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Thread: Comparing Zionism to Islamism in the Guardian

  1. #16
    ShimonG
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aysun View Post
    Sirah? what is it? who can prove that all those stories told in this book are true? you shouldn't confuse Islamic Law books with real book of Islam which is Quran. Islam is not what some idiots in Saudi Arabia or in Iran say or claim. they are idiots. they just twist religion for their own satisfation and use it to continue their dictatorships. and people who really believe those rules are more idiot and stupid than their dictators for sure.
    you mean the hadiths are, in your words, not real islam?? In your words then, those who follow anything except the qoran are idiots, correct? Then basically you are accusing (rightly, in my opinion) all of islam of being stupid and idiotic. Well done.

    Mind sending similar sentiments to the saudi and egyptian clergy??

  2. #17
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aysun View Post
    Sirah? what is it? who can prove that all those stories told in this book are true? you shouldn't confuse Islamic Law books with real book of Islam which is Quran. Islam is not what some idiots in Saudi Arabia or in Iran say or claim. they are idiots. they just twist religion for their own satisfation and use it to continue their dictatorships. and people who really believe those rules are more idiot and stupid than their dictators for sure.
    Let me clue you in on how it works here. The Quran, the Sunna, biographies of the Prophet, Tafsirs of the Quran and even old newsclippings are admissible evidence so long as they can be interpreted to portray the Prophet and Islam in a bad light. People here who don't believe a word of them will quote them in poor translation and out of context until the cows come home.

    But find a word of praise for the Prophet, or something that describes Islam as a religion of compassion, and we're lying, the book must be lying!

    I've never seen the first Surah of the Quran discussed here, even though Muslims recite it 17 times per day. Incidents related in the Hadiths where the Prophet showed mercy or kindness to Jews are entirely missing from discussion. For example, the Constitution of Medina is missing from discussion. In it we read:

    9. The Jew who follows us is surely entitled to our support and the same equal rights as any one of us. He shall not be wronged nor his enemy be assisted.

    16. The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war, so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.

    17. The Jews of Banu 'Awf are one nation with the Muslims; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs, their freedmen and their persons shall be protected except those who behave unjustly or sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families. The same applies to the Jews of Banu an-Najjar, Banu al-Harith, Banu Sa'idah, Banu Jusham, Banu al-Aws, Banu Tha'labah, and the Jafnah, clan of the Tha'labah and Banu al-Shua'ibah. Doing good deeds is a protection against sinfulness. The freedmen of Tha'labah are as themselves. The close friends of the Jews are as themselves.

    19. The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims bear theirs. Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document. Their condition must be one of mutual advice, consultation and charity rather than harm and aggression.

    20. No man is liable for a crime committed by his ally. Support must be given to him who is wronged. The Jews must spend of their wealth, along with the believers, so long as fighting continues.



    25. The people of this document are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to make peace and maintain it, they must do so; and if they make a similar demand on the Muslims, it must be carried out except with one who insists on fighting against their religion.

    26. To every small group belongs the share which is their due as members of the larger group which is party to this covenant. The Jews of the Aws and their clients, are entitled to the same rights as any other party to this document, together with the goodness and charity from all parties to it. Charity and good deeds exclude sinfulness and wrongdoing.


    http://www.islamic-study.org/Islam%2...20Violence.htm

  3. #18
    Aysun
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShimonG View Post
    you mean the hadiths are, in your words, not real islam?? In your words then, those who follow anything except the qoran are idiots, correct? Then basically you are accusing (rightly, in my opinion) all of islam of being stupid and idiotic. Well done.

    Mind sending similar sentiments to the saudi and egyptian clergy??
    well if this how you understood then you can also include yourself into that group

  4. #19
    Aysun
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    I've never seen the first Surah of the Quran discussed here, even though Muslims recite it 17 times per day. Incidents related in the Hadiths where the Prophet showed mercy or kindness to Jews are entirely missing from discussion. For example, the Constitution of Medina is missing from discussion. In it we read:
    Honestly I am not expecting a praise for Quran or Muhammed in this forum. but this much hate towards muslims sometimes really makes me sick. as if all those Christians in history hadn't killed the millions of Jews, but Muslims did. anyway, Turks are also muslims, Turks also believe in Quran and Muhammed, and Jews were always and always will be welcomed in our country. but hey, as you said there must be something wrong with Turks. Maybe they are not true Muslims but the fake ones! ah how didn't I think about this before? silly me

  5. #20
    Senior Member bararallu's Avatar
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    Aysun,

    I wouldnt jump to conclusions as a general thing. Unlike Muslims and Christians, Jews have for the last 2000 years been between a rock and a hard place. Aside from that, unlike Christianity and Islam + any given nation, our religion (or derivative culture) has always been tied at the hip of our nationality. To understand our position in Europe is one exercise, to understand it in the ME is yet another. Andak likes to roll out a beauty contest... this is not, I believe, what most forum members are interested in discussing. Most of us know that more Jews died in the Crusades than Muslims, just as most of us know that Mohammad and his happy band killed & forcefully converted some and banished the rest of the Jews from Arabia, the Quranic, and Hadit, justifications notwithstanding. Even now Jews are mistreated in a few places based on Sharia, or more to the point: the people who enact it and enjoy some of it's more sadistic application. This is not to say any religious law cannot be sadistic or self serving.

