Finally, Obama's spiritual advisor outed

[wellofvow]

Whoa, andak, and take a deep breath.

This is what newsguy wrote:

We're now at an almost insane period in American history where a presidential candidate need not be patriotic, and not even pro-America.

And, as insane as it is to have someone like Obama being a front-runner for president, it's even more insane that a considerable part of the country agrees with him.

I suppose that the Obama crowd is similar to Israeli leftist Tali Fahima, who went to console the family of the Muslim terrorist who mass-murdered yeshiva students in cold blood. It's unbelievable, but people like that exist in droves both in Israel and in America.

What newsguy said about OBAMA was to call his patriotism and pro-Americanism into question, which, frankly, I question myself.

Newsguy compares to Tali Fahima the Obama "cheerleaders", who scream racism, divisiveness, and other charges against anyone who DARES to question the ABSOLUTE appropriateness of Obama as being PERFECTLY qualified to be president in spite of the paucity of his experience in anything and his mushy and vague statements.

It is at THIS point that it is newsguy who errs. Fahima was a TRAITOR, not a "leftist". She gave intelligence to Israel's enemy.

I do not agree that the far left of America, as much as I detest their hatemongering, are traitors. They are pathetic self-haters who adore their hair shirts. Obama has made their self-loathing a political platform. This does not make either Obama nor the cheerleaders traitors like Fahima. It is a long way from bashing America to betraying America. She is truly loathsome.

But this can easily turn into a slippery slope...... and it is this that really frightens me.

ANOTHER THING THAT FRIGHTENS ME IS THE RACE THING.

In the Victor Hanson article supplied by Medio:

Second, as the first African-American candidate to seriously contend for either party's nomination, Obama offers Americans a sort of collective redemption at home and admiration abroad.

When Obama's wife, Michelle, stated that she had never been proud of America until her husband ran for office, she made explicit what seems to be the campaign's implicit contract: Vote for Obama and, at last, America, you can prove you are not a racist country and finally heal centuries-old wounds.

Am I the only person on the planet to see the RACISM in this kind of reasoning?

[Yala]

The surprise is that blacks are so ungrateful to the Republican party

They also seem to forget that Lincoln was a Republican and that the Democrats started the KKK and Jim Crow.

[wellofvow]

Out of curiosity, since Fox News has been all over Obama's case about his "REAL" relationship with the DISgraceful Reverend Wright, I went back to the church's website, and went straight to "about us"....

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

There is a pretty strange uTube video of a white woman who is a "minister" in the "United Church of Christ" and claims that she travels an hour to attend services at the Trinity United Church of Christ from her home in Westchester Illinois because the congregation is so "warm and loving".

I find this pretty anomalous - my pc way of saying pretty unlikely - in that

- this woman is white and Westchester is 83% white, 7% black, MEDIAN (not "average", which is "mean" - and if you don't know the difference, look it up!) price of house is $325,000;

- according to the "about us" of the TUCC website (my cut-and-paste):
We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

Among the "10-point vision" are points:

4. A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

7. A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

and I would love to hear what is meant by:

8. A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

9. A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

10. A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

BTW, there is another video which is more of a promo for the TUCC, so a bit more believeable (honestly, this rich white lady regularly attending this in-your-face BLACK "we are Africans in Diaspora" congregation????).... and there are many flashes of Obama together with The Reverend.

What is Bush's church? the Clintons'? McCain's?

Seems to me that Trinity is advertising itself as being Obama's church, and Obama has not been shy in the past about his close relationship and admiration of the Reverend. All his tentative, walking-on-eggs backtracking is SO phony - JUST the sort of sordidness that I thought that Obama was so adamant and cute about "changing".

If you believe Obama, I have this bridge in Brooklyn that I'm selling, very reasonable price....

[Yala]

There is nothing wrong with #'s 4 & 7. I don't care at all that they have a "commitment" or affiliation to Africa. Their ancestors are from there, why shouldn't they try to help out there? I am glad and I hope that they make a difference in Africa like Oprah is trying to do.

