Home | Well, Minusthe, we seem to agree that the US should question what happens with the aid it gives to Israel, even if we disagree on what the answer to that questioning is. Will you join me in rejecting Mr. Pumps suggestion that we should not question what Israel does at all?
Clever. Palestinians attack Israel by blowing up buses, cafes, and discos. Israel defends itself. Philip asks if Palestinians can defend themselves against Israel.Originally posted by Philip
Do you agree that the Palestinians have the right to self-defense?
What about when a phony "nation" attacks another nation with complete disregard for the rights of others to live? Israel is doing exactly what you advise: trying to the best of its ability to bring the criminals (as in Crimes Against Humanity) to justice.I think that any nation that acts to defend its interests with almost complete disregard for the rights of others should certainly be thought of as a lowly inhuman butcher. Do you disagree? When individuals behave in this way, we consider them criminals and lock them up to the best of our abilities, and states should be dealt with in a similar way.
Israel's self-righteous critics just keep on going...
Nonsense. The point of this thread is that Israel's critics demand that Israel treat Palestinians as if they act civilized, when the truth is that Palestinians treat both Israelis and each other with obscene brutality.One need only to peruse the postings in this forum to verify that Israel's supporters consider Palestinians to be entitled to only a lesser, abbreviated set of rights in Israel/Palestine.
When, o self-righteous critic, are you going to condemn Palestinians gunning down "suspected collaborators" in the street? Is this not a blatant abrogation of human rights?
There you go again, putting words in others' mouths. We don't say Palestinians have less rights than Israelis. But they don't have the "right" to mass murder Israelis, and as long as such immoral behavior is rampant in Palestinian society they need to be kept under what in other times and places has been called "martial law."And, given that Israelis think that Palestinians have lesser rights than Jews, one would have to be pretty stupid to imagine that it is only Palestinians whom they hold in such contemptuous regard. Fortunately for Israel, a lot of people are pretty stupid -- maybe some of them deserve Israel's contempt.
Your suggestion that Israelis hold other people in contempt for racist reasons is baseless. Naturally Israelis have a good deal of contempt for all people who support terrorism.
But we don't hear a peep out of you re: U.S. bankrolling the PA which supports terrorism, supports the Axis of Evil, executes "suspected collaborators" in the street, commits Crimes Against Humanity," and more. Nor do we hear you complaining about how most of the money intended to relieve the Palestinian people seems to end up in Arafat's personal coffers.As to your earlier point about criticism from the sidelines, because my country (the US) bankrolls Israel so heavily, it can hardly be said to be on the sidelines. To suggest that we should continue to support something without questioning it is to demand that we abandon our own moral responsibility, which is a rather contemptuous demand to make. Are you sure that you don't think Americans should question Israel?
As Philip says, please tell me how a people without citizenship, let alone their own army, are supposed to defend themselves agiinst the 'crimes against humanity' Amnesty has accusd Israel of for so long?Please tell us how Israel is supposed to defend its citizens against suicide/homicide attacks
I think you make a good answer to this question here:
Not acceptable, right?Palestinians attack Israel by blowing up buses, cafes, and discos
So what we have is a situation in which we must accept (if we are to avoid double standards) that palestinians have the right to defend themselves, but their manner of doing so is not acceptable. Basically, to say people have the right to self-defence is not enough - not all forms of self-defence are acceptable.
This must apply equally to Israel as to the Palestinians. Israel does not have the right to defend its citizens by killing other citizens - intentionally or not is not really the issue. When malnutrition levels and poverty in the territories are at official crisis levels due to the 'self-defence', I don't think Israel has the right. When people cannot leave their houses because of the tank outside, I do not think Israel has the right. When 2 month old babies are blown up in their cot, I do not think Israel has the right.
To ask for an alternative is no kind of defence whatsoever - unless you are prepared to accept suicide bombs on the grounds that Palestinians have no other option.