    Indeed, no one here is saying that Jews haven't done bad things in the past, in the old Levant, millennia ago. We, collectively, just wont stoop to that barbarism again, if we have a choice. Religions can certainly be interpreted, no less peoples hearts, and the wills of nations through history. I also predict you are not a practitioner of neither revolutionary Shiism or Arabist Selafiism, am I correct? If said practitioners did not exist among our enemies, Israelis would never even broach the subject of Islam, online or otherwise. It would be a pure ethnic fight, cousin against cousin, as it has been since time immemorial. Bloody but ultimately addressable- not unlike some of the conflicts that have embroiled the Turkish nation in the past and present. The overarching religious aspect, is not the qualification of the Jews, it is largely imposed on us. What you hear is a reaction, not so much the fanning of any flames. Would you disagree?

  6. #21
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aysun View Post
    Honestly I am not expecting a praise for Quran or Muhammed in this forum. but this much hate towards muslims sometimes really makes me sick. as if all those Christians in history hadn't killed the millions of Jews, but Muslims did. anyway, Turks are also muslims, Turks also believe in Quran and Muhammed, and Jews were always and always will be welcomed in our country. but hey, as you said there must be something wrong with Turks. Maybe they are not true Muslims but the fake ones! ah how didn't I think about this before? silly me
    Salamu alaykim,

    I have some close friends that are Turkish Sufis. They introduced me to the teachings of Fethullah Gulen. I was very impressed by the quality of people they are and how they walk the walk of being honest and upstanding leaders in the community.

  7. #22
    Aysun
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    Salamu alaykim,

    I have some close friends that are Turkish Sufis. They introduced me to the teachings of Fethullah Gulen. I was very impressed by the quality of people they are and how they walk the walk of being honest and upstanding leaders in the community.

    Fethullah Gulen is the biggest charlatan of all. he is no different than the charlatans in Saudia Arabia and Iran who are using the religion to dictate people, to use people for their own dark interests. why don't you ask your precious friends about the reasons that CIA secures him?

    It is a very big shame to see Turkish Sufis with this charlatan. and who said that we need a leader in our community?? we already have the religious leaders like Rumi, like Yunus. and we already have our honest and brilliant leader, Ataturk.

  8. #23
    varian
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    "Ataturk - Chivalry in victory."

    "Those heroes who shed their blood and lost their lives… you are now lying in the soil of a friendly country. Therefore rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side here in this country of ours… You, the mothers who sent their sons from far away countries, wipe away your tears. Your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land, they have become our sons as well."

    The words of Ataturk on the monument at ANZAK Cove.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk

  9. #24
    savvy
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    Esoteric Islam and Nazism

    By M. SABEHEDDIN

    Baron Rudolf von Sebottendorff, the chief architect of the Thule Society, was born Rudolf Glauer in Silesia in November, 1875. After an early life at sea and exploring distant lands, Rudolf found himself in Turkey where he was adopted by an aged Austrian nobleman, becoming Rudolf Sebottendorff.

    It was during this Turkish phase of Rudolf Sebottendorff’s life (he actually became a Turkish citizen) that he acquired his vast knowledge of the teachings and techniques of both Oriental and Occidental mysticism. Sebottendorff was initiated into the Muslim Bektashi Dervishes and studied alchemy, astrology and Rosicrucianism.

    In 1910, while living in Istanbul, Sebottendorff founded his own secret society based on a combination of Islamic Sufi mysticism, masonry, alchemy and anti-Bolshevik ideology. He fought heroically in the Balkan War of 1912-13 and directed the Turkish Red Crescent. He was also named Master of the Order of Rose Garland (Rosenkrantz). Years later he titled his autobiographical novel Der Talisman des Rosenkreuzers (The Rosicrucian Talisman), confirming a special link with the original Rosicrucian Order.