The thing that does bother me is the fact that they stress that they are pretty much a black-only church and the fact that the pastor is anti-American and engages in conspiracy theory lunatic talk.

[andak01]

There is nothing wrong with #'s 4 & 7. I don't care at all that they have a "commitment" or affiliation to Africa. Their ancestors are from there, why shouldn't they try to help out there? I am glad and I hope that they make a difference in Africa like Oprah is trying to do.

I hope Africans learn about their fascinating cultures and get back in touch. However, the relationship between many blacks and Africa is bizarre. I see so many celebrity efforts focused on South Africa where no slaves came from and not enough being done in West Africa. Also, these Christians, many of whose ancestors had their religion forcebly stripped from them are often acting as missionaries or creating New Age mishmashes of African religions. I'm hoping to do more travel over there in the future.

The thing that does bother me is the fact that they stress that they are pretty much a black-only church and the fact that the pastor is anti-American and engages in conspiracy theory lunatic talk.

There hasn't been enough dialogue between whites and blacks about the issues that he brings up. That's how many of his wrong beliefs are allowed to fester. Truth be known, in the black community, his views aren't that extreme, and that shows just how far things have drifted.

[wellofvow]

There is nothing wrong with #'s 4 & 7. I don't care at all that they have a "commitment" or affiliation to Africa. Their ancestors are from there, why shouldn't they try to help out there? I am glad and I hope that they make a difference in Africa like Oprah is trying to do.

The thing that does bother me is the fact that they stress that they are pretty much a black-only church and the fact that the pastor is anti-American and engages in conspiracy theory lunatic talk.

I would agree with you, except for the following:

- The church has on its website a promo video of the church with many images of Obama.

- In the beginning of his campaign, Obama saw nothing "wrong" about associating himself with this church, and, more specifically, with Wright, the person.

- Only NOW, under intense pressure, is Obama playing semantics in damage control regarding Wright, the person.

- EVEN now, Obama refuses to repudiate Wright, the person, characterizing Wright as "an uncle", thus a member of his family. You cannot choose your family, is the implication, therefore Obama is attempting to go on offensive (offense the best defense) for "guilt by association".

Gee, I thought Obama was supposed to be a smart lawyer.
- WRIGHT IS NOT A MEMBER OF HIS FAMILY.
- OBAMA, OF HIS OWN FREE WILL, CHOSE WRIGHT'S CHURCH AND HAS REMAINED THERE FOR 20 YEARS.
- THEREFORE, THE ISSUE IS FAR FROM ANY BOGUS "guilt by association" - RATHER IT IS A JUDGMENT CALL ON THE PART OF OBAMA,
- AND IT IS PERFECTLY LEGITIMATE TO ASSESS A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE'S JUDGMENT. IN FACT, THAT'S WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT, duh.

- Next point, a major part of Obama's campaign, according to Obama himself, is to pull America together, have less divisiveness, blabla. Yet, he has been and continues to be a member of a congregation that is clearly divisive. The church PROMOTES ITSELF that they are a BLACK congregation, and that they are ethnocentered in AFRICA as BLACK PEOPLE.

Now, this is perfectly fine for the congregation. They can believe that they are aliens or that Jesus was black for all anyone should care.

It is NOT FINE for a black presidential candidate who puts LESS DIVISIVENESS high on his platform priorities, CHOOSES to remain in this congregation, REFUSES to repudiate a man who has sermonized to this congregation that the "white US government" is responsible for spreading AIDS among Blacks as a tactic for genocide, and has said on a television interview that although he had not heard any of the inflammatory sermons (and I'm giving him a pass on this), but that if he had, he would have left the church only "IF IT HAD BEEN REPEATED IN HIS HEARING".

- Wright retired last month (how convenient!), and the new administration is now claiming, in complete denial of all commonsense and, more importantly, denial of accountability, that the MEDIA is committing "character assassination" of the Reverend Wright!

Again, offense as the best defense.....

[varian]

Obama knew what Wright had been preaching.

Obama Attended Hate America Sermon
Sunday, March 16, 2008 7:14 PM
By: Ronald Kessler

Obama claims he was completely unaware that the Reverend Wright’s trademark preaching style at the Trinity United Church of Christ targeted “white” America.