I call for all of these - as long as the last point doesn't involve the deaths of 14 other innocents as well.If you were sincerely concerned about their welfare, you would demand the following:
1. An immediate halt of all executions of "suspected collaborators" by Palestinians.
2. An immediate halt to intimidation by Hamas to join/support them.
3. An immediate halt to terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.
4. That Palestinians who commit the above acts be brought to justice.
You say that, but then you're probably one of these deniers who thinks the Palestinians just upped and left their homes, and weren't forced out. Israel was the aggressor when they forced my 4 year old uncle out of his home at gunpoint.Right. The Arab world has been trying to destroy Israel since 1948. The aggressors are clearly the Arabs.
Israel is the aggressor because Israel is the occupying power. Israel is the agressor because it has been violating Palestinia human rights since long before the intifada (but the self-righteous Israel supporters would prefer to call HRW, Amnesty etc liars than condemn this). Israel is the agressor when it builds illegal settlements.
But the Pals have no right to be mad about this? You cannot honestly tell me that this conflict can be summed up in terms of Palestinian attack and Israeli defence?
Sometimes it seems you all think Israel is perfect
Originally posted by peacelover
As Philip says, please tell me how a people without citizenship, let alone their own army, are supposed to defend themselves agiinst the 'crimes against humanity' Amnesty has accusd Israel of for so long?
I think you make a good answer to this question here:
Not acceptable, right?
So what we have is a situation in which we must accept (if we are to avoid double standards) that palestinians have the right to defend themselves, but their manner of doing so is not acceptable. Basically, to say people have the right to self-defence is not enough - not all forms of self-defence are acceptable.
This must apply equally to Israel as to the Palestinians. Israel does not have the right to defend its citizens by killing other citizens - intentionally or not is not really the issue. When malnutrition levels and poverty in the territories are at official crisis levels due to the 'self-defence', I don't think Israel has the right. When people cannot leave their houses because of the tank outside, I do not think Israel has the right. When 2 month old babies are blown up in their cot, I do not think Israel has the right.
To ask for an alternative is no kind of defence whatsoever - unless you are prepared to accept suicide bombs on the grounds that Palestinians have no other option.
I call for all of these - as long as the last point doesn't involve the deaths of 14 other innocents as well.
You say that, but then you're probably one of these deniers who thinks the Palestinians just upped and left their homes, and weren't forced out. Israel was the aggressor when they forced my 4 year old uncle out of his home at gunpoint.
Israel is the aggressor because Israel is the occupying power. Israel is the agressor because it has been violating Palestinia human rights since long before the intifada (but the self-righteous Israel supporters would prefer to call HRW, Amnesty etc liars than condemn this). Israel is the agressor when it builds illegal settlements.
But the Pals have no right to be mad about this? You cannot honestly tell me that this conflict can be summed up in terms of Palestinian attack and Israeli defence?
Sometimes it seems you all think Israel is perfect
Ammnesty wouldn't give a london-face rats ass for whos getting punished or not...clearly there the pioneers of Pro-Communist, Anti-Globalist movement indeed.... Going after the US federal government on a person who murdered 5..... yet; they never would dare to step in there social heaven as they call - the autocratic regimes!!!!
Not to be dismissed...Amnesty ignored please by Palestinians whos loved ones were dragged, lynch and accused by own people of working with Israel. They were hung upside down and left for dead. Amnesty saw this. They didn't do anything. And yet your telling me that they have a right to critize israel.
Israel has a right. You look at it as a double standard cause you don't have anywhere else to look at. Don't you think that if for once Palestinians would put and end to what you say "Right to self-defence" and get on with there freakin' lives, than there woudn't be a problem?
Sounds odd to you? doesn't it?
