Home | Originally posted by A-Palestinian
In a free Nation, government would not care about what race its populus is, or what religion they happen to practice, or what culture they happen to gravitate to. In this respect, the government of a free nation is blind, and rightly so.
In order for a nation to be a nation it has to have a population base. Israeli's would have to be complete idiots to open the door to Muslims. How's that for a mathematical equation?
Israel is in a state of ethnic war since the turn of the 20th century. By defenition of ab ethnic war, the camps are drawn according to ethic affiliation. It is as much racist as the ethnic war itself. One can not accuse Israel in racism with out acceptance of the faciast nature of Islamist culture.
Zionism means giving national rights to Jews, it means, allowing Jews to have a country of their own where they make the rules. It is as much racist as the whole concept of natiional state (like France or Turkey). Mind you, the USA is an immegration state, not a national state.
In Zionism, the rights of the Jews to have a state of thier own equal to the right to survive. The right or obligation to survive the the utmost and top morral code. In order to survive, anything is kosher. Survival is an end to all means, and all means are just for the cause of survival.
Had the Arabs been friendly, and not in a war with us, things could have been looked other wise. We could have reached some agreement that would satesfy all sides... like israel and Jews help to develop the backwarded arab countires so they could accept the Israeli arab population. But it's not the case.
All lands in Israel are owned by the goverment or the Jewish people by means of organizations like KKL. such a thing is as much racist as creation of a national states, like France or China. Also, Israel's immegration policy is a derivative of the the fact that israel is the national state of the Jewish poeple. Arabs must follow Jews laws the same way, Arabs are suppose to follow similar rules in farnce of australia, what is racist of facist about that? some of these rules are concern with land usage.
But you see in France and China there are no laws that discriminate against people on ethnic basis and neither country stamps it's national form of identification with the ethnic group you belong to.
L@mplighter:
"In order for a nation to be a nation it has to have a population base. "
What do you mean by this? Specifically, what is a "population base"? Probably nothing. Make a statement/argument that counters mine, because empty statements will not get you anywhere.
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Mediocrates:
"Sorry but that's nonsense ."
What is nonsense? Where, and how? You have not shown your proof, or given one iota of evidence why. Logical fallacy of Arbitrary Assertion.
"Freedom and Equality and Fairness are not all the same thing. "
Elaborating on this would certainly help. It is too vague in this state.
"Israel is the Jewish homeland. All other debates proceed from that. "
Correct. And this is precisely why it makes Israel a great candidate for Fascism.
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Gilgamesh:
"One can not accuse Israel in racism with out acceptance of the faciast nature of Islamist culture "
Islamist culture is indeed Fascist, but if you would look at the topic of this particular thread, you will notice that Islam is NOT the issue being discussed. As such, Non-Sequitor .
"It is as much racist as the whole concept of natiional state (like France or Turkey). Mind you, the USA is an immegration state, not a national state. "
Correct. (Although I would dispute France and Turkey, but that is besides the point).
"The right or obligation to survive the the utmost and top morral code. In order to survive, anything is kosher. Survival is an end to all means, and all means are just for the cause of survival. "
Again, correct. This is the disgusting reality of Fascism, which Israel has implicitly accepted.
"Arabs must follow Jews laws the same way, Arabs are suppose to follow similar rules in farnce of australia, what is racist of facist about that? "
The topic is not on what Laws people must follow, but on why Israel implicitly accepts Fascism. Thus, Non-Sequitor . (But to answer your question, a practice/law is labelled racist, when it is racially exclusive).
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Thus, the fact that Israel has implicitly accepted Fascism has yet to be rationally disputed.
Originally posted by A-Palestinian
L@mplighter:
"In order for a nation to be a nation it has to have a population base. "
What do you mean by this? Specifically, what is a "population base"? Probably nothing. Make a statement/argument that counters mine, because empty statements will not get you anywhere.
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What I mean by that is that if Israel opens the doors to Muslims eventually they would end up slaughtering all the Jews. The Jewish population base would eventually be zero.
There’s plenty of evidence that Islam produces murdering psychotic bastards. Perhaps you don’t like those facts but that’s your problem. All this garbage about apartheid is pure nonsense as is the fact that you claim that the Knesset is a fascist organization
Last edited by L@mplighterM; 10-11-2002 at 05:50 PM.
A-Palestinian
I find it surprizing that you agree with me, that islamist culture is racist, while zionism isn't. I believe its a major breakthrough.
From this point forward, our dialog can be mush easier and simpler.
Now, when you put all of this togather, you'll see why we Zionist will not surrender and will fight on the Natzi like Islamist culture that is responsible for much grife on both side.
Also, by accepting the fact that Israel is within a struggle to survive, not only for the sake of itself but in sake of the whole Jewish people. Putting things in the correct context, of ethnic war, will clear and justify the rest of the "questionalbe" practices and policies in Israel.