Contrary to Senator Barack Obama’s claim that he never heard his pastor Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr. preach hatred of America, Obama was in the pews last July 22 when the minister blamed the “white arrogance” of America’s Caucasian majority for the world’s suffering, especially the oppression of blacks. ...


... If Obama’s claims are true that he was completely unaware that Wright’s trademark preaching style at the Trinity United Church of Christ has targeted “white” America and Israel, he would have been one of the few people in Chicago to be so uninformed. Wright’s reputation for spewing hate is well known.

In fact, Obama was present in the South Side Chicago church on July 22 last year when Jim Davis, a freelance correspondent for Newsmax, attended services along with Obama. [See: ”Obama’s Church: Cauldron of Division.”]

In his sermon that day, Wright tore into America, referring to the “United States of White America” and lacing his sermon with expletives as Obama listened. Hearing Wright’s attacks on his own country, Obama had the opportunity to walk out, but Davis said the senator sat in his pew and nodded in agreement. ...


... Apologists for Wright have said that what he says is normal in black churches, and many blacks claim such preaching cannot be understood by whites.

“If you’re black, it’s hard to say what you truly think and not upset white people,” the New York Times quoted James Cone as saying. Cone is a professor at Union Theological Seminary and the father of what is known as black liberation theology.

But Juan Williams, a Fox News commentator and author of “Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America,” tells Newsmax that Wright’s sermons reflect “the victim mindset that is so self-defeating in the black community and one that is played on by weak black leadership that chooses to have black people identified as victims rather than inspiring them as people who have overcome. In posing as victims, they say the most prejudiced and vicious things, not only about whites but about America. They call it theology. In fact, it’s nothing but bigotry.” ...


... Obama went on to explain away Wright’s anti-Zionist statements as being rooted in his anger over the Jewish state’s support for South Africa under its previous policy of apartheid. As with his claim that the award to Farrakhan was made because of his work with ex-offenders, Obama made that up. Wright’s statements denouncing Israel have not been qualified in any way. ...

http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/Obama.../16/80870.html

My main problem with what Wright has preached is that "all white" people are blamed instead of zeroing in on specific white people. Not only is that bigotry, but it is the height of cowardice. If specific names were mentioned, he would have been closer to the truth and also the target of possible liable suits. At least Bill Cosby had the fortitude to lay much of the blame back at the feet of the black leaders and the community in general. Much of Wright's rhetoric is similar to the same 'whitey tighty' crap offered on Stormfront. Nothing really new here!

[wellofvow]

I hope Africans learn about their fascinating cultures and get back in touch. However, the relationship between many blacks and Africa is bizarre. I see so many celebrity efforts focused on South Africa where no slaves came from and not enough being done in West Africa. Also, these Christians, many of whose ancestors had their religion forcebly stripped from them are often acting as missionaries or creating New Age mishmashes of African religions. I'm hoping to do more travel over there in the future.


There hasn't been enough dialogue between whites and blacks about the issues that he brings up. That's how many of his wrong beliefs are allowed to fester. Truth be known, in the black community, his views aren't that extreme, and that shows just how far things have drifted.

I quite agree.

andak, a question: Was the book "Roots" correct, and many of the abducted slaves were Moslems?

That would mean that an ethnocentric African-American congregation that feels that it is in "Diaspora" should be Moslem, not Christian...

I lived in the States for the first 23 years of my life, and am old enough to remember vividly as a teenager watching the civil rights revolution taking place real-time on TV. I think that Afro-Americans are angry, still feel victimized, and unfortunately, if what you say is correct (since I haven't lived in the US for nearly 40 years), they are still heavily into the blame-game instead of moving on, and really doing what Obama is mouthing in his campaign for president. I think that Afro-Americans are heavily conflicted - they want "equality" but they don't want equality as equals, they want to be GIVEN equality because they have been/still are VICTIMS.