Well....maybe you should go see the days before the infifhada how it was...... You never saw a Palestinian cry occupation or tanks or 'im locked in my house'!!!! Infact, i think that Hamas and the Jihaders Initiated the camp david accords.....wanna know why?? Cause they were going out of business!!!!!!!
other than that, off the topic - the Camp David thing was a mistake...... You have israel trying to initiate a peace deal and getting what??? Economic downterm and violence??
Wheres our Amnesty???
>>>'As Philip says, please tell me how a people without citizenship, let alone their own army, are supposed to defend themselves agiinst the 'crimes against humanity' Amnesty has accusd Israel of for so long?'<<<
what "crimes against humanity" are you talking about?
demolishing the homes of terrorists and suicide bombers? targeted killings? these is not crimes against humanity
now lets get this whole occupation issue out of the way. first of all, there is NO occupation taking place. the military presence is temporary, and could have been avoided if arafat would have dismantled all the terrorist organizations operating in the territories. the israelis said repeatedly that they have no intention of staying there forever. i mean, why would they want to stay? keeping all the troops and equipment in the west bank costs money, money that could be put into other sectors of the israeli economy
the moment you can call this "occupation" is the day when 3.5 million palestinians will be transferred to jordan, egypt, syria, or saudi arabia and israel will begin to build large communities in the heart of palestinian cities, and make it clear to the palestinians that they shall never call the west bank and the gaza strip their homeland
>>>'Basically, to say people have the right to self-defence is not enough - not all forms of self-defence are acceptable.'<<<
true, but what the palestinians are doing is NOT self-defence. its terror. how can it be called-self defence when all they target are mainly innocent civilians, including infants who have not done any harm to the palestinian people? to strap a bomb on yourself and blow up in crowded shopping malls or restaurants full of innocent people -- is this really your definition of self-defence? do you think actions like that will bring the palestinians any peace?
groups like hamas and islamic jihad are using the self-defence excuse to basically murder as many innocent israelis as they can in order to put an end to the existence of the jewish state. their idea of liberation includes all of present-day israel (which in their view is all palestinian land), and not just what was lost in '67 (thus their justification for targeting civilians, be it men, women, children, infants on israeli soil). didn't hamas say a few weeks ago to the palestinian authority, "give us 5 years" to kill all the jews in "palestine"?
>>>'I do not think Israel has the right. When 2 month old babies are blown up in their cot, I do not think Israel has the right.'<<<
the strike against shehada was perfectly legal and within the boundaries of international laws. i believe the issue here is more of moral concern rather than legal. it is quite unfortunate that innocent civilians got killed in the strike against shehada. having said that, i believe the high profile target justified the attack. shehada was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of israelis, and he was planning even bigger terror attacks
shehada and hamas are solely to blame for all the civilian deaths. salach shehada knew very well he was at the top of israel's most wanted list, and he chose to intentionally hide behind women and children to avoid captivity while continuing to execute terrorist attacks against the same kind of people he's been hiding behind -- innocent women and children
>>>'Israel is the aggressor because Israel is the occupying power. Israel is the agressor because it has been violating Palestinia human rights since long before the intifada (but the self-righteous Israel supporters would prefer to call HRW, Amnesty etc liars than condemn this). Israel is the agressor when it builds illegal settlements.'<<<
illegal settlements?! there is no such thing. the palestinians (or rather jordanians) lost judea and samaria in the six day war of 1967, when all the arab states got together and tried to eradicate the state of israel. same goes for egypt and the gaza strip. the bottomline is, this is now israeli land
lets be realistic, getting rid of all the jews in the middle east is a long time dream of most arab states. the arabs lost a war that they started, and now israel is suppose to give the land back? yeah right. lets not forget that the palestinians never had their own country to begin with. the territories israel annexed in '67 weren't captured from "palestina"
>>>'You cannot honestly tell me that this conflict can be summed up in terms of Palestinian attack and Israeli defence?'<<<
well, look at the facts. the palestinians initiated a campaign of terror in september, 2000, following the collapse of the camp david peace talks. the first israeli helicopter strike took place after two israeli reservists who got lost in ramallah were lynched by a few hundred palestinian animals, and even then the israelis notified the palestinians of the target ahead of time so that they will have time to evacuate. the rest is history. this would be the beginning of israeli reprisals against terror attacks committed by the palestinians. all this time, yasser arafat could have put a stop to all the violence, stop the incitement in state-controlled media. he chose not to, and now his people pay the price
>>>'Sometimes it seems you all think Israel is perfect'<<<
i dont think israel is perfect. however, i strongly believe that israel has a right to defend itself against terror, just like any other country
Last edited by tandem; 08-16-2002 at 03:25 PM.
