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I'm not sure why you would think that Israel has not declared its borders.Originally posted by Paris
It seems that neither side wants to declare official borders for their countries...
Here is the map of Israel as displayed by the Israeli Foreign Ministry:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0dtq0
Pretty clear to whom? To Zmag's anarchist, anti-American, anti-Israeli and anti-Western civilization readers?Originally posted by Philip
It is pretty clear that there is and has been institutional contempt for Arabs' lives in Israel.
What is in fact clear, is that Israel treats its Arab citizens far better than they deserve, including providing freedom of speech, political representation, welfare payments, health services, subsidized housing, unemployment benefits, child assistance, etc.
All these benefits are being paid by the Israeli taxpayer who is otherwise known as the target of the Palestinian and Islamic Jihad-genocide.
While Israel is paying to feed and educate its Arab citizens, the Arabs on the other hand are busy carrying out massacres of Israel's Jewish population.
Originally posted by NewsGuy
Pretty clear to whom? To Zmag's anarchist, anti-American, anti-Israeli and anti-Western civilization readers?
Now, now. Everybody hates somebody. Doesn't make it right, but it still happens and almost no one, except for a few pious people, is exempt from that.
All these benefits are being paid by the Israeli taxpayer who is otherwise known as the target of the Palestinian and Islamic Jihad-genocide.
While Israel is paying to feed and educate its Arab citizens, the Arabs on the other hand are busy carrying out massacres of Israel's Jewish population.Wrong. Israeli Arab citizens also pay taxes, and they are usually law abidding citizens, and no the laws are not equally equal to all, if they were how could it be a Jewish state? The only recent uproar I have seen from an Israeli Arab is when he was denied housing in a Jews-Only district. Its the Palestinians that come to Israel and bomb, not the Israeli Arabs.
Originally posted by ibrodsky
Not true. Jewish groups such as the Irgun fought the British authorities. Neither major Jewish militia before 1948, nor the state of Israel, have ever engaged in systematic campaigns to intentionally kill Arab civilians.
They(Jewish Terrorists or Militias) rejected the "restraint" policy of the Jewish Agency which preferred to use political powers to forward the goal of reclaiming the land. The Irgun began carrying out armed reprisals against the Arabs, which although provided relief for the settlers, caused political embarrassment for the Jewish Agency.The British began making mass arrests. Many Irgun fighters were driven into hiding. Menachem Begin was forced into hiding. He took upon himself the disguise of a religious man and spent much time in a Synagogue in Tel Aviv under an assumed name. (Jewish Author, dont know name)
Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.(Christian CL)
For some time, the 800 Jews in Hebron lived in peace with their tens of thousands of Arab neighbors. But on the night of August 23, 1929, the tension simmering within this cauldron of nationalities bubbled over, and for 3 days, Hebron turned into a city of terror and murder. By the time the massacres ended, 67 Jews lay dead and the survivors were relocated to Jerusalem, leaving Hebron barren of Jews for the first time in hundreds of years. (Jewish Library)
There is something fishy about someone who pretends that Jews have conducted anything vaguely resembling the mass murder attacks that are encouraged, supported, and celebrated in Palestinian society. The PA has built an entire culture around terrorism.
Being one sided is one thing. Being ridiculously one-sided is something else altogether. Can you honestly read what you are saying? Jews are humans too, and yes they have also conducted terrorism of their own when times called for it.
Nonsense.
And don't call me "kid" -- I am older than you.
I see Palestinian schools teaching young children that it is noble to be a terrorist and to die blowing up Jews. I see Palestinians lining up to go blow themselves up in hopes of taking, at random, Jews with them. I see Palestinians blowing up students at Hebrew University and then dancing in the street to celebrate the evil deed.
No, I think I am older than you. Where exactly do you see the Palestinian children being taught terrorism? Do they allow you in their schools? I have never been inside one, how did you get in?
Theres no point in stating the obvious, but I still don't think we should wash our hands yet.
Not true. You and many Arabs pretend that Arabs can't be "anti-semitic" because they are "semites." Both the dictionary and "commonly used" definition for anti-semitism is hatred of Jews. The meaning of words are not always rigorously derived from their roots. Not all Jews are semites but that doesn't stop anti-semites from hating them along with the rest.
