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Thread: Comparing Zionism to Islamism in the Guardian

  1. #1
    savvy
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    Comparing Zionism to Islamism in the Guardian

    With God on their side?
    http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/...heir_side.html

    Zionism and Islamism have more in common than their adherents think: both are dangerous political ideologies posing as religious movements.
    Ed Husain

    The only meeting place for a Muslim and a Jew is on the battlefield." So began the leaflet we in Hizb ut-Tahrir distributed across Muslim communities in Britain in the 1990s. We supported this war cry by backpatting our comrades in Hamas and refusing to recognise Israel's right to exist. Behind every single world event, from the Holocaust to 9/11, Arab Islamists blamed a global Zionist conspiracy. Similarly, in Jewish circles, Zionists from Binyamin Netanyahu to Daniel Pipes have made careers out of lambasting Islamists. But are Islamists and Zionists really all that different, despite their blatant enmity? I think not.

    Zionism and Islamism are both political perversions of ancient Abrahamic faiths of Judaism and Islam. They were both born out of protest and anger: Zionism in response to tsarist pogroms and Islamism as a retort to colonialism. The heavy political content of both ideologies came from men who had no theological training in the centuries-old traditional understanding of the Torah or the Koran. Theodore Herzl, an Austrian journalist, mapped out Zionism in an age of ubiquitous nationalism. Syed Qutb, an Egyptian literary critic, was the chief ideologue for Islamism. And yet they appealed to people of religious faith. Or did they?

    Some of the most ardent Zionists have been non-Jews, not least George W Bush and droves of evangelical, literalist Christians. Increasingly, here in Britain, we are witnessing a new phenomenon of left-leaning non-Muslims who identify with Islamism: George Galloway's Respect party members are a fine example of this. When non-Jews and non-Muslims can share political ideologies set up in the name of faith, it illustrates that these movements, in essence, are not faith-driven, but political developments that have a potential to appeal to various sections of the political spectrum, irrespective of religious affiliation. Islamism pits itself against socialism and capitalism, not other religions.

    Prior to the Holocaust, Zionism was a pariah movement among Europe's Jewish communities. Rabbis chastised Zionists for abusing religion and religious identity. And yet, with the inhumane onslaught against European Jews in the 1940s, Zionism gained acceptance and respectability. Today, across the Arab world, Islamism is on the cusp of gaining acceptance in the Arab street as political strangulation, economic suffering and social frustration reach unprecedented levels. For five decades, Muslim scholars, the ulama, have warned against Islamism - but for how much longer?

    The recent violent outburst of Hamas in Gaza, killing Fatah members and overtaking government buildings, brought smiles to the faces of many an Islamist in Britain and beyond. Today, Islamist terrorism in pursuit of a utopian Islamist state is a global reality. But we would be ill-served if we forgot the Zionist terrorism of the notorious Stern Gang, assassination of British personnel, raids on Palestinian villages, and the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in 1946. Disregard for the sanctity of human life is a hallmark of both Zionism and Islamism.

    Just as Israel is an expansionist state which remains in occupation of the Golan Heights, Islamists plan for a state that would have an occupying army to support ever-expanding borders (see Hizb ut-Tahrir's draft constitution). Just as Zionists claim territory based on notions of "Jewish land" and God-given rights, Islamists wish to reconquer India and Spain as "Muslim land", once ruled by Muslim monarchs.

    Zionists have achieved their state; Islamists are busy trying out every conceivable option to bring their dream Zion to fruition. For centuries, Jewish people said "Next year in Jerusalem", and for decades for now, Islamists have been repeating "Caliphate by next Ramadan". I did this for three Ramadans before realising I had been sold a pup and so abandoned Islamism, and slowly rediscovered Islam. There is a world of difference between Islam and Islamism, as there is between Judaism and Zionism.

    While millions across the world make the distinction between Zionism and Judaism, to date that distinction is not yet clear for most of us when it comes to Islam. Islamism is not Islam, regardless of the claims of "Muslim spokesmen". To condemn Israeli excesses is not anti-semitic; and to criticise Islamism is not to be Islamophobic.

    Among my closest friends, I count American Jews. As a Muslim, I see Jews as cousins-in-faith, the descendants of Jacob. In The Islamist, I denounce suicide bombings and support a two-state solution to the question of Palestinian nationhood, as endorsed by Muslim scholars at al-Azhar in Egypt. So I don't come to this as an enemy of Israel.