LOL, that's a great one. This is known as argumentum ad verecundiam, appeal to (questionable) authority. As if it is not perfectly evident that Amnesty has been a bad joke for so long in everything concerning Israel. All one needs is to compare its reports on Israel with those on other countries.Originally posted by peacelover
As Philip says, please tell me how a people without citizenship, let alone their own army, are supposed to defend themselves agiinst the 'crimes against humanity' Amnesty has accusd Israel of for so long?Please tell us how Israel is supposed to defend its citizens against suicide/homicide attacks"We all"???Sometimes it seems you all think Israel is perfect
P.S.: Thanks to the forum administration for implementing nested quotes - GREAT
I expect that if the Palestinians had more access to anti-tank weapons, such as made up most of the cargo of the much damned Karine A, they would be able to mount a more conventional defense against the Israeli incursions, and Israel and the Palestinians could have more normal relations.
But of course that would require that we accept that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and their neighborhoods against tank assaults, a seemingly obvious right that some self-righteous people do not think they should have.
According to peacelover and Philip, we are supposed to believe that terrorism is the only available means for "people without citizenship, let alone their own army" to defend themselves.
The obvious fallacy is that blowing Israeli teenage girls is not by any stretch of imagination an act of self-defense.
It is simply extreme anti-semitism. These civilians are being killed not because they oppress Palestinians, but because they are Jews.
If anyone has any doubt about this, please read about the counter-rally that took place at San Francisco State University, where Palestinian supporters attacked Israel supporters and chanted "Hitler didn't finish the job!"
Originally posted by ibrodsky
According to peacelover and Philip, we are supposed to believe that terrorism is the only available means for "people without citizenship, let alone their own army" to defend themselves.
The obvious fallacy is that blowing Israeli teenage girls is not by any stretch of imagination an act of self-defense.
It is simply extreme anti-semitism. These civilians are being killed not because they oppress Palestinians, but because they are Jews.
You are right that some Palestinians/Arabs hate Jews becuase they are Jews. However. I dont think that applies to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict. It it not possible that a person hu just hates Jews would go and kill themselves too. A person who hates his life more than his enemies would only suicide bomb.
What exactly makes a person a terrorist? Desperation. Yes. No other means of fighting. Yes. Anger. Yes. Belief that hurting other people will crumble them as they themselves feel crumbled. Yes.
It is also true that almost everyone in this conflict was once supportive of terrorism for their own dealings when they were without defense.
Jews were once terrorist, the British were once terrorist, the Russians were once terrorists.
The intense feeling of anti-semitism is not unique to Arabs. Jews in Israel feel intense hate towards Arabs too. Members in the Knesset talk about killing all the Arabs, etc. Israel should try to understand that as the more powerful party, they will be hit by terrorism if they continue with blaming the other side, and using tanks, F-16's, etc on civilians to catch 4-20 people per city. They can try as much as they want and justify as much as they want, but they can destroy the physical infastructure of terrorism, but with each tank, soldier, etc. they only leave behind an even stronger mental, psycological infastructure.
You are forgetting some things.Originally posted by daveed
What exactly makes a person a terrorist? Desperation. Yes. No other means of fighting. Yes. Anger. Yes. Belief that hurting other people will crumble them as they themselves feel crumbled. Yes.