As a Jew, this disturbs me. While killing Jews was much less frequent than killing blacks, there is a rich history in the US of anti-Jewish discrimination, "gentlemen's agreements" limiting residential opportunity, access to higher educational through quotas, no membership in exclusive clubs for business networking, and now, while the KKK is pretty much a thing of the past, we are seeing RISING rates of antisemitic vandalism, assault, and worse.

The point I want to make is that while blacks are still claiming victimization and the need for restitution because of the slavery of their ancestors, Jews have never done this. American Jews have never been a fraction as assertive as blacks have become. Jews do not riot when terrorists in America gun down Jews (remember Rodney King?). Pollard still remains imprisoned with no hope of parole although his crime was passing intelligence to an American ALLY - and American Jews are not outraged by this, they are embarrassed....

andak, I'm not sure what you mean by "There hasn't been enough dialogue between whites and blacks about the issues that he brings up. That's how many of his wrong beliefs are allowed to fester." Are you saying that blacks and whites should have "more dialogue" about the issue that the US spread AIDS among blacks as a tactic for genocide? What's to talk about, unless you believe that it's true? If someone does believe this, do you think he'd like to talk about it??

[andak01]

I quite agree.

andak, a question: Was the book "Roots" correct, and many of the abducted slaves were Moslems?

All you have to do is look at the makeup of the regions where slaves came from to see that's true. Gambia is 90% Muslim, Dakar, Senegal was the host of the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference) last week. I've been to Isle Goree where the slaves were transported from.

That would mean that an ethnocentric African-American congregation that feels that it is in "Diaspora" should be Moslem, not Christian...

Absolutely correct. The Christians were not powerful enough to hold the interior of Africa during the years of the slave trade, and that's why only the coastal towns were colonized.

Interesting aside- the boundaries of Gambia were created by running a gunboat down the Gambia river. The distance to either side of the river that artillery could be fired became the boundaries.

I lived in the States for the first 23 years of my life, and am old enough to remember vividly as a teenager watching the civil rights revolution taking place real-time on TV. I think that Afro-Americans are angry, still feel victimized, and unfortunately, if what you say is correct (since I haven't lived in the US for nearly 40 years),

"Moving on", ought to have a more positive connotation than simple total assimilation into white culture (a la Condi Rice and Colin Powell). The Black American culture has some valuable and unique contributions to extend to the rest of America. I say this as a white person myself. But when I think of many of the Americans I truly admire, they are black. For example, I just watched the inspirational film "Pursuit of Happiness". I highly recommend it. Christopher Gardner, upon whose life the film is based, was another that went to South Africa for his spiritual reunion with Africa. But anyway, his story is an inspiration and show that no barrier can hold someone who believes in himself.

...and now, while the KKK is pretty much a thing of the past, we are seeing RISING rates of antisemitic vandalism, assault, and worse.

Which is why I recommend a general interfaith concensus against religiously biased incitement.

The point I want to make is that while blacks are still claiming victimization and the need for restitution because of the slavery of their ancestors, Jews have never done this.

Never asked for reparations from Germany, Switzerland, the Arabs, etc.? That simply isn't true, but perhaps you forgot.

Are you saying that blacks and whites should have "more dialogue" about the issue that the US spread AIDS among blacks as a tactic for genocide?

Absolutely! Ask him what his sources are and destroy the argument at the source instead of just saying "You're stupid and crazy." Crazy and stupid people stand on corners and incite mobs. Make a cogent argument with evidence that utterly refutes him and share that with the mob.

What's to talk about, unless you believe that it's true? If someone does believe this, do you think he'd like to talk about it??

One on one it's a waste of time of course.

[Science0fTime]

I don't think ANY of you know anything more about Obama, McCain, or Clinton than you know about fornication!

So add your stupid rants for nothing else to do, if you will! You Israel have abandoned your roots. Or else you could counter the truth I speak.

So ANY of you step up and tell us who Obama is for starters. Then we might move on, but I doubt it.

William Sheffield III -
The One Who Conquers!!!