    My problem lies with marketing political ideologies as religion. Whether it is evangelical Christianity in the United States and their religious support for rightwing Republicans, or Zionism posing as Judaism, or Islamism masquerading as Islam - all three are equally guilty of misleading people, creating conflicts and corrupting three of the world's greatest religions.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...o?ito=newsnow&

    I just thought the fact it was in the entertainment section was priceless.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
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    The teddy bear thing is no more that an attempt to drive out any western ideals that may "pollute" their "country".

    The Zionism and Islamism thing in the Guardian is simply beyond contempt. A part of me hopes Eddie lives to feel the difference full on.
    As a youth I used to weep in butcher's shops.

  4. #4
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Having debated a redefinition of anti-semitism, which is not without merit, even though I disagree with it, lets imagine a small "re-definition" to take a quick peak at the white elephant sitting in grandpa's chair in the living room:

    Jewish Self-Determination and Islamism have more in common than their adherents think: both are dangerous political ideologies posing as religious movements.
    Ed Husain

    The only meeting place for a Muslim and a Jew is on the battlefield." So began the leaflet we in Hizb ut-Tahrir distributed across Muslim communities in Britain in the 1990s. We supported this war cry by backpatting our comrades in Hamas and refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist. Behind every single world event, from the Holocaust to 9/11, Arab Islamists blamed a global Zionist conspiracy. Similarly, in Jewish circles, Jewish Self-Determinists from Binyamin Netanyahu to Daniel Pipes have made careers out of lambasting Islamists. But are Islamists and Jewish Self-Determinists really all that different, despite their blatant enmity? I think not.

    Jewish Self-Determination and Islamism are both political perversions of ancient Abrahamic faiths of Judaism and Islam. They were both born out of protest and anger: Jewish Self-Determination in response to tsarist pogroms and Islamism as a retort to colonialism. The heavy political content of both ideologies came from men who had no theological training in the centuries-old traditional understanding of the Torah or the Koran. Theodore Herzl, an Austrian journalist, mapped out Jewish Self-Determination in an age of ubiquitous nationalism. Syed Qutb, an Egyptian literary critic, was the chief ideologue for Islamism. And yet they appealed to people of religious faith. Or did they?

    Some of the most ardent Jewish Self-Determinists have been non-Jews, not least George W Bush and droves of evangelical, literalist Christians. Increasingly, here in Britain, we are witnessing a new phenomenon of left-leaning non-Muslims who identify with Islamism: George Galloway's Respect party members are a fine example of this. When non-Jews and non-Muslims can share political ideologies set up in the name of faith, it illustrates that these movements, in essence, are not faith-driven, but political developments that have a potential to appeal to various sections of the political spectrum, irrespective of religious affiliation. Islamism pits itself against socialism and capitalism, not other religions.

    Prior to the Holocaust, Jewish Self-Determination was a pariah movement among Europe's Jewish communities. Rabbis chastised Jewish Self-Determinists for abusing religion and religious identity. And yet, with the inhumane onslaught against European Jews in the 1940s, Jewish Self-Determination gained acceptance and respectability. Today, across the Arab world, Islamism is on the cusp of gaining acceptance in the Arab street as political strangulation, economic suffering and social frustration reach unprecedented levels. For five decades, Muslim scholars, the ulama, have warned against Islamism - but for how much longer?

    The recent violent outburst of Hamas in Gaza, killing Fatah members and overtaking government buildings, brought smiles to the faces of many an Islamist in Britain and beyond. Today, Islamist terrorism in pursuit of a utopian Islamist state is a global reality. But we would be ill-served if we forgot the Zionist terrorism of the notorious Stern Gang, assassination of British personnel, raids on Palestinian villages, and the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in 1946. Disregard for the sanctity of human life is a hallmark of both Jewish Self-Determination and Islamism.

    Just as Israel is an expansionist state which remains in occupation of the Golan Heights, Islamists plan for a state that would have an occupying army to support ever-expanding borders (see Hizb ut-Tahrir's draft constitution). Just as Jewish Self-Determinists claim territory based on notions of "Jewish land" and God-given rights, Islamists wish to reconquer India and Spain as "Muslim land", once ruled by Muslim monarchs.

    Jewish Self-Determinists have achieved their state; Islamists are busy trying out every conceivable option to bring their dream Zion to fruition. For centuries, Jewish people said "Next year in Jerusalem", and for decades for now, Islamists have been repeating "Caliphate by next Ramadan". I did this for three Ramadans before realising I had been sold a pup and so abandoned Islamism, and slowly rediscovered Islam. There is a world of difference between Islam and Islamism, as there is between Judaism and Jewish Self-Determination.

    While millions across the world make the distinction between Jewish Self-Determination and Judaism, to date that distinction is not yet clear for most of us when it comes to Islam. Islamism is not Islam, regardless of the claims of "Muslim spokesmen". To condemn Israeli excesses is not anti-semitic; and to criticise Islamism is not to be Islamophobic.

