish State and a democraty for already 54 years...

We vote freely and we face antisemitism all together.

I admit that the proportionnal at the Knesset makes a lot of problems, it gives a lot of power to small structures.. But it's obviously a consequence of TOO MUCH democracy, it will be solved one day, like it was in many countries.

We can be a free country, created for the jews but opened to eveybody, and opened for the arabs who wants to leave in peace with us... But if we do that, we HAVE to be the majority if we want to keep it as a jewish country:

Make your Alyah and make babies, be in love with Israel and with your familly in the same time and at the same place.

Jeremie

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I support Israel because it is a Jewish state and has the worlds largest concentration of Jews.

Correction: Israel is the second largest concentration of Jews, with just over 5 milion. There are twice as many Jews in the US.

[Mediocrates]

No there aren't 10 million of us here. A little less than 6

http://www.wjc.org.il/wjcbook/chartmap.htm


Here are the major centers

New York 1,900,000
Los Angeles, California 585,000
Miami, Florida 535,000
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 315,000
Chicago, Illinois 250,000
Boston, Massachusetts 228,000
San Francisco, California 210,000
Washington, DC 165,000
Baltimore, Maryland 100,000
Detroit, Michigan 95,000
Rockland County, New York 83,000
Orange Country, California 75,000
San Diego, California 70,000
Atlanta, Georgia 67,000
Cleveland, Ohio 65,000
St. Louis, Missouri 53,000
Phoenix, Arizona 50,000
Denver, Colorado 46,000
Houston, Texas 42,000
Dallas, Texas 35,000
Seattle, Washington 29,000
Milwaukee, Wisconsin 28,000
Hartford, Connecticut 26,000

[Vic]

AFAIK, the WJC statistics include only registered members of recognized Jewish communities. In Europe, the proportion of "official" Jews to Jews eligible for Israeli citizenship is estimated roughly at 1:2. If the same applies to the US, then it would make about 10 million.

[Mediocrates]

I think many of those other 4 million would be suprised to learn they are Jewish. They may not have ever been self identified that way. I'm not sure at all what WJC thinks is an official Jew. Elvis was Jewish but never learned anything about it or practiced. Louis Armstrong grew up as the 'adopted' son of an Orthodox family and learned and studied and probably identified with Judaism as much as most Jews I know.

No one really knows what the numbers look like.

It is an enormous tragedy that 60-70% of American Jews are unaffilliated, that no matter how tenuous their own relationship they can't find someplace to roost. From the most liberal Reform to radical Reconstructionist to mainline Conservative to Orthodox, neo Orthodox and Lubavitch and everything in between....

That is why I whole heartedly support Lubavitch; because they have outreach to other Jews. It is absolutely imperative that we welcome these people back in and offer them a supportive non judgmental Jewish home. UAHC (Reform) seems to think that being nearly Protestant is enough to lure Jews back, which it doesn't after B'nai Mitzvah and UJC (Conservative) brings with it a unique blend of too much ritual and bizarre internal politics so it falls on the smallest of the three, the Orthodox to keep Judaism alive.

[Vic]

Actually, many of such "unaffiliated" Jews around here do practice Judaism - they just disagree with community policies on this or other issue, can't stand the Rabbi, etc. On the other hand, many registered community members don't care about Jewishness in any serious form - they stay in the communities for the sake of company

[Mediocrates]

Staying together for the sake of the coffee cake.

I've found that the rabbi is the least of the problem. s/he is hired and can be unhired. It's the machers in the temple who think they rule the rest of us I can't stand and can't shut up about.