Where do you get off saying "we"? That's why I consider it a moral obligation to support Israel in defending itself against Palestinian and Islamist terrorism.
"We" are Israelis siding with a different path. It is our moral obligation not to cross the line of morality as we defend ourselves against the "evil doers".
Palestine was Rome's Jewish province, and Jews have lived continuously in Israel for 3,000 years. Arabs conquered Israel during the Middle Ages, but were themselves soon conquered by the Ottomans. When modern Zionists began arriving in the late 19th century, Palestine was sparsely populated. There were about 90,000 Arabs living in the area that Jews later demanded for their tiny state. The Arab population in that space grew to 350,000 largely because Arabs gravitated towards the prosperity created by the Jewish community, which numbered over 600,000 by 1947.
They conquered before the Middle Ages, during the time of Omar.
Are you saying it is OK to take over a country as long as there aren't too many people living in it? I am not saying we should not have had a state, but the fact is, in my opinion, a life is a life. One life is just as precious as 20, or 200,000. Also, your numbers are sketchy, but thats probably the result of your source.
The region was called Palestine since the time, and even under the Ottomans. It was never a state, and it otherwise would have been a part called Greater Syria. I think you need a solid revision in history from many different points of view. Authors are not objective people.There never was an Arab state called "Palestine."
Study history. You might learn something.
The battle for Deir Yassin took place during Israel's War of Independence. You make it sound as if an unprovoked attack was made against a peaceful village, but that is not true. Irish diplomat and author Conor Cruise O'Brien corroborates Begin's story in The Siege: the villagers were warned to leave by loudspeakers and many did. The village was defended by Arab forces. Jenin was just one in a long string of claimed "massacres" beginning with Deir Yassin. An independent inquiry after the war found most of the 250 villagers who died were killed by crossfire. The claims that Jewish fighters brutalized civilians was contradicted by the testimony of villagers.Originally posted by daveed
Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.(Christian CL)
Again, you make it sound as if no one was to blame -- or Jews were to blame for their own massacre. Tell me, o righteous apologist, how many Arabs were killed over the 3 days?For some time, the 800 Jews in Hebron lived in peace with their tens of thousands of Arab neighbors. But on the night of August 23, 1929, the tension simmering within this cauldron of nationalities bubbled over, and for 3 days, Hebron turned into a city of terror and murder. By the time the massacres ended, 67 Jews lay dead and the survivors were relocated to Jerusalem, leaving Hebron barren of Jews for the first time in hundreds of years. (Jewish Library)
The one-sided accounts of the battle for Deir Yassin in 1948 and the Hebron massacre in 1929 you present speak for themselves.Being one sided is one thing. Being ridiculously one-sided is something else altogether. Can you honestly read what you are saying? Jews are humans too, and yes they have also conducted terrorism of their own when times called for it.
Didn't you list your birthday in your profile? As I recall, you did, and I am several years your senior.No, I think I am older than you. Where exactly do you see the Palestinian children being taught terrorism? Do they allow you in their schools? I have never been inside one, how did you get in?
I did not list my birthday. So how would you know you are older? Do you base your understanding of Israel's history on similar fantasies?
Teaching Palestinian children that terrorism is noble, beginning in kindergarten, is well documented. I saw the inside of a Palestinian school on a video. Truly, you must wear blinders if you haven't seen pictures of Palestinian children outfitted with mock suicide/homicide explosive belts at public demonstrations.
Are you saying it was OK for Arabs to conquer Israel during the Middle Ages because there weren't too many Jews living there?They conquered before the Middle Ages, during the time of Omar. Are you saying it is OK to take over a country as long as there aren't too many people living in it? I am not saying we should not have had a state, but the fact is, in my opinion, a life is a life. One life is just as precious as 20, or 200,000. Also, your numbers are sketchy, but thats probably the result of your source.
