Israel's Self-Righteous Critics Remain Silent as Palestinians Kill "Collaborators"

[ibrodsky]

Israel's critics lecture us on how they expect more from Israel because it is a democracy. They reject our response that Israel shows more respect for rule of law and international opinion than most democracies engaged in war.

They admonish us for pointing out that Israel's neighbors are far more tyrannical. They expect more from Israel -- so what if Israel is subjected to constant mass murder attacks?

How long will these hypocrites remain silent regarding the common practice among Palestinians of gunning down suspected "collaborators" with no evidence, no witnesses, no legitimate trials, and no due process whatsoever?

The reason these phony promoters of peace remain silent is they know the truth: groups such as Hamas label anyone who opposes suicide/homicide attacks, or talks of ending the infantifada, a "collaborator." The penalty among the poor, oppressed Palestinians for speaking out against Jihad-genocide is death.

Another "collaborator" gunned down today. Now, who among the Palestinians would like to step forward to advocate peace or condemn mass murder terrorism?

No one, of course, because the rational minority is not suicidal.

[Mr. Pumps]

The same for the U.S.A, we are suppose to treat the prisioners at Guantanimo Bay like royality, even if they were part of a network costing 3000 lives.

The EU has opposed Washington from day one, not to be helpful as a commonsense guide, but to prevent their social foundation from cracking under the heavy Muslim immigrant weight.

It is stupid and niave for countries that had not been a siege position to start getting involved in the matters of others, they have not lived there so they should bluntly SHUT UP!.

[Paris]

Self-Righteous Critic here,

Again the response I see is that hey, look at our neighbors they are ten times worse at least. This is still not a defense, it never will be.

Are you asking me to compare the Israeli government to Hamas?

You really think I should judge them on the same level?

Should I not expect more from the Israeli government then I do from Hamas?

Does Israel have evidence, witnesses, legitimate trials, and due process before engaging in extra judicial killings of suspected leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups?

Here, I am not remaining silent, Hamas blows. They should stop all attacks on civilian targets, and they should be charged and punished for the crimes they have committed. How is that?

I will always expect more from a democratic people.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Paris
Again the response I see is that hey, look at our neighbors they are ten times worse at least. This is still not a defense, it never will be.

I don't think that it's the issue being discussed by ibordsky.

In viewing the action of the Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, PA, al Aksa, Hizbullah etc., and on the other hand, Israel's self-defense responses, it's a matter of how to deal with the Palestinian war against Israeli civilians.

The Western standards of wartime conduct and of criminal justice were not crafted to deal with the extremist Islamic savages that are the problem. The question, therefore, is how should a civilized country like Israel protect its people and its democracy. This is the context that the Arab savagery is being discussed -- not as a point of comparison.

You really think I should judge them on the same level?... Should I not expect more from the Israeli government then I do from Hamas?

Yes. There is a difference of night and day between the Israeli culture of peace and the Islamic culture of death and destruction. But while the two are different, the conflict should be judged by a single standard -- not by a double standard like you seem to be urging.

Actually, it would be demeaning of you towards the Arabs to decide that since the Palestinian society is comprised to a great degree of terrorism supporters, then they are to be judged by lesser moral and legal standards than civilized people.

When Arab supporters expect Israel to grant known Palestinian murderers more rights than granted to the victims of Arab terrorism, then it tends to sound hypocritical.

And I agree with ibrodsky that it is pure hypocrisy that Palestinian supporters are silent in the face of the brutal execution of anyone accused of being a "collaborator." This silence is yet another reminder that Palestinian supporters who moan and groan constantly about what they like to call human rights violations, all of a sudden turn a blind eye to crimes against individuals and crimes against humanity committed daily by the Palestinians.

Saying something like "Hamas blows but I expect more from Israel" just doesn't cut it.

[Vic]

Paris, let's make it simpler.

What makes the life of a Palestinian worth less when s/he is threatened by a fellow Palestinian than by an Israeli? Which leads to a second question: Are you criticising the Israeli government just for the sake of exercising criticism or out of genuine concern for Palestinians?

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Paris
Again the response I see is that hey, look at our neighbors they are ten times worse at least. This is still not a defense, it never will be.

Are you asking me to compare the Israeli government to Hamas?

You really think I should judge them on the same level?

Should I not expect more from the Israeli government then I do from Hamas?

I must agree with you, the Israeli "line of defense" of the kind you pointed out is poor. We have to have our own standareds and stand firm behind them.

That is what I'm doing right now. I am a Likud (means Unity or Union in Hebrew, its the leading conservative party, like the Torires in UK or the Rep. in the US). I am a Likud member, a IDF soldier in reserves and political campuss activist in TAU. (Tel Aviv University).

I voted Sharon twice, within the party in 1999, and in the general elections in 2001). I am undecided whether Sharon is right enough for me, I may vote BiBi in the party elections, next October. Natanyahu promises to be tougher with the Arabs.

