Is it Israeli Colonialism or Arab Propaganda?

[takeo]

first a few words about "colonisation". So ok, if it wasn't colonisation, how would you call it? it was a group of people who decided to live in a country that was already inhabited by another people and to take over (parts of) the land for themselves, (sometimes excluding the original inhabitants, but not necessarily). This is called colonisation, if you like it or not.
Can't you just for once imagine that your are a Palestine living in your country (which was occupied by another country, but that country, first Turkey, later GB, let the palestinians live there and didn't transplant its own population there, they just wanted tax revenues) . Than some people from outside decide to live in exactly the same city you do and completely controll this city by their own organisations, completely excluding the original inhabitants. Than there is war between your leaders and Israel and you flee. After the war you want to return home but you can't. You are not allowed back in and had to live in refugee camps.
I agree the rich Arab countries could have taken in the Palestinians, but Israel is rich too, why couldn't Israel take them back? It was where they belonged, not in Saoudi Arabia or Kouweit, but where their roots were, where their houses were, in short their homeland. The rich arab countries (who are indeed corrupted, etc. but that is beside the point in this discussion) didn't have to take them because they didn't live there, they lived in Israel, they were Palestinians belonging in what was Palestine, not Bedouins from the Arab desert, not even Libanese. Israel MUST take them back (UN-resolution), so in this case it is not anti-israel hysteria to ask for the return to where they came from, it is just common sence. By the way Israel's leaders already agreed to take all refugees back in 1948, on the condition that "peace-treaties were concluded". However, even after peace-treaties with the PLO, Jordan and Egypt, Israel still didn't take them back.
And about Arabs killing Arabs, it was true in many cases (by the way libanese killing Libanese, they are not just Arabs) but in this case it was Libanese killing palestinians under supervision and controll of Israel, which is a big difference.

[aid]

Israel is for Jews.


The twenty-three Arab states are for Arabs.

It's that simple.

[takeo]

I appreciate your honesty aid. At least someone who really says what he thinks, without the usual "we want peace but the Palestinians are terrorists blabla".
Israel and the occupied territories for the Jews only and to hell with the original inhabitants.
Of course your opinion is unacceptable and a reason for the Palestinians to fight Israel and for the world to condamn and sanction Israel, but at least you say what you really think.

[aid]

Non Monsiuer,

This is what the Oslo Accords were all about: two states between the river and the sea. One state is Jewish, and the other is Arab.

Jews immigrate to the Jewish State, and Arabs immigrate to the Arab State, according to the immigration policies of the respective state.

This was the whole idea. I don't think it matters much if you want now Israel is to be the destination for the Arab immigration. No one ever designed it to be this way, Monsieur, no matter what al-Ahram would say.

If you are not Arab, then you are more Arab than Arafat, and certainly Nusseibeh. If you don't know who Nusseibeh is, it's just your ignorance. Use a web search engine to find out. I wonder if are not the one who is going to replace the Pope, because you must be more Catholic than him.

Even Arafat does not demand quotes like you do. Even his tone is less categorical than yours. Yours is a voice of an Arab extremist, with no sense of reality whatsoever.

[takeo]

is it extremist to demand that people who have been etnically cleansed can return to their homes their families lived for centuries? In that case the UN is an extremist organisation, and the Geneva-convention is extremist as well. And Arafat does want the refugees to return, or have a free choice to return. That is why "camp David" failed and the new intifadeh started.
And so for the first time you recognise that the occupied territories should become Palestine and don't belong to Israel?
That's a big improovement, but not enough. The question of the refugees is important too, but maibe if Israel allows the return of refugees and the establishment of a Palestinian state, the Palestinians can allow the Jewish settlers to remain in Palestine, that seems fair to me, at least if they accpet the laws of palestine (the people who go to live in Israel should accept the laws of Israel).
Anyway, Israel has no choice, if it want peace, this is the way to go.

[aid]

Mon Dieu, Good Lord,

How come you read the Hamas Charter and don't see the direct call for the extermination of Jews? Are you blind or something?


...Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said:

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!


The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have the right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations , be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection.

(Peace) Initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of this faith, the movement educates it members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."


Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did Unbelievers do justice to Believers?

"And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor with Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (himself) is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper."
Sura 2 (the Cow) verse 120.
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiative, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game...

Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present (conduct) is the best proof of what is said there....

Within the circle of the conflict with world Zionism, the Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the avant-garde. It joins its efforts to all those who are active on the Palestinian scene, but more steps need to be taken by the Arab and Islamic people and Islamic associations throughout the Arab and Islamic world in order to make possible the next round with the Jews, the merchants of war...

I actually think, Monsieur Takeo, that your views are closer to Hamas than al-Fateh. The incidence of your repetition of the words "racism", "Nazism", "colonialism" is higher than al-Fateh and close to one of Hamas. No wonder you don't see the abomination.

