Question about a story in Torah regarding working on Shabbat.

[Haifa]

Ok, my question is about the origin of the story about Pigs and Apes that muslims use. I want to see if it is stolen from the Torah, or if it is Muslim invention.


_______________

The story goes like this:

thousands of years ago, a Jewish tribe used to live near a sea. All men of that tribe were fishermen, and they relied on hunting whales. The problem was the during week days, no whales came near the shore, but on the Shabbat, hundreds of whales came there. But no one could hunt the whales because they were forbidden to work on the Shabbat. The sad thing is that this happened everyweek. After several months, a group of men decided to hunt on the Shabbat. Their families tried to stop them, but they could not.

When the shabbat came, those men went to the shore, and started hunting whales. So God felt mad because they worked on the Shabbat, and turned them into apes and pigs.

This is how the jews became the "Sons of Apes and Pigs"

_____________


Now the question is, is there a story like this in the Torah/Talmud/Mishnah/Midrash that muslims used to VARIFY their clames? Or is the story ENTIRELY a muslim invention?

Can someone, preferebly a religious person who has knowledge in these subjects, tell me?

[Moon]

GROINK??

Nah...

[ibrodsky]

You are confusing (intentionally?) the Torah with the Koran.

The vast majority of Jews are rational and don't believe that humans can suddenly turn into other species.

Unfortunately, Islam hasn't changed much since the 7th century, and there are some Muslims (mainly Islamists) who believe such stories because they suit their prejudiced and intolerant minds.

[Haifa]

no no no, the story (from what i've been told) IS in the koran. But we all know that many of the stuff of the quran was copied from the Torah.

So my question is: is this story, in particular, copied? or is it human invention?

And do not tell me you do not believe in maricles. What do you call the story of exodeus and the sea splitting in two? science?

[elke]

Originally posted by Haifa
no no no, the story (from what i've been told) IS in the koran. But we all know that many of the stuff of the quran was copied from the Torah.

So my question is: is this story, in particular, copied? or is it human invention?

And do not tell me you do not believe in maricles. What do you call the story of exodeus and the sea splitting in two? science?

This story has been invented by the same type of humans as the blood libel. If this story is actually in the Quran, any respect I've ever had for that book is gone .

I will have to check this out, however, since this is a major accusation against Islam you are making. Whales? Please!

[L@mplighterM]

Actually at one point in history there was person called trainspitter it was called trainspitter because it liked to spit on trains. The trains were dusty and so the wet spit would leave a little mark on the train.

One day it had spat on more than a 100 railroad cars and it was running out of spit. The sun was shinning that day and it was very hot even though it had rained the day before and there were no clouds in the horizon.

Its mouth was parched and dry and its lips had begun to crack. It was starting to dehydrate at a rapid rate. Finally it fell seemingly lifeless to the ground.

When it awoke it was in a railway yard in troll land. I’ve heard that trolls are nasty creatures when they want to be. This particular trainspitter wasn’t exactly popular with the trolls because trolls go to a lot of trouble making trains dusty and another popular pastime is posting stupid questions on forums.

Trainspitter managed to utter only one word “thirsty” and so the trolls gave it some troll water and presto trainspitter turned into a pig with a curly pink tail. Oink! Is all he could say! The next time trainspitter took a drink he turned into a monkey with a long furry tail. Chee chee is all that trainspitter could say.

Now everyone knows that there’s no escape from troll land and so trainspitter was destined to spend his remaining days alternating between a monkey and a pig.

I’m almost certain that some Muslim must have witnessed a similar event like this a long time ago when camelspitting was popular and he most likely told Mohammed. Mohammed needing a story for his writings incorporated the story into his book with some modifications.

[achaaban]

Ok, my question is about the origin of the story about Pigs and Apes that muslims use. I want to see if it is stolen from the Torah, or if it is Muslim invention.

There is no Muslim invensions, Mohamed came to ask the Arabs to believe in the God of the Jews, so all the stories must match.



_______________

The story goes like this:

thousands of years ago, a Jewish tribe used to live near a sea. All men of that tribe were fishermen, and they relied on hunting whales. The problem was the during week days, no whales came near the shore, but on the Shabbat, hundreds of whales came there. But no one could hunt the whales because they were forbidden to work on the Shabbat. The sad thing is that this happened everyweek. After several months, a group of men decided to hunt on the Shabbat. Their families tried to stop them, but they could not.