A Jewish French comedian once said:
"It obvious the Natzis hated Jews, but on the other hand, Jews never muched liked the Natzis".
Same goes with the arabs. Fact remains: Israelis never tried to genocide the Arabs. Arabs promise to throw jews to the sea. Arabs practice genocide upon their own people and attmepted to genocide us Jews, many times, and failed. Arabs are the one producing the mass murder atrocities for the last hundred years. Arabs voice in their media, evil anti semetism, while there is no anti arabism in Israel.
We are in the midst of an ethinic war, it is idotic that by self defense from the evilness of arabs, israel is accused in racism.
If is arabs who are racist and its Islamist culture which you have agreed with us, that it is facist, which is dominant among Arabs.
Israel fights the Arabs becuse it's Arabs who practice an ethnic war upon us.
Last edited by Gilgamesh; 10-12-2002 at 01:59 AM.
L@mplighter:
"What I mean by that is that if Israel opens the doors to Muslims eventually they would end up slaughtering all the Jews. "
Non-Sequitor . The issue is NOT immigration policy. Thus, any referrance to "opening the doors" is null. The issue, is Israel's policy(ies), regarding its INSIDE Arab citizens.
"Perhaps you don’t like those facts but that’s your problem."
I have given no evidence to you for you to suspect I disagree with the Fascism from Islamism. In fact, I explicitly stated "Islamist culture is indeed fascist." You ignorred this statement I made, and then proceeded to make a statement based on ignorrance.
That is NOT conductive to rational discussion. Cease this backward attitude of yours right now. I am NOT interested in pissing contests, but ONLY in rational discussion, which so far, you have NOT been able to engage in properly.
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Gilgamesh:
"I find it surprizing that you agree with me, that islamist culture is racist, while zionism isn't "
While I did say that Islamist culture is Fascist, I did NOT say that "Zionism is not racist." You inserted that on your own, but have passed it as something *I* have said. This is dishonesty, and again, not conductive to rational discussion. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume this was not intentional.
As far as the rest of your post, the only parts relevant to this actual discussion which I could find, was this:
"Putting things in the correct context, of ethnic war, will clear and justify the rest of the "questionalbe" practices and policies in Israel. "
From this, I gather you mean that *anything* that is done to non-Jews, is justified, (Means ), since the Ends , are the security of the Jewish state. Do you agree with this?
(Yes, or No).
The rest of your post is quite irrelevant to this particular discussion.
Correct. And this is precisely why it makes Israel a great candidate for Fascism
This is a patently absurd statement on its face. Do you seriously want to say that national identity is the criterion and proof of fascism?
My dear Palestinian,
You probably habn't noticed but the topic of the conversation has long been changed to Isalmism equal Facism, even Mohamad was a terrorist and mass murderer of women and children, don't you agree?
Islam is the problem, not Zionism. Every one one this board, as well as in the rest of the free world will tell you this. Claiming the Zionism is racism is absured and quite unintelegent in your behalf. The is no room for debate in here about it, the answer is clrear and simple. Isalmism is racism and Arabs are racists, no?
What other reason can explain a palesinian "hero" bombs it self and kill 71 years old Jewish women? Two years the sucide bombing continuing with no return. The arabs lose! Palestinains are totaly defeted. Why do they carry on with attempt to kill more Jews? Only racism remainse as an answer. Not politics, cause the mass murder tactic backfired. The cowardness of the palsetinains exposed long ago, as well as the rest of the arab world.
What would stop us now from destoying the al aqutsa so could built our own temple on top of the land arabs stole from us? Not the "Arab armies" they are a joke, and their generals hide under the bed when ever the here "IDF" , Arab soldiers surrender to camera men, and TV crews... Who many minutes, you think, will it take to the US to demolish Baghdad? How many people will notice the city was gone? who would care?
It is abvious the Islam is the danger to the free world and the danger for Israel. Thus, fighting Islamist and the people who believe in it, Arabs the is the current manifustation of the Arabs.
The same way one can not claim that he is agains Facism or Natzims in the 30's and 40's yet he has nothing aginst Italians and Germens its false! The natzis were Germans, and the Facists were Italian, the same way Islamist are Arabs and others. It's stupid and near impossible to make the distinction between the ideology and the people who hold it.
We are at war with the Arabs, because the Arabs are at war with us. Arabs will loose because they are immoral murderus stone age primitive people. half of them can't even read... the others who can read, read nothing but anti semetic propoganda...
What do you think of this?
Mediocrates:
"This is a patently absurd statement on its face "
Arbitrary Assertion . If you indeed believe in this, then prove me wrong. In my original post on the subject, point out where you disagree, why you disagree, and what your reasoning is. Otherwise, your blanket statements hold no water, and are dismissed.