Being pitied worldwide. The murderers have an enormous stage with a delighted audience. Lack of moral compass derived from self-pity. Knowing that there are people out there who understand such actions, who will not turn away from the Palestinians as they should do, had they have any sense of decency left in them (could it be that this is what support for Palestinians is: a celebration of indecency under a self-proclaimed "moral" guise?). Knowing that their true or putative couse will not suffer through such acts, worse, that support for it grows stronger with each immoral act - for one reason: such acts are directed at the world's foremost "punching bag", the Jews. The joy of the act - the mass demonstrations, the rewards for the families.
The celebration of deliberate cruelty, again, in full knowledge that there are millions out there who won't stop sobbing about "the suffering of the Palestinian people", conjuring one lame excuse after another, be it self-defence for lack of other military means, be it that Jews are not nice enough in general, be it that Israel was founded by the UN and must be an especially moral state out of sheer gratitude... Feel free to continue.
Originally posted by Vic
Being pitied worldwide. The murderers have an enormous stage with a delighted audience. Lack of moral compass derived from self-pity. Knowing that there are people out there who understand such actions, who will not turn away from the Palestinians as they should do, had they have any sense of decency left in them. Knowing that their true or putative couse will not suffer through such acts, worse, that support for it grows stronger with each immoral act - for one reason: such acts are directed at the world's foremost "punching bag", the Jews. The joy of the act - the mass demonstrations, the rewards for the families.
Well. I wouldn't say people pitied the bombers. What people around the world do feel pity for is the Palestinian situation. We got that too when WWII was over. No one said anything about our terrorism. Our leader delighted when they were told how many people were killed so we could move ahead. Killing and desperation was what our first generation felt. And when it gets to so much death, decency is not the first thing a person thinks of when they remember their innocent--not bomber--family member that got killed by a foreign army.
The situation of the Palestinian people--innocent people--is not a lame excuse. Was it a lame excuse that we came to the Holy Land because of Hitler? People also call that a lame exuse. But I know many---probably all-- of us would call that attitude anti-semetic. If these bombers just hated us, and felt the "support" of the world, then they would do what we did once upon a time, and not kill themselves. They hate themselves, and their life more than any Jew they might kill, because it takes alot to pull the trigger on yourself. That is not the result of lame exuses, or "support". That is in a way self-defence, as we once discribed it, it is also a way of leaving to a place that they feel is better than the one they are in. You make it seem as if the Palestinians are not suffering, not hurting, not in pain. That is the kind of situation that turns a person into an animal.The celebration of deliberate cruelty, again, in full knowledge that there are millions out there who won't stop sobbing about "the suffering of the Palestinian people", conjuring one lame excuse after another, be it self-defence for lack of other military means, be it that Jews are not nice enough in general, be it that Israel was founded by the UN and must be an especially moral state out of sheer gratitude... Feel free to continue.
Daveed, everything that you write is nice in theory, but it would be valid in a better world. Come over to where I am now, visit a couple of "Palestine support" meetings, read some of the writings originating from this sector, talk to some of the people, and you will get what I mean. (Yes, the attackers are pitied. Everything Palestinian is, no matter what. There is simply no such thing as Palestinians who are not saints to a certain rather large sector of the public.) In my experience there is exactly one reason for the completely exaggerated interest in Palestinians (ever seen mass demonstrations against Mugabe or the Taliban in the West?): they are a welcome pretext to harass Jews, whether connected to Israel or not. Somehow hardly anyone seems to expect Palestinians to abide by common moral standards.
And - that terrorism thrives on attention, on mass popularity, is not a discovery of mine. There is sizeable literature on the topic. It is therefore quite a legitimate speculation whether the murder attacks against Israeli civilians would stop if Palestinians were less of an issue than they are now. We had a short discussion on a very telling text, demonstrating IMO the quintessence of Palestinian terrorism, some time ago in this forum: http://www.israelforum.com/board/sho...6428#post16428
The facts "on the ground" in Israel are a different matter. The politics are probably not always the best, as politics are - on both sides. But what is going on outside is vile - and a great boost for terrorist attacks.