Yes, I am saying that if a people are allowed to return to their homeland and they demand the right to self-determination in areas where they have become the overwhelming majority, then they have the right to create a state. There are plenty of Arabs who stayed and kept their homes: the one million Arabs living in Israel are living proof.
Each person's life is precious to him/her and his/her loved ones. The groups that are killing just to kill are not the IDF, but Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, ad nauseum.
"Authors are not objective people"? What, does taking up the pen make one biased?The region was called Palestine since the time, and even under the Ottomans. It was never a state, and it otherwise would have been a part called Greater Syria. I think you need a solid revision in history from many different points of view. Authors are not objective people.
Individual authors are not necessarily objective. The way one gets to the truth is to read many sources and determine which facts appear fairly consistently. One should also consider whether the author has an ax to grind, and whether the author has written credibly on other topics.
Using that approach, you will find that the virulently anti-Israel side of the story, which you promote, is based on lies, propaganda, and half-truths.
My comment, that Arafat is corrupt and siphoned off many $millions for himself, was confirmed by a high-ranking PA official.Originally posted by Philip
Ibrodsky is repeating inflammatory lies that have already been refuted. Modern terrorism predates Arafat, as Ibrodsky well knows. Even if Ibrodsky hasn't enough respect for himself not to repeat these lies, the other moderators (Ibrodsky, believe it or not, is a "moderator" here) of this forum ought to attend to its standards if they don't want it quickly dismissed as a biased propaganda base masquerading as a free and open discussion.
You provide quotes from the Irgun site, but conveniently leave out key sections. I don't deny that individual Jews and groups, like people from any ethnic group, can be criminals. The Irgun was split over whether attacks against Arab civilians were an appropriate response to attacks against Jewish civilians. Other Jewish groups unreservedly condemned this form of retaliation.(Note that these attacks, according to the author of the Irgun site -- a former Irgun commander -- were done in response to an execution of an Irgun member by the BRITISH authorities. What mindset was it that made massacring Arabs an acceptable protest against the British authorities?)
The claim by you and others that Jewish groups and/or the state of Israel have systematically conducted terrorist attacks to kill Arab civilians is a big, fat lie. You have to reach all the way back to 1938 to find two consecutive attacks. How many terrorist attacks against Jews by Arabs occurred before then? How many since?
The bottomline is that Jewish groups rejected such attacks as immoral. The state of Israel rejects such attacks as immoral. You cite two attacks in 1938... this year Palestinian terrorists have conducting two or three such attacks per week. Many of these attacks were followed by large public celebrations.
How many Palestinians have been killed by bombs planted in marketplaces and other public places since the conflict began? How many Jews have been killed by bombs planted in marketplaces and other public places since the conflict began?
The honest answer to that question is that Jewish terrorists have been very few and far between, they received very little support, and real action has been taken by Jews to stop them.
Unfortunately, Palestinians have created an entire culture based on barbaric attacks against civilians, fueled by a fascist ideology that has swept the Arab world.
August 23rd 1929, fell on a Friday...
Riots started right after Friday prayers...
one of the most evilist time to start something...
Hmmm.It is pretty clear that there is and has been institutional contempt for Arabs' lives in Israel.
Not sure about that Philip. Well, certainly there is not as much contempt for Arab lives in Israel as there is for Israeli lives in the Arab world.
Originally posted by NewsGuy
Pretty clear to whom? To Zmag's anarchist, anti-American, anti-Israeli and anti-Western civilization readers?Originally posted by Philip [B]
It is pretty clear that there is and has been institutional contempt for Arabs' lives in Israel.What you both need to ask yourselves is, is three years imprisonment a reasonable punishment for mass murder and war crimes? And, do you think Israel would have assessed a maximum punishment of three years imprisonment to soldiers who had deliberately massacred peaceful Jewish civilians? Again, it is pretty clear that there is and has been institutional contempt for Arabs' lives in Israel, and if either of you refuse to see it, that says more about you than it says about the situation in Israel.Originally posted by Peacelover
Not sure about that Philip. Well, certainly there is not as much contempt for Arab lives in Israel as there is for Israeli lives in the Arab world.