When I made my case, I didnt simply say: "Oh, well all of you are just making absurd statements!". Instead, I methodically went through the process of reasoning, providing proof where necessary, for why my argument stands. You have NOT done the same. That is why the statements you make are just plain silly.
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Gilgamesh:
"You probably habn't noticed but the topic of the conversation has long been changed to Isalmism equal Facism "
Wrong. The topic of this particular thread, is called "Israel's Arab Citizen Quandary ". Any talk that diverges from this thread does NOT change the topic. Rather, it simply goes on a tangent FROM the topic being discussed.
Instead of answering the question I posed to you regarding THIS topic, you have instead posted a long rant on Baghdad, Palestinians, and Mohammad. Those issues are IRRELEVANT to THIS topic, but my question posed to you (which you have evaded) is VERY relevant.
So instead of posting on why you think Mohammad who lived 1600 years ago is so evil, post on why you think MY post is wrong. To make a point, you are going to have to deal with ME .
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Again, as it stands, Israel has implicitly accepted Facism.
No rational counter argument has been given thus far.
ok then - leave off the leading clause.
is nationalism the proof and cause of all the problems you describe?
Right, no rational argument has been given thus far to prove that Israel has accepted Fascism, implicitly or explicitly. Here is the definition of Fascism, according to Merriam Webster Dictionary:Originally posted by A-Palestinian
Again, as it stands, Israel has implicitly accepted Facism.
No rational counter argument has been given thus far.
Given the general cacophony of the Israeli political scene, the range of views represented in the Knesset, the power of the Supreme Court, which has protected the rights of individuals on a consistent basis, the assertion that Israel is a somehow Fascist state is ludicrous.1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
Generally, flinging big words around, without concern for their accepted meaning, is not a hallmark of rational debate, but rather that of demagoguery.
"is nationalism the proof and cause of all the problems you describe?"
The only problem being conversed about at the moment, is the problem of non-Jews living in Israel would have should their population exceed 50%.
Thus For this particular issue, the problem is:
-- Non-Jewish population of a country, where the population must remain > 50% Jewish . --
The problem arises because Israel is a Zionist state. Zionism holds that the majority of the populus must remain Jewish. Zionism is Jewish Nationalism.
In this case, the population "problem" of non-Jews arises only because of Zionism, aka, Jewish Nationalism.
So yes, in this particular case, Nationalism is what is causing the problem. This is nothing new, I stated in the original post, that unless the notion that a non-Jewish populus > 50% is not seen as a "security threat", the "problem" will still be there.
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"Given the general cacophony of the Israeli political scene, the range of views represented in the Knesset, the power of the Supreme Court, which has protected the rights of individuals on a consistent basis, the assertion that Israel is a somehow Fascist state is ludicrous "
Precisely why I made sure to state that Israel has IMPLICITLY accepted Facism. An explicit acceptance of Facism would mean that the courts, Knesset, etc enact Fascist policies on a grand scale, which is clearly not the case.
An implicit acceptance however, means that Israel will do *anything* to keep the population of its non-Jewish inhabitants under 50%, (population coercion ala China). It has not happened yet, but the whole issue is, what path Israel will choose once is DOES happen.
Since it is deemed a "security threat", this would enable the government to neutralise this security threat. And since the threat is how-many-babies-non-Jewish-families-have, a government entering into this realm becomes Fascist.
I already explained this before.
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The argument stands.
Actually it looks as if this will be achieved by the most peaceful means imaginable: according to a recent statistic (I don't have the link now) the birthrates among Israeli Arabs are declining (a fact normally attributed to improving educational and professioanl opportunities for young women) and are likely to become more or less equal to these of Jewish Israelis within a decade. The Jewish birthrates are rising, btw., apparently due to a growing proporting of the strictly observant.Originally posted by NewsGuy (post #1)
Nonetheless, the greatest danger to Israel is the Arabs’ third-world style population explosion. ... Israel must turn its attention to ensure an eternal Jewish majority in the Jewish homeland based on international law.
As we mentioned before, Zionism or Israel has nothing to do with racism. To ansure self rule of the Jewish people, in a democratic state, it is natural that a Jewish majority will be kept. That has nothing to do with facism, since all national states do the same, the keep their own lands to their own people.
However, since you have agreed with us that Islamists are facists, and the majority of arabs are Islamist, there for, facists. Israel will become a facist natzi like state the moment Arabs become the majority in Israel.
The circle is closed. Arabs are facists, Mohammad was a terrorist and Islaimism means the end of the cilivliazation. Each of these undisputed FACTS are enough of a reasons to keep arabs out. Let alone, all of these facts put togather.
If Israel wants to stay Zionist free domocracy, She MUST keep the arabs away, never to allow them to become a majority.
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