I see nothing worng with Israel self defense initiative other then the fact it too little and too late for more then 608 Jews. the IDF fights still with one hand tied behind his back. Israel got pulled into a war of attrition and its wrong, we should have end these all in few weeks, using artilery and and air bombings, like the Europeans done to the Serbs. We should've draw firm lines on the ground, that anybody who crosses them, even if it's the pope it self, get shot on the spot! We should've taken Arafat, put IT on trail and hang him the way we hanged the Natzi Aichmann in 1960-61.

Israel's problem is that there are too many terrorists living... who should've been dead for years before! regardless the cost.

Originally posted by Paris
Does Israel have evidence, witnesses, legitimate trials, and due process before engaging in extra judicial killings of suspected leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups?

Yes, Israel does kill acording to firm intelligence evidences. In a war, you do not have to prove some enemy want to kill you, and you don't put every enemy soldier on trail before you shoot it. Same goes in Israel. Once some one is known to be a terrorist or a memeber of a terrorist organization, and there is no practical option to capture him alive, with out risking the lives of hundered of civilians in a street warfare, or risking the lives of Jewish civilians by not stopping such a terrorist, then the last option left open is to kill that terrorist.

Believe me, had Israel wanted to pick on simple civilians and kill them for fun, we have simpler and cheaper ways to do so, yet we use million dollar missile to kill a single men in a way to aviod as much as humanly possible 'colletoral demage'.

Originally posted by Paris
Here, I am not remaining silent, Hamas blows. They should stop all attacks on civilian targets, and they should be charged and punished for the crimes they have committed. How is that?

How nice of you!!! oh.... you shouldn't have... , you done SO much for us, people might mistake you to be pro-Israeli.

Now, that you seem to a gree that killers of women and children are a bit noty and should be put on trail and get slapped on the wrist, the same way Gemens trailed Natzi war crimminals in the 60's and 70's.

how do you think we should do that? how do you think we should catch them so they later face trail??? Invite them for a bit of tea and a little frindly chat, maybe?

I think Israel is in a war against terror, any man who is proven by intel, that he is a memeber of a terroristic organization, should get killed, like any ememy soldier in a conventional war. It the terrorist own choise whether or not to join a terroristic organization and its the enemy conscript choise whether to march on and fight or to surrender or to desert. If enemy soldier keeps on fighiting, then he must die, and we are allowed to kill him. a terrorist is of no different.

Our Shabak (General Security Services - Israel's Yard or NSA) boys are great, possible the best in the world. Yet, that means they are better then everybody else, not supermen. Not allways you can catch a bad guy clean and simple. Many times they've civilan human shields, and a small army of body gurds. You can't snach them with out making the terrorist go underground and vanish, or to begin a Jenin-like battle. Besides, its war, not every enemy soldier should be notified in adavece he might face trail, and begin legal procidures in a midst of a war... it's stupid and unrealistic.

Originally posted by Paris
I will always expect more from a democratic people.

Oh boy, that's my favorit!!!

I understand why you think democracies must not "kill people". But non democracies can? please, can some one answer me that?

[peacelover]

I understand why you think democracies must not "kill people". But non democracies can? please, can some one answer me that?

It's more the point that if you kill people, you have no right to be called a democracy.
It's not that non democracies are allowed to kill people - it's the fact that they do which is part of the reason why they are not a democracy.

[peacelover]

Paris is 100% right.

Israel is not entitled to do what it likes just because other people do it worse.

And it is Israel's supporters on this board who insist that Israel is different to the Arab states - therefore it is immensely hypocritical to complain when we treat them differently

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by peacelover
Paris is 100% right. Israel is not entitled to do what it likes just because other people do it worse.

The question is what must Israel do to defend the lives of its citizens from the Palestinian suicide bombers. So far, what has proven effective is killing the terrorist leaders and destroying the houses of the suicide bombers' families.

I think that the war on Islamic terrorism has required of democracies like Israel and the U.S. to use tactics that are effective against those who would massacre Israeli and American children.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Paris
Self-Righteous Critic here,

Again the response I see is that hey, look at our neighbors they are ten times worse at least. This is still not a defense, it never will be.

I'm making two points. The first is that when criticizing Israel you need to acknowledge that Israel is fighting for survival in the face of profound evil.

You cannot demand that a democracy risk the lives of its own citizens in order to ensure civil liberties of enemies who are devoted to taking away the civil liberties of both Israel's citizens and their own citizens.

Second, it is racist to suggest (in effect) that Arabs must be held to a lower standard. Both Israelis and Palestinians are human beings. If you agree that Israel is a democracy and that Hamas is a pack of mass murderers and the PA a thugocracy, then your main complaint should be aimed at Hamas and the PA -- not Israel.

There is something disingenuous about saying that you criticize Israel for being imperfect more than the Palestinians for acting like brutes because you expect so much more from Israelis. Who do you think you are kidding?

A more accurate assessment is that while Arafat's united front of terror deals Israel punch Number One critics like you follow right behind to deliver punch Number Two.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by peacelover
Paris is 100% right.