In fact, a lot of the benefits to ALL Israeli citizens are paid for by American taxpayers, such as myself, and many of these benefits -- such as the administrative costs for the Israeli Land Administration and subsidized loans for illegal settlements -- are enjoyed only by Jewish Israeli citizens. Also, Arab Israeli citizens pay taxes, too, and thereby support many Jewish-only benefits.Originally posted by NewsGuy
What is in fact clear, is that Israel treats its Arab citizens far better than they deserve, including providing freedom of speech, political representation, welfare payments, health services, subsidized housing, unemployment benefits, child assistance, etc.
All these benefits are being paid by the Israeli taxpayer who is otherwise known as the target of the Palestinian and Islamic Jihad-genocide.
While Israel is paying to feed and educate its Arab citizens, the Arabs on the other hand are busy carrying out massacres of Israel's Jewish population.
And your characterization of Arafat as "The Father of Modern Terrorism" is a lie, making you a liar.Originally posted by ibrodsky
My comment, that Arafat is corrupt and siphoned off many $millions for himself, was confirmed by a high-ranking PA official.
You provide quotes from the Irgun site, but conveniently leave out key sections. I don't deny that individual Jews and groups, like people from any ethnic group, can be criminals. The Irgun was split over whether attacks against Arab civilians were an appropriate response to attacks against Jewish civilians. Other Jewish groups unreservedly condemned this form of retaliation.
The claim by you and others that Jewish groups and/or the state of Israel have systematically conducted terrorist attacks to kill Arab civilians is a big, fat lie.
It's not my claim, Ibrodsky, it's the Irgun's claim. ONCE again, from the Irgun historical site:
...the Irgun launched a series of operations against the Arabs.
What is it about the phrase "the Irgun launched" that is giving you such trouble, aside from the fact that it refutes your position and makes clear that what you have called "a big, fat lie" is in fact the truth?
I'm not answering your questions because, aside from the fact that they have no bearing on whether or not there were systematic terrorist attacks by Jews to kill Arabs (which clearly there were), I see no point in any discussion with a serial liar except to make him acknowledge his dishonesty and reform his ways. If you'll admit and retract your lies and apologize for calling me a liar, I'll consider addressing your questions.
In other words you answer questions are respond in any way except to fling accusations because your delicate sensibilties are soooo offended. UmKay? thanks.
Arafat is the Father of Modern Terrorism. You can pretend he isn't, but the rest of us know he is. He has planned, executed, and supervised terrorist attacks since 1964.Originally posted by Philip
And your characterization of Arafat as "The Father of Modern Terrorism" is a lie, making you a liar.
The President of the U.S. has described him as "compromised by terror." There have been dozens of books, maybe hundreds, written about Arafat's/the PLO's terrorist exploits.
Arafat invented airplane hijacking for political purposes. This technique was adopted by Al Qaeda to massacre 3,000 Americans.
The fact that the Irgun was split over this approach, that other Jewish groups condemned it, and that it was abandoned. Two consecutive attacks in 1938 do not indicate systematic attacks against Arab civilians. Plus, these attacks were in retaliation to Arab terrorist attacks against Jews.What is it about the phrase "the Irgun launched" that is giving you such trouble, aside from the fact that it refutes your position and makes clear that what you have called "a big, fat lie" is in fact the truth?
Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that the Irgun did systematically attack Arab civilians in 1938. Since such attacks were rejected by other Jewish groups, since the state of Israel has always rejected such attacks, and (most important) since the attacks were stopped, what is your point?I'm not answering your questions because, aside from the fact that they have no bearing on whether or not there were systematic terrorist attacks by Jews to kill Arabs (which clearly there were), I see no point in any discussion with a serial liar except to make him acknowledge his dishonesty and reform his ways. If you'll admit and retract your lies and apologize for calling me a liar, I'll consider addressing your questions.
You want to excuse decades of Palestinian mass murder attacks against Jews on the basis that one Jewish group retaliated in kind more than 60 years ago.
Don't worry, Philip. They were rhetorical questions. I know it would be much too embarrassing for you to answer my questions.
And please, can't you discuss this without engaging in personal attacks?
Originally posted by peacelover
Hmmm.
