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Thread: The World's Worst Neighborhood

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    The World's Worst Neighborhood

    Israel's Predicament at 60: World's worst neighbourhood

    by Daniel Pipes
    National Post
    May 6, 2008
    http://www.meforum.org/article/pipes/5552

    Two religiously-identified new states emerged from the shards of the British empire in the aftermath of World War II. Israel, of course, was one; the other was Pakistan.

    They make an interesting, if infrequently-compared pair. Pakistan's experience with widespread poverty, near-constant internal turmoil, and external tensions, culminating in its current status as near-rogue state, suggests the perils that Israel avoided, with its stable, liberal political culture, dynamic economy, cutting-edge high-tech sector, lively culture, and impressive social cohesion.

    But for all its achievements, the Jewish state lives under a curse that Pakistan and most other polities never face: the threat of elimination. Its remarkable progress over the decades has not liberated it from a multi-pronged peril that includes nearly every means imaginable: weapons of mass destruction, conventional military attack, terrorism, internal subversion, economic blockade, demographic assault, and ideological undermining. No other contemporary state faces such an array of threats; indeed, probably none in history ever has.

    The enemies of Israel divide into two main camps: the Left and the Muslims, with the far Right a minor third element. The Left includes a rabid edge (International ANSWER, Noam Chomsky) and a more polite centre (United Nations General Assembly, Canada's Liberal Party, the mainstream media, mainline churches, school textbooks). In the final analysis, however, the Left serves less as a force in its own right than as an auxiliary for the primary anti-Zionist actor, which is the Muslim population. This latter, in turn, can be divided into three distinct groupings.

    First come the foreign states: Five armed forces that invaded Israel on its independence in May 1948, and then neighboring armies, air forces, and navies fought in the wars of 1956, 1967, 1970, and 1973. While the conventional threat has somewhat receded, Egypt's U.S.-financed arms build-up presents one danger and the threats from weapons of mass destruction (especially from Iran but also from Syria and potentially from many other states) present an even greater one.

    Second come the external Palestinians, those living outside Israel. Sidelined by governments from 1948 until 1967, Yasir Arafat and the Palestine Liberation Organization got their opportunity with the defeat of three states' armed forces in the Six-Day War. Subsequent developments, such as the 1982 Lebanon war and the 1993 Oslo accords, confirmed the centrality of external Palestinians. Today, they drive the conflict, through violence (terrorism, missiles from Gaza) and even more importantly by driving world opinion against Israel via a public relations effort that resonates widely among Muslims and the Left.

    Third come the Muslim citizens of Israel, the sleepers in the equation. In 1949, they numbered merely 111,000, or 9 percent of Israel's population but by 2005, they had multiplied ten-fold, to 1,141,000, and to 16 percent of the population. They benefited from Israel's open ways to evolve from a docile and ineffective community into a assertive one that increasingly rejects the Jewish nature of the Israeli state, with potentially profound consequences for that the future identity of that state.

    If this long list of perils makes Israel different from all other Western countries, forcing it to protect itself on a daily basis from the ranks of its many foes, its predicament renders Israel oddly similar to other Middle Eastern countries, which likewise face a threat of elimination.

    Kuwait, conquered by Iraq, actually disappeared from the face of the earth between August 1990 and February 1991; were it not for an American-led coalition, it would quite certainly never been resurrected. Lebanon has been effectively under Syrian control since 1976 and, should developments warrant formal annexation, Damascus could at will officially incorporate it. Bahrain is occasionally claimed by Tehran to be a part of Iran, most recently in July 2007, when an associate of Ayatollah Ali Khamene'i, Iran's supreme leader, claimed that "Bahrain is part of Iran's soil," and insisted that "The principal demand of the Bahraini people today is to return this province … to its mother, Islamic Iran." Jordan's existence as an independent state has always been precarious, in part because it is still seen as a colonial artifice of Winston Churchill, in part because several states (Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia) and the Palestinians see it as fair prey.