Israel is not entitled to do what it likes just because other people do it worse.

And it is Israel's supporters on this board who insist that Israel is different to the Arab states - therefore it is immensely hypocritical to complain when we treat them differently

So what you are saying is that since Israel is a democracy she must act according to laws, but since the Palestinians are undemocratic one cannot expect them to act according to laws.

This is nonsense.

You are pretending that the Palestinians and Israelis are engaged in two completely separate wars.

Israel is not entitled to do what she is doing just because other people are worse offenders. Israel is entitled to do what she is doing precisely because those other people are commiting their offenses against innocent Israeli civilians.

To pretend that the more civilized party must show restraint regardless of what the uncivilized party does is, in effect, to support the uncivilized party.

It is the duty of the civilized society to triumph over evil.

It's really quite simple. You are complaining about the behavior of the victim fighting off the attacker, and then covering up your backhanded support for the aggressor by pretending you expected better behavior from the victim.

[Mr. Pumps]

Mr. Paris lives in one of the most peaceful societies in the world and thousands of miles away from bloodshed.

So, how does he know the situation in the Middle East, in case you did'nt know look on a map and realise Israel is quite small as compared to most everyone else and look up too that Israel is not a large populated country with alittle over 6 million people.

Mr. Paris and his country is massive with no external threats or internal threats, well.....Mr. Paris you live in another world as as do I and all people in the Western World. We are live in peace so we claim it is right to step into others who live in a vastly more threatening enviroment than we do.

It's like some Brazilian telling a Columbian to give FARC the right for his government not to exist.

Unless we are personally in the zone of warfare, your view Mr. Paris is biased from your location and safety.

[tandem]

i have not heard once, not even once, israel's critics condamning the palestinian way of taking care of "alleged" collaborators. palestinians civilians are being murdered in the streets by masked gunmen, without any trial in a court of law just because they suspected of collaborating with israel. where is the proof? where is the judicial process? oh yes, i forgot, thats how the palestinian legal system works. whats even more disturbing is how the palestinian authority is responsible for some of these executions. remember the article last week, about how an alleged criminal was executed in arafat's compound while arafat and his ministers were meeting just a few meters away? where is the condamnation from the europeans? from the UN? but then again, what will a european condamnation accomplish anyway? what we need is less talk and more action. i say place sanctions on him until the palestinian authority is reformed

[Pushtak18]

Originally posted by tandem
i have not heard once, not even once, israel's critics condamning the palestinian way of taking care of "alleged" collaborators. palestinians civilians are being murdered in the streets by masked gunmen, without any trial in a court of law just because they suspected of collaborating with israel. where is the proof? where is the judicial process? oh yes, i forgot, thats how the palestinian legal system works. whats even more disturbing is how the palestinian authority is responsible for some of these executions. remember the article last week, about how an alleged criminal was executed in arafat's compound while arafat and his ministers were meeting just a few meters away? where is the condamnation from the europeans? from the UN? but then again, what will a european condamnation accomplish anyway? what we need is less talk and more action. i say place sanctions on him until the palestinian authority is reformed

Tandem,

There is a corrupted organization called Amnestry. That is why! They are there to protect people with immunity against harsh punishment and inprisonment. Unfortunetly, they don't do that. What they do is get a celeberty and have them try to make them 'sales' instead of the 'support' to help these people.

Many of the killed collabortators are not actuall colaborators, but suspected colabortators. I have read reports in the Gaurdian (out of all the newspapers) that in some clans, tribes and neighbourhood you must make an alegion with the terror group, so they won't harm you. You must have a flag or banner near your house. Many of the dead were just bystanders. In somce cases, it was a thrill seek kinda murder they they tried to do, to show fear cause they don't understand israeli spies and technology.

Sad sad thing

[peacelover]

Ibrodsky:

I said nothing of the sort.

I think every single country needs to obey certain laws.
If israel is not prepared to obey these laws, I am not going to let her be called a democracy.

You are complaining about the behavior of the victim fighting off the attacker,

Perhaps you think only Jews know how to suffer but I actually disagree that the Israelis are the only victims, and the Palestinians are the only aggressors. That shows your bias. I think they are both victims, and both to blame for this conflict - never forget who is the occupying power, and ask yourself whether you would rather live like an Israeli or a Palestinian right now.

This conflict didn't start with the intifada you know.

The question is what must Israel do to defend the lives of its citizens from the Palestinian suicide bombers

Actually, I'm just as interested in saving the lives of non-Israeli citizens.

Israel is entitled to defend its citizens, yes. But not everything can be excused as self-defence.
Israel is not entitled to defend its citizens in a way that puts at risk and forces such extensive collective punishment on thousands of Palestinian civilians. You know curfews etc have put Palestinian childhood malnutrition at official crisis levels?
That is not just defending its citizens, it's Israel forcing terrible suffering on people (who don't have citizenship of anywhere in the world)