Not sure about that Philip. Well, certainly there is not as much contempt for Arab lives in Israel as there is for Israeli lives in the Arab world.
I disagree..... I think that Arabs who are living in Israel have insitutions and other means for there people. Infact, they have there own parties. Some of there people are in the knesset and the budget also focueses on them...
Yes; there has been discrimination, but before the criris we are seeing right now. Many Arabs had good jobs and good pay, whereas in other places such as Egypt or Lebanon and Syria they wouldn't get that sort of opprotunity. Not to mention, the health care!
Originally posted by ibrodsky
Arafat is the Father of Modern Terrorism. You can pretend he isn't, but the rest of us know he is. He has planned, executed, and supervised terrorist attacks since 1964.
The President of the U.S. has described him as "compromised by terror." There have been dozens of books, maybe hundreds, written about Arafat's/the PLO's terrorist exploits.
Arafat invented airplane hijacking for political purposes. This technique was adopted by Al Qaeda to massacre 3,000 Americans.
You have made only one comment that would justify your "Father of" characterization, and that is your claim that Arafat invented airplane hijacking. However, your claim is false.
In the first place, airline hijacking for political purposes was practiced by other groups long before any Palestinians participated in it. Notably, on Novewmber 1, 1958:
(from http://www.cdiss.org/terror_1950s.htm)Cuban airliner hijacked by the Twenty Sixth of July Movement and forced to attempt night landing in remote airfield in Cuba. The aircraft crashes killing seventeen of the twenty people on board.
And on May 1, 1961:
And on September 26, 1966:First ever United States aircraft hi-jacked and forced to fly to Communist Cuba. Puerto Rican born Abntulio Ramirez Ortiz forced the National Airlines Corvair 44O to fly to Havana at gun point and was then given asylum. He was jailed for twenty years when he returned to Maimi, United States, in 1975.
And on June 30, 1967:El Condor nationalists hijack Argentine aircraft from Buenos Aires to British occupied Falklands in a bid to bring attention to Argentina's claim to the islands. They eventually surrendered their hostages and were returned to Argentina by the British authorities.
And on February 1, 1968:Aircraft carrying Katangan rebel leader Moise Tshombe hijacked en route to Ibiza, Spain, and forced to land in Algeria in a bid to extradite him to his native Congo. The Algerians kept him under house arrest until he died two years later.
(from http://www.cdiss.org/terror_1960s.htm)A Delta Airlines DC8 was forced to fly to Havana, Cuba, in the first successful hijacking of a US commercial airliner since 1961. The hijacker was granted political asylum.
It is also claimed that Israel perpetrated one of the earliest forced diversions of a civilian airliner for purely political purposes on December 12, 1954.
In the second place, most of the hijackings -- and virtually all of the early hijackings -- by Palestinians were perpetrated by the PFLP, headed by George Habash, which boycotted Arafat's PLO until 1970. The PFLP's first hijacking of an airliner was on July 22, 1968, and it "lead the field in international terrorism during 1968-71." (Benny Morris, Righteous Victims)
So clearly your claim that "Arafat invented airplane hijacking for political purposes" is inaccurate.
Plus, these attacks were in retaliation to Arab terrorist attacks against Jews.
The Irgun's historians suggest that they were in retaliation for an execution of an Irgun terrorist by the British authorities:
After Ben-Yosef's execution, the Irgun launched a series of operations against the Arabs.
Phillip.
...the Irgun launched a series of operations against the Arabs.
Nice way to cut out key fragments of sentences and paragraphs to justify your own lies. Maybe Ayesha can explain exactly how that is done,a s she does in www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=22134
The fact is, it was war, how else would a fighting force go into the attack, except with a term like "launched an attack"? Weak arguement.
You must like bashing your head into a wall. Everyone has read your repetitive posts and ficticious insights. We've all looked at your dumb website (and from a web developer's perspective, I automatically discounted it as an "unprofessional, small time outfit" and surfed right past. At least beef up your aesthetic design elements if you want people to read anything.). Basically, you are boring and so are your arguements. But I assume you'll just keep bashing your head into a wall.
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