    Among my closest friends, I count American Jews. As a Muslim, I see Jews as cousins-in-faith, the descendants of Jacob. In The Islamist, I denounce suicide bombings and support a two-state solution to the question of Palestinian nationhood, as endorsed by Muslim scholars at al-Azhar in Egypt. So I don't come to this as an enemy of Israel.

    My problem lies with marketing political ideologies as religion. Whether it is evangelical Christianity in the United States and their religious support for rightwing Republicans, or Jewish Self-Determination posing as Judaism, or Islamism masquerading as Islam - all three are equally guilty of misleading people, creating conflicts and corrupting three of the world's greatest religions.
    Aside from blatant lies and obvious disinformation, and the pathetic; my best friends are American Jews bit, the author has the audacity to compare nice ripe apples with spoiled oranges...

  5. #5
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    Ed Husain's Blatant Propaganda and Moral Equivalence

    What he deliberately misses is that Zionism is nothing more than the idea of self determination for the Jewish people. It's the concept that the Jewish people like ALL other peoples of this world deserve their own country.

    Zionism is most definitely not about colonisation or expansionism. The fact that Israel's haters oversimplify the situation and claim that Zionism is the cause of "O-C-C-U-P-T-I-O-N" and/or settlements, doesn't mean that it's really so! They would be better advised to look at the historical context of how this situation came about. Any impartial observer would quickly conclude that it wasn't the fault of Zionism! At best, if one would want to be generous to the Arabs and to the Palestinian Arabs, the conclusion would have to be that SOME right wing Israelis believe that it's their right to keep SOME of the land which Israelis spilt their blood and died in wars that they didn't want, wars that they were forced to wage as a result of Arab fanaticism and refusal to acknowledge the right of Jews to part of Palestine (the two state solution). And it needs to be emphasised that MANY other Israelis, WHO ARE ALSO ZIONISTS, were ALWAYS willing to give up most of that conquered land in exchange for a FAIR AND LASTING REAL PEACE. AND ARE STILL WILLING TO DO SO, BUT NOT FOR THE MAKE BELIEVE PROMISES, LIES and OFTEN BLATANT ADMISSIONS OF ARABS WHO STILL HOPE TO SECRETLY OR NOT SO SECRETLY, DESTROY ISRAEL!
    Idealism increases in direct proportion to one's distance from the problem.
    Author: John Galsworthy 1867-1933, British Novelist, Playwright

  6. #6
    varian
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mediocrates View Post
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...o?ito=newsnow&

    I just thought the fact it was in the entertainment section was priceless.

    Now remind us all again...these are the peaceful members of what religion???

  7. #7
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    She's just lucky that that stuffed bear wasnt a stuffed dog, or worse a stuffed pig.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Kenneth's Avatar
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    A number of British Muslims protested outside the Sudanese Embassy. Some brought their own teddy bears. Nice touch some British Muslims. A smiley face for you .

    Double frown face for this nimrod :

    Letters:
    Blasphemy caused by cuddly animals

    Saturday December 1, 2007
    The Guardian

    It's right that we reflect on the appalling human-rights record of Sudan. But is not the bear which was to go home with the children not also an opportunity to see ourselves as others do? Our encouragement to our children to anthropomorphise wild animals is a baffling feature of our culture. The children's sections of bookshops offer little more than a choice between stories of white children or talking animals. Where does it all lead? Urban pets, Animal Liberation and more spending on pet food than the world's poor have to feed themselves. Many Muslims find our relationships with dogs particularly distasteful, not least in loving them for their companionship. I suppose we must have been doing it since we started breeding them in our post-glacial caves. No wonder we are muddled enough to think calling a stuffed bear Muhammad is OK on the grounds that so many Muslims name their sons after him.
    Tom Snow
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    As a youth I used to weep in butcher's shops.

  9. #9
    KettleWhistle
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    ^^^ LOL After reading this stuff from al-Guardian, I'm ready to go back to Weekly World News. Hope it's still in print.

  10. #10
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
    A number of British Muslims protested outside the Sudanese Embassy. Some brought their own teddy bears. Nice touch some British Muslims. A smiley face for you .

    Double frown face for this nimrod :
    This one got a response.