    Regarding Sebottendorff’s Turkish experience, Francis King says:

    “It is reported that he became acquainted with the former variety of esotericism (oriental mysticism) by means of direct personal contacts with initiates of various Dervish Orders. There is no reason to doubt this, for Sebottendorff unquestionably knew a great deal about Islamic mysticism, particularly about Sufism in all its aspects.” (Satan and Swastika)

    In 1913 Sebottendorff returned to Germany fortified with a vast knowledge and substantial funds from his inheritance. During the next few years he made extensive contacts with the leading members of the ‘mystic-political’ groups rapidly proliferating in Germany at this time. An able organiser and writer, Sebottendorff soon gained the attention of Herman Pohl of the Germanen Order. In the closing days of World War I, Sebottendorff laboured energetically to spread his occult-nationalist doctrines through the establishment of two newspapers, Runen and Munchener Beobachter (eventually purchased by the Nazi Party to become its official journal under the name Volkisher Beobachter).

    Sebottendorff claimed his mission was to reveal certain arcane secrets thereby reviving the forgotten Ancient Wisdom, while simultaneously launching a counter to what he saw as the malevolent forces engulfing Europe. The rituals of the Thule had as their aim, the same as that of all authentic esoteric groups, namely dissolving the ‘small self’ so that the ‘divine self’ could become manifest. Sebottendorff taught:

    “Once come to the end of our training, we sense our terrestrial body becoming more and more a stranger to us. We cross beyond it. We see distinctly that it has become dust and ashes. It is the lowest point that can be attained, that where the shadows of death and their terrors involve us. It is for this reason that the ancient Oriental Freemasons received into their community nothing but courageous men because the tests reserved for the neophyte were very harsh. Courage and endurance were the two principle virtues that were necessary.”

    Following the murder of seven prominent Thulists by the Communists on April 30, 1919, we know an intense struggle broke out within the Thule Society. This struggle was to have a dramatic and incredibly far reaching effect not only on Germany, but the entire world.

    From the few records made public by the Secret Chiefs of Thule, we know that corrupt and sinister forces, only identified as the “brothers of darkness”, tried to gain control of the Society and reverse its authentic spiritual current. They sought to invert the original mission of Thule and produce a counterfeit image. This led the few true initiates to withdraw from Thule and the society declined, until in 1923 Baron Sebottendorff fled Germany for Turkey. The following year he published Praxis of old Turkish Freemasonry, a study of the practice of Islamic alchemy that influenced the novelist Gustav Meyrink.


    In Before Hitler Came Sebottendorff offers a detailed discussion of the importance of Islam and the Ancient Wisdom that he felt gave the Muslim faith a special dynamism. “Islam,” he wrote, “is not a static religion; quite the contrary its vitality is greater than Christianity.”

    Sebottendorff believed that the esoteric tradition of Islam, particularly Sufism, was the purest stream of Ancient Wisdom and that it had nourished European occultism through the Rosicrucians, alchemists and authentic Freemasons of the Middle Ages. He claimed:

    “No one can accuse me of profanation, nor of sacrilege in uncovering the course of these mysteries...It is the means that the communities of dervishes traditionally use in order to acquire special strength by means of unusual techniques. They are, for the most part, men who aspire to the highest rite, that from which come those who have been prepared for their missions as spiritual leaders of Islam...This high rite is the practical basis of Freemasonry, and it inspired in times past the work of the alchemists and of the Rosicrucians...But to reply to the accusation of my being guilty of some kind of treachery: I say to you plainly that this book has been written on the instructions of the leaders of the Order.” (Bevor Hitler Kam as cited by Jean-Michel Angebert, The Occult and the Third Reich)

    Sebottendorff then proceeds to explain why “the leaders of the Order” directed him to write Before Hitler Came:

    “A vast organization of disbelief, of monstrous proportions, intends to bend to its will the civilized world. The religious institutions have been so gravely weakened that they are not even capable of pulling themselves together, let alone putting up a united front. If spiritual leaders do not come forth in the West, chaos may bring down everything into the abyss. In this kind of danger, the Moslem Brotherhood recalled that tradition had it that there was a time, in Europe, when men possessed ultimate knowledge...The imminent danger dispelled every objection to the publication (of this work).” (Bevor Hitler Kam as cited by Angebert, op. cit.)

    Sebottendorff often spoke of the rediscovery of some lost thread of knowledge that once was “a torrent which nourished everything at the time of primitive Christianity, and which in the Middle Ages gave rise to the most marvellous civilisations”. His references to “communities of dervishes” and a “Moslem Brotherhood” point us to the custodians of this lost Wisdom.

    Rene Alleau relates that Sebottendorff also wrote that: “...‘secret Muslim Masters’ had entrusted him with the mission of ‘illuminating’ Germany through the revelation of the secrets of advanced magic and initiation into ancient Oriental mysteries.” (Hitler et les Societes Secretes)

    How does one evaluate or reconcile Sebottendorff’s Oriental Islamic mysticism with the Thule Society’s stated aim to revive pagan ‘Aryan’ culture, symbolism, and mythology? The two traditions are not as mutually exclusive as they may first appear. E.H. Palmer, in his widely respected 19th century text Oriental Mysticism, held that Sufism is “the development of the Primaeval religion of the Aryan race”. Both the Rosicrucians and the Freemasons of Europe find the ultimate source of their teachings in the Orient. Sufi-European links are discernible in much of the West’s hidden history.