[varian]

Oh sage of sages, please feel free to enlighten us with your unfathomable understanding. Continue not to look down upon us (forum members) as worthless bags of primordial slime, but we beseech thee instead to correct our errors with thine eternal, omnipotent wisdom. Do not correct us out of anger lest we come to naught, but rather lift up and illuminate with thine infinite mercy and grace. Illuminate if you will!!!

[wellofvow]

Quote from wellofvow:
The point I want to make is that while blacks are still claiming victimization and the need for restitution because of the slavery of their ancestors, Jews have never done this.

Quote from andak:
Never asked for reparations from Germany, Switzerland, the Arabs, etc.? That simply isn't true, but perhaps you forgot.

Answer from wellofvow:
I was referring ONLY to the blacks of the Trinity United Church of Christ. Sorry I didn't make this clear. There is no Jewish congregation of which I am aware that has as a pillar of the congregation's belief system that members are victims, are in Diaspora (that is a given for all Jews living outside of Israel, and yet there are many Jewish congregations that reject this tenet), are owed reparations from Germany, the Arabs, whomever. This is an individual sort of right, not a "right" assumed by a congregation....

Quote from wellofvow:
Are you saying that blacks and whites should have "more dialogue" about the issue that the US spread AIDS among blacks as a tactic for genocide?

Quote from andak:
Absolutely! Ask him what his sources are and destroy the argument at the source instead of just saying "You're stupid and crazy." Crazy and stupid people stand on corners and incite mobs. Make a cogent argument with evidence that utterly refutes him and share that with the mob.

Answer from wellofvow:
riiiiiight. I'm supposed to allow some crazy hatemonger draw a mob of rabid fellow-crazies and confront them with - - - Habibi, this will never happen without accompaniment by anything less than a platoon of seasoned and fully armed Golani, thank you very much.

[Mediocrates]

Reparations are different from restitution. The Generation of the Shoah have been fighting to have restored to them that which was taken. Big difference.

[andak01]

Please wellofvow, too many colors make your messages hard to read and dilutes your points. I use [quote] for quotes [i] for quoted article text and OCCASIONALLY red or bold for emphasis. Nobody has complained about that, though they may be too busy complaining about what I say.

[andak01]

Reparations are different from restitution. The Generation of the Shoah have been fighting to have restored to them that which was taken. Big difference.

They are extremely close in meaning if not synonymous.

res·ti·tu·tion http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif/ˌrɛshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngtɪˈtuhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngʃən, -ˈtyu-/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[res-ti-too-shuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngn, -tyoo-]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.reparation made by giving an equivalent or compensation for loss, damage, or injury caused; indemnification.




rep·a·ra·tion http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (rěp'ə-rā'shən) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. <LI minmax_bound="true">The act or process of repairing or the condition of being repaired. <LI minmax_bound="true">The act or process of making amends; expiation. <LI minmax_bound="true">Something done or paid to compensate or make amends.
2. reparations</FONT minmax_bound="true"> Compensation or remuneration required from a defeated nation as indemnity for damage or injury during a war.

Synonyms: These nouns refer to something given in compensation for loss, suffering, or damage. Reparation implies recompense given to one who has suffered at the hands of another: "reparation for our rights at home, and security against the like future violations" (William Pitt).
Redress involves setting an injustice right; the term may imply retaliation or punishment: "There is no grievance that is a fit object of redress by mob law" (Abraham Lincoln).
Amends usually implies the giving of satisfaction for a minor grievance or lesser injury: How can I make amends for losing my temper?
Restitution is the restoration of something taken illegally: "He attempted to enforce the restitution of the Roman lands and cities" (George P.R. James).
Indemnity implies repayment or reimbursement: Homeowners demanded indemnity for the damages caused by the riot.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reparation

There is still a living generation of blacks who were threatened by bombs, lynched, denied jobs, denied mortgages, made to drink from separate fountains and use separate bathrooms and humiliated in every way thinkable. We have very conveniently forgotten this. Can these wrongs be righted through restitution/reparations? I doubt it.

Add to the above list church burnings. This has been a consistent feature of their treatment up to this day.

This list will shock you.
http://gbgm-umc.org/advance/Church-B.../methstats.stm