When the shabbat came, those men went to the shore, and started hunting whales. So God felt mad because they worked on the Shabbat, and turned them into apes and pigs.

This is how the jews became the "Sons of Apes and Pigs"

Is this story written in the Koran, and where? It must be the Palestinian version of interpretation of the Koran, which by the way is interpreted by Terrorist Sheikhs such as the late Sheikh Yassin .

According to the Palestinians the Koran was written because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Sarcastically, the word Palestinian is not mentioned once in the Koran.

The Palestinians do not exist in the whole message of the Koran, how did they become the center of attraction. The Koran is clearly talking to the people of Israel and not to the Palestinians.

The Jews could, for Palestinians be the sons of apes and pigs, for the balance of the world the people of Israel were the Chosen People. They were chosen to receive the first message of God. Anyone who reads the Koran will read this fact clearly as it is stated

Oh Bani Israel, remember the grace that I have given you, and that I have preferred you over the whole world. (2:47)

Oh Bani Israel Remember that we took the Covenant of the people of Israel, to believe in the one God, treat with kindness your parents, kindred, orphans and those is need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and practice regular charity, then you turned your back to your Covenant except a few among you, and then you backslid.” (2:83), and remember, Bani Israel, when we take your Covenant, that you do not shed the blood of your own, nor turn out yourselves and your own people out of their homes, you have ratified this Covenant and you are a witness to it.” (2:84).


Why will God choose the sons of Pigs and apes to receive his message of monotheism? I really wonder. And where are the Palestinians in this whole dialogue.

[andak01]

The story doesn't say that ALL Jews were turned into apes and monkeys. A certain group of the ones that neglected shabat were. In the Bible, people who do that receive the death penalty, so they got off pretty lightly.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

ALL Jews weren't turned into monkeys in the Quran and ALL Jews didn't kill Jesus according to the New Testament, but do hateful people care? No in either case.

[SteveK]

The story doesn't say that ALL Jews were turned into apes and monkeys. A certain group of the ones that neglected shabat were. In the Bible, people who do that receive the death penalty, so they got off pretty lightly.

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

ALL Jews weren't turned into monkeys in the Quran and ALL Jews didn't kill Jesus according to the New Testament, but do hateful people care? No in either case.

andak01,


We have another problem with this story of Muslim invention. Why would these Jews be eating whales? Whales are not kosher. Sea creatures must have fins and scales to be kosher. Salmon and Tuna are OK. Lobster, Shrimp, Squid are out.

[andak01]

andak01,


We have another problem with this story of Muslim invention. Why would these Jews be eating whales? Whales are not kosher. Sea creatures must have fins and scales to be kosher. Salmon and Tuna are OK. Lobster, Shrimp, Squid are out.

Better to read the original than what someone tells you about it. Nothing whatsoever about whales.

002.065
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Clear it was "those amongst you", not you in general.

007.163
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.

...
007.166
When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.166

That's it. No whales, fish.

[scattergood]

Better to read the original than what someone tells you about it. Nothing whatsoever about whales.

002.065
And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

Clear it was "those amongst you", not you in general.

007.163
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.

...
007.166
When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/007.qmt.html#007.166

That's it. No whales, fish.

Ahh, Andak01, up to your games again. Let's look at it in its entirety:

007.163
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression.

007.164
When some of them said: "Why do ye preach to a people whom Allah will destroy or visit with a terrible punishment?"- said the preachers:" To discharge our duty to your Lord, and perchance they may fear Him."

007.165
When they disregarded the warnings that had been given them, We rescued those who forbade Evil; but We visited the wrong-doers with a grievous punishment because they were given to transgression.

007.166
"When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

So in 164 it seems that Muslims asked Mohammed why he preached to 'a people' whome 'Allah will destroy'. It can't be that Mohammed was preaching to the one village he mentions for that is in the past and is the basis of his arguement against the Jews, nor is there any mention that he is even there. But let us turn to the commentators as seen in:

http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...rticle_id=4208


"But the hadith and earlier commentators believe that Allah transformed them literally. For example, Ibn Ishaq, an early and reliable biographer of Muhammad, takes the metamorphosis literally, and he has Muhammad calling the Medinan Jewish clan, Qurayzah, “brothers of monkeys.” Medieval commentator Ibn Kathir references Ibn Abbas, Muhammad’s cousin, who interpreted this metamorphosis literally, implying that Muhammad did too. The Iranian Medieval commentator Razi, widely respected even today, speculates that perhaps the “accidents” or appearances of the Jews were changed, but they kept their mental awareness. Even the Medieval mystic and commentator Ibn Arabi says that the transformation, at its base, is real and not metaphorical, though he puts mystical spins on the verse."