    A 9th century Celtic cross, now in the British Museum, incorporates the Islamic Arabic declaration Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim, suggesting close connections. The Sufi Master, Hakim Jami, said that Sufism predated the Prophet Mohammed, declaring that Plato, Hippocrates, Pythagoras and Hermes were part of an unbroken line of Sufic transmission. As an initiate of Islamic mysticism, Sebottendorff could rightly call himself a Rosicrucian, a Muslim Brother, and an Odinist.

    (From New Dawn No. 41, March-April 1997) www.newdawnmagazine.com

  10. #25
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aysun View Post
    Fethullah Gulen is the biggest charlatan of all. he is no different than the charlatans in Saudia Arabia and Iran who are using the religion to dictate people, to use people for their own dark interests. why don't you ask your precious friends about the reasons that CIA secures him?

    It is a very big shame to see Turkish Sufis with this charlatan. and who said that we need a leader in our community?? we already have the religious leaders like Rumi, like Yunus. and we already have our honest and brilliant leader, Ataturk.
    Let me tell you something. The Turkish culture center I visited that they helped to build displayed a large picture of Ataturk and the Turkish flag prominently. In America where anything remotely associated with Islam is despised, and where Turkey is considered the bottom of the barrel of Europe, these people are putting their best foot forward and introducing people to Turkish food, culture and language in a positive way. You should be proud to have such ambassadors.

  11. #26
    andak01
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    Esoteric Islam and Nazism


    Could you post a link to not so Esoteric Christianity and Naziism? Lutheranism and Naziism? Catholicism and Naziism? You want to pretend that Islam had a greater influence on German Christians than Christianity? Want to pretend that the Germans didn't already have a centuries long history of persecuting Jews? Go pretend!

  12. #27
    scattergood
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aysun View Post
    Honestly I am not expecting a praise for Quran or Muhammed in this forum. but this much hate towards muslims sometimes really makes me sick. as if all those Christians in history hadn't killed the millions of Jews, but Muslims did. anyway, Turks are also muslims, Turks also believe in Quran and Muhammed, and Jews were always and always will be welcomed in our country. but hey, as you said there must be something wrong with Turks. Maybe they are not true Muslims but the fake ones! ah how didn't I think about this before? silly me
    This is a very optimistic and rosy view of Turkish / Jewish relations. As somebody who has lived in a Turkish Jewish emigrant community for many years I can tell you the family stories are MUCH different than 'we always felt welcome in our old homes in the Ottoman Empire, it was so great, we can't wait to leave here and go back to the old days.' It is much more like 'well, thank G-d we got out of there. It was better than some of the alternatives, but it wasn't great."

  13. #28
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    I tell you what, why don't you be an atheist, clean your brain and be friends all together? You won't bother what Mohammed, David, Jesus said, what Torah, Qoran, Bible says... You will be discussing same stuff over and over again.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Posted by Andak01:


    In America where anything remotely associated with Islam is despised, and where Turkey is considered the bottom of the barrel of Europe, these people are putting their best foot forward and introducing people to Turkish food, culture and language in a positive way.

    Really? Regular American does not even know where Turkey is and simply does not care. As much as a regular Turk thinks that Chicago is a gansta-town. As far as "Anything associated with Islam" you mean similar to denying ethnic cleansing of Jews from Morocco.

    You should be proud to have such ambassadors.

    ? The La-Turka restaraunt on Lincoln and Clark in Chicago is one of my most favorite places to eat - and they have belly dancers as well By far one of my most favorite places to eat is Pita Inn opened by Palestinians in Skokie back in the 80s. If you know what is Skokie.....
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

  15. #30
    Aysun
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    Let me tell you something. The Turkish culture center I visited that they helped to build displayed a large picture of Ataturk and the Turkish flag prominently. In America where anything remotely associated with Islam is despised, and where Turkey is considered the bottom of the barrel of Europe, these people are putting their best foot forward and introducing people to Turkish food, culture and language in a positive way. You should be proud to have such ambassadors.
    and let me tell you something. those are all fake, cover up. we have Turkish student association groups in US. check out the link : http://www.ataa.org/
    if you wanna learn about Turkey why don't you go to their center instead of Fethullah center? also we have very good Turkish restaurants all around US. almost in every city. if they wanna have a taste of Turkish food they can easily go to one of them. they don't need to go to Fethullah center for that!

    by the way, I know what some US people think about Turkey. and you know what, I don't give a damn about it. in Turkey US is the most hated country right now (not people, the country). so does US do anything about it? so why should we?

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