You are blind. Only your blindness is not physical. It is a peculiar anti-Jewish blindness of an Arab.

[aid]

What about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Monsieur, by the way?

Did you appreciate them?

[takeo]

Aid the fact that you use the word "anti-semitism" in an even higher sequence than sharon in insulting people critical to Israel (newsguy said that my views are common among the leftist part of Israeli society as well, so they must all have read the "elderly of Zion" and be anti-semits) means that you are even more extremist and unreasonable than Sharon.
I only used the words racism, etnic cleansing, fascism in their context of a specific policy or fact. Hamas doesn't use such words a lot, they believe the word of Allah more than Geneva-conventions and are themselves supporters of etnic cleansing. I didn't know where you got this text (can you give me the link?) I didn't read this on the website of Hamas, only that they want to exterminate Israel and jewish controll. Anyway everyone knows that hamas is for the elimination of all Jews from the Middle East and since day 1 I strongly condmaned the ideas and polcy of Hamas and i am also for the two peoples to live peacefully together in Palestine/israel. Any allegation that my views are close to Hamas are thus absolutely bullshit.

[TexasMan]

Land belongs to those strong enough to hold it. The jews took their homeland back by force. Palestinians live there because the Jews have not run them out. The arabs ran the romans out. Does Italy deserve the right to all arab lands in north africa? What about istanbul should the turks give it back to the eastern orthodox christians? If christians started blowing stuff up in Turkey they would run them out on a rail. And I would not blame them.

[aid]

Don't mess with Texas.

[takeo]

lol, texas,
I have used that example of Turkey as well... because some guys here think they have the right to be the only ones in Israel because 2000 years ago they lived there too and than left... :-)
And if you say that they are there because they were stronger and used more force (so no ethics at all involved, this is indeed the American way), than of course you wouldn't mind when an Arab coalition with Iran and Pakistan stronger than Israel would overrun it and destroy Israel? and of course you wouldn't mind if a country stronger than the US (China for example in 20 years) would succeed in destroying the US?
but please stop whining about terrorism and violence if you have such views, the US killed 5 million of people in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos(and couldn't even win against such tiny lands), that's more than 1000 times the victims of 11th september.

[takeo]

the only reason why palestinians are still iving in the occupied territories and haven't had a genocide or general expulsion as in 1948 in Israel, is because this would have as a result a general arabic/Muslim or even Soviet coalition against israel and in such case the public opinion would not allow any European or US-help to Israel, a country ruled by mass-murderers. This is still the only thing refraining them, international opinion and fear for possible loss of american support and international sanctions.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
l And if you say that they are there because they were stronger and used more force (so no ethics at all involved, this is indeed the American way), than of course you wouldn't mind when an Arab coalition with Iran and Pakistan stronger than Israel would overrun it and destroy Israel? and of course you wouldn't mind if a country stronger than the US (China for example in 20 years) would succeed in destroying the US?
but please stop whining about terrorism and violence if you have such views, the US killed 5 million of people in Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos(and couldn't even win against such tiny lands), that's more than 1000 times the victims of 11th september.

LOL, a Communist, Marxist-Leninst is talking about... ethics.
What can be funnier?

An Arab coalition with Iran and Pakistan will overrun Israel the moment Israel becomes weaker than that coalition - this is the law of the jungles Israel lives in.

If this happens, there will be no point objecting. When 2,000 years ago the Romans destroyed our state and our Temple, who could we complain to? To the goyim? No, to God only, the God of Israel.

Israel exists because it is strong enough to exist. That's all to it.
If Israel is destroyed by the Arabs, there will not be anyone to complain to as ever. As for the "Palestinian nation", the moment there is no Israel, no one ever will utter the these words anymore. The only purpose of inventing that "nation" is to destroy Israel.

And how can you complain about Israeli "atrocities", when you, Commies, massacred no less than a hundred million of people, by conservative estimates, and made life hell for many more?
Truly, Nazis have more shame than Commies.

[takeo]

in fact communism killed billions of people and is the only source of evil in the world.
no let's go back to reality: iran, Pakistan and the Arab countries are ALREADY stronger than israel together...
and the only thing refraining them from attacking Israel is that they are not ready yet to jeopardise everything (such as american support) for such an action and have still too much hate for eachother. they are also afraid of the us-reaction. However if israel would really exaggerate such a combined actions seems possible and would even be demanded by angry mobs on the streets of all Muslim countries. the more isolated and roghe israel gets, the more realistic such a scenario will be. for sure the un wouldn't protect a country that refuses to follow international rule, nor would russia, china or Europe.
if israel would be a little more reasonable, as in 1993, than it could have lots of friends to protect them.