Pushtak18:
Israel was facing accusations of human rights abuses long before the intifada, make no mistake. Amnesty (I could name others - many others) are critical of the PA as well, and condemn Palestinian violence, and Arafat's oppression of his own people. I think what you really mean in saying Amnesty is not fair is that you don't like what you have to hear, so you use feeble excuses to invalidate the source.
Um... no. Extra-judicial assassinations are most certainly not legal, and heavily contravene the human rights bill. This would be the case even if 14 innocents weren't taken with the target. But you are right, there is a moral issue as well.the strike against shehada was perfectly legal and within the boundaries of international laws. i believe the issue here is more of moral concern rather than legal.
As for the rest of your post - take off the rose-tinted specs.
Vic - so you tell me a source then. You tell me a source that is reliable. And Amnesty was just one example of countless independent organisations who don't kid themselves into thinking Israel is squeaky clean.
The obvious fallacy with your standpoint is that dropping F-16 bombs onto civilian areas, starving children to death, implementing collective punishment is not by any stretch of imagination an act of self-defence.The obvious fallacy is that blowing Israeli teenage girls is not by any stretch of imagination an act of self-defense.
It is simply extreme anti-semitism. These civilians are being killed not because they oppress Palestinians, but because they are Jews.
I disagree that the civilians are always killed just for being Jewish. One rally is not enough to prove that. As I keep saying, Palestinians are individuals, not one collective mind. No doubt some people want to kill them just for being Jewish, but I think
it's fair to say that different people can have different motivations. Not that anyone would condone such behaviour as you alledge at that rally, which was really unacceptable.
Daveed:
That is profoundly true. That is why I know that military reprisals will never bring peace. You are saying what I have been trying to say ever since i came here, and you have done it so much better.They can try as much as they want and justify as much as they want, but they can destroy the physical infastructure of terrorism, but with each tank, soldier, etc. they only leave behind an even stronger mental, psycological infastructure.
There is none. No single source that is 100% reliable in all respects on all issues. That's life. One has to learn to evaluate information by oneself.Originally posted by peacelover
Vic - so you tell me a source then. You tell me a source that is reliable.
The problem isn't that the world seems to demand more from Israel than from the Arabs, but that Israel is judged by standards which the western countries often don't apply to themselves.Originally posted by Paris
[B]Self-Righteous Critic here,
Again the response I see is that hey, look at our neighbors they are ten times worse at least. This is still not a defense, it never will be.
Are you asking me to compare the Israeli government to Hamas?
You really think I should judge them on the same level?
Should I not expect more from the Israeli government then I do from Hamas?[b]
There were large civilian death tolls in the Gulf War, the NATO operations in Kosovo, and Afghanistan. In all those cases, European countries were involved as well as the US.
In none of those cases do I recall protest against the countries even approaching that directed against Israel. And in those cases (except, arguably, Afghanistan) the threat the attacking countries faced was nowhere near that which Israel does.
When possible, Israel arrests and tries them (it would have been much more convenient, for example, to simply "disappear" Bhargouti rather than trying him). And despite what you seem to think, they are not killed at random. Terrorist leaders are killed when there is intelligence that they are planning or commiting attacks against Israel. However, when faced with a unavoidable choice between loss of Israeli civilians and loss of Palestinian ones, Israel will face the former. You may decry this as discriminatory, and maybe you're right from your perspective. But realize this: any government (and the military is, up to a limit, an extension of the government) does and must regard the well-being of its own citizens first.Does Israel have evidence, witnesses, legitimate trials, and due process before engaging in extra judicial killings of suspected leaders of Hamas and other terrorist groups?
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