    MPAC Appalled by Sudanese Jailing of Teacher for Naming Teddy Bear

    November 30, 2007


    The Muslim Public Affairs Council today expressed its disgust with the Sudanese court decision to jail and beat a British teacher who allowed her students to name a class teddy bear "Muhammad."
    SEE: "Calls in Sudan for Execution of British Teacher" (New York Times, 11/30/07)

    The hundreds of protesters, some waving ceremonial swords, outside the presidential palace denouncing the teacher and calling for her execution are falling into a pathetic trap by making a story out of nothing. The leaflets condemned Gibbons as an "infidel" and accused her of "the pollution of children's mentality" by her actions.

    "Jailing Ms. Gibbons is the real insult to Islam in this case," said MPAC Communications Director Edina Lekovic. "Invoking Islamic law to jail and deport her for this insignificant class project is absurd and appalling."
    Gillian Gibbons was given 15 days in jail yesterday after she was convicted of insulting Islam after asking her seven-year-old students to pick their favorite name for the new class mascot, which she was using to aid lessons about animals and their habitats. She was cleared of charges of inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs. British leaders expect that a deal will be reached, and Gibbons will be released and deported.

    Resorting to violence in order to "defend" Islam and the Prophet is a violation of both the Quran and Prophet's own example. The sanctity of human life and human accountability are core Islamic tenets. In response to those who subjected him to repeated ridicule and contempt, Prophet Muhammad offered kindness and forgiveness rather than anger, hate or violence. Muslims should not pervert the legacy of the Prophet by making Islam appear intolerant and violent.


    http://www.mpac.org/article.php?id=570

  11. #11
    Parsi
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    Resorting to violence in order to "defend" Islam and the Prophet is a violation of both the Quran and Prophet's own example. The sanctity of human life and human accountability are core Islamic tenets. In response to those who subjected him to repeated ridicule and contempt, Prophet Muhammad offered kindness and forgiveness rather than anger, hate or violence. Muslims should not pervert the legacy of the Prophet by making Islam appear intolerant and violent.
    What the Sudanese did has deep roots in Mohammed's teachings. I'm so amazed at level of fact twisting by Muslims.

    Let's see an example of "the legacy of the Prophet". Let's see how tolerant Islam really was at the time of Mohammed:

    The killing of Asma bint Marwan:

    "When the apostle heard what she had said he said, "Who will rid me of Marwan's daughter?" Umayr bin Adiy al-Khatmi who was with him heard him, and that very night he went to her house and killed her. In the morning he came to the apostle and told him what he had done and he [Muhammad] said, "You have helped God and His apostle, O Umayr!" When he asked if he would have to bear any evil consequences the apostle said, "Two goats won't butt their heads about her", so Umayr went back to his people."

    Abu Afak's death:

    "Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan

    No, No, No, No....
    You don't speak Arabic...
    You've taken things out of context... (I love this one)
    These are lies....

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    The Muslim Public Affairs Council today expressed its disgust with the Sudanese court decision to jail and beat a British teacher who allowed her students to name a class teddy bear "Muhammad."

    Yeah, when are they going to figure out to what exactly happened to the Jews of Morocco? What do you think andak?
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  13. #13
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mil View Post
    The Muslim Public Affairs Council today expressed its disgust with the Sudanese court decision to jail and beat a British teacher who allowed her students to name a class teddy bear "Muhammad."

    Yeah, when are they going to figure out to what exactly happened to the Jews of Morocco? What do you think andak?
    What I think is, that if every single one of them was killed instead of forced to move as is claimed- That'd be one sixth as much of a tragedy as an ethnic cleansing visited by the Nazis and one tenth of Stalin. What I think, is that if you want to find the group that treated the Jews worst in the twentieth century and a number of other centuries, you'd come up with Christians. What I think is that this over emphasis on the Arab diaspora and away from what happened in the same period in Eastern Europe is the stuff of politics. There was some very real persecution, but exaggerating it to make it sound like the Holocaust or worse is propaganda.

  14. #14
    Aysun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parsi View Post
    What the Sudanese did has deep roots in Mohammed's teachings. I'm so amazed at level of fact twisting by Muslims.

    Let's see an example of "the legacy of the Prophet". Let's see how tolerant Islam really was at the time of Mohammed:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan

    ..
    Sirah? what is it? who can prove that all those stories told in this book are true? you shouldn't confuse Islamic Law books with real book of Islam which is Quran. Islam is not what some idiots in Saudi Arabia or in Iran say or claim. they are idiots. they just twist religion for their own satisfation and use it to continue their dictatorships. and people who really believe those rules are more idiot and stupid than their dictators for sure.

  15. #15
    ShimonG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parsi View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_bint_Marwan

    No, No, No, No....
    You don't speak Arabic...
    You've taken things out of context... (I love this one)
    These are lies....
    ROFL.
    See what you've done now. You've taken away andak01's response. Now what is he going to blabber about?

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