But, lest we think that this is just an issue of historical commentators, let's look at these jems:

"At the Sheikh Ijlin Mosque in Gaza, Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiris, employee in the Religious Affairs Ministry in the Palestinian Authority, uses the Battle of Badr (AD 624) as a rallying cry for his fellow jihadists to fight the Jews, who are the descendants of apes and pigs.

Then came the great battle of Badr, where the Muslims grew stronger. This brought the third stage of dealing with the Jewish existence in Al-Madina. We have tolerated you for a long time - you offspring of apes and pigs! We have tolerated you for a long time.

The Imam of the Al-Haram mosque in Mecca, Sheikh Abd Al-Rahman Al-Sudayis, explained in one of his sermons:

Read history and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil forefathers of the even more evil Jews of today: infidels, falsifiers of words, calf worshippers, prophet murderers, deniers of prophecies . . . the scum of the human race, accursed by Allah, who turned them into apes and pigs . . . These are the Jews – an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption . . . "

At the same link, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Saleh Al-‘Athimein said in a sermon at the Great Mosque in Al-‘Unayza, Arabia:

O Muslims, the Jews are treacherous and deceitful people over whom lies the curse and anger of Allah. They permitted what Allah forbade, with the lamest of excuses; therefore, He cursed them and turned them into apes and pigs. Allah sentenced them to humiliation anywhere they might be . . . .

Note how the Sheikh draws the inference for today: “Allah sentenced them to humiliation anywhere they might be.” This means the Jews of today.

So, while YOUR interpretation may be to narrowly construe things, historically and currently you are not the ascendant view. And even if you say the others are wrong in their interpretation, the point is that this IS how they use the texts, they the DO view Jews as pigs and monkeys, in their current views and are able to at least justify their views with Koranic texts.

[SteveK]

So, Islam holds the Jews as pigs and monkeys.
What should the world do with this information?

But, the Torah holds the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

When will the world wake up to this reality and act accordingly to root out this evil from among those who can call themselves members of humanity?

GENESIS: (16:11-12):

And an angel of HASHEM said to her, "Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; you shall name him Ishmael, for HASHEM has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-a$$ of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell."

God, ain't it the aweful truth.

[achaaban]

So, Islam holds the Jews as pigs and monkeys.
What should the world do with this information?

But, the Torah holds the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates.

When will the world wake up to this reality and act accordingly to root out this evil from among those who can call themselves members of humanity?


God, ain't it the aweful truth.

I do not see the Quote:

GENESIS: (16:11-12):

And an angel of HASHEM said to her, "Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; you shall name him Ishmael, for HASHEM has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-a$$ of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell."

Saying "the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates."

But I see you SteveK saying that " his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dewll" to mean the Arabs, when I cannot see the word Arab mentioned once in this verse.

[SteveK]

I do not see the Quote:

Saying "the Arabs, descendants of Ishmael, right in line with being murderers, torturers, and international pirates."

But I see you SteveK saying that " his hand against everyone, and everyone's hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dewll" to mean the Arabs, when I cannot see the word Arab mentioned once in this verse.

But, the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael.

I'm a descendant of the original Jewish pigs and monkeys spoken about in Islam. So, that makes me a pig and a monkey too,--- right?

[andak01]

So, while YOUR interpretation may be to narrowly construe things, historically and currently you are not the ascendant view. And even if you say the others are wrong in their interpretation, the point is that this IS how they use the texts, they the DO view Jews as pigs and monkeys, in their current views and are able to at least justify their views with Koranic texts.

What you are talking about above is classic anti-Semitism using classic symbols. If you had been listening to a Lutheran sermon during the Nazi era, what would you expect to hear. Still Lutherans exist among us today in less racist and political times.

If I choose to interpret the text in what is after all just as literal an interpretation as that Sheikh, do you deny me the right or the possibility to be moderate?