    That Israel finds itself in this company has several implications. It puts Israel's existential dilemma into perspective: If no country risks elimination outside of the Middle East, this is a nearly routine problem within the region, suggesting that Israel's unsettled status will not be resolved any time soon. This pattern also highlights the Middle East's uniquely cruel, unstable, and fatal political life; the region ranks, clearly, as the world's worst neighborhood. Israel is the child with glasses trying to succeed at school while living in a gang-infested part of town.

    The Middle East's deep and wide political sickness points to the error of seeing the Arab-Israeli conflict as the motor force behind its problems. More sensible is to see Israel's plight as the result of the region's toxic politics. Blaming the Middle East's autocracy, radicalism, and violence on Israel is like blaming the diligent school child for the gangs. Conversely, resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict means only solving that conflict, not fixing the region.

    If all the members of this imperiled quintet worry about extinction, Israel's troubles are the most complex. Israel having survived countless threats to its existence over the past six decades, and it having done so with its honor intact, offers a reason for its population to celebrate. But the rejoicing cannot last long, for it's right back to the barricades to defend against the next threat.

  2. #2
    andak01
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    weapons of mass destruction, conventional military attack, terrorism, internal subversion, economic blockade, demographic assault, and ideological undermining. No other contemporary state faces such an array of threats; indeed, probably none in history ever has.
    Nice try. How about Somalia, Iran, Syria, Cuba?

  3. #3
    ToYgUn
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    edt
    Last edited by ToYgUn; 02-27-2009 at 10:46 AM.

  4. #4
    second_coming
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    Nice try. How about Somalia, Iran, Syria, Cuba?
    Nice try what?

    Who are the current foreign national threats to Cuba?

    How about Somalia or Syria?

    And if iran wasn't the scum of humanity, a terrorist dictatorship of thugs and murderers fomenting wars in FOUR other countries, AND building an ILLEGAL nuclear weapon, maybe it wouldn't be under so much foreign pressure.

    But then again, even after all of its unbelievably monstrously awful behavior, I don't see other nations training armed terrorist militias into iran to conduct attacks, like iran does to other countries.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
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    Well it's true that some of those countries have faced and are facing some level of economic and political sanctions. But no one is seriously proposing that any of those countries are at risk from some external threat. They're more likely to tear themselves apart from the inside. Or in the case of Cuba, just declare the revolution over and become another Caribbean resort spot like it was in the 50's. Which is slowly happening today. And for Iran, not so much - after all, American or Israeli saber rattling is not the danger to the world, Iranian nuclear intentions are.

  6. #6
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by second_coming View Post
    Nice try what?

    Who are the current foreign national threats to Cuba?
    I suppose we could ignore the Bay of Pigs, attempts to assassinate Castro, various and continuing efforts to cause the end of the Castro regiem both within and external to Cuba.

    How about Somalia or Syria?
    Somalia was invaded by Ethiopia. The Ethiopians are presently shooting people as they riot for food since they are no longer able to buy it with their now defunct currency.

    Syria is daily being threatened with regiem change or invasion by the United States and has actually been invaded by Israeli bombs. Whether or not that bombing or US threats was justified is separate from the issue of whether their existence is threatened. Again, to say that Israel is the only threatened border in the region when other borders have actually been breeched and when Iraq for example has recently fallen to a full scale ground invasion is to ignore the facts.

    And if iran wasn't the scum of humanity, a terrorist dictatorship of thugs and murderers fomenting wars in FOUR other countries, AND building an ILLEGAL nuclear weapon, maybe it wouldn't be under so much foreign pressure.
    The article posed Israel as uniquely threatened. They are not uniquely threatened. The statement was false. Now, if you are willing to accept false statements simply because you or I hate somebody, that's another issue. It does not make the statement that Israel's existence is threatened more true. What it does do is to set up Israel as the only nation that is allowed to complain when wrongs are done to it because it's the only country in the region that "matters". That kind of arrogance is not the basis for any forward progress anymore than is anti-semitism or harping on Israel's faults as is done by the Arabs.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Mil's Avatar
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    Whatever.
    Mil - stands for the countless MILlions of reasons not to work.

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    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    Syria is daily being threatened with regiem change or invasion by the United States and has actually been invaded by Israeli bombs. Whether or not that bombing or US threats was justified is separate from the issue of whether their existence is threatened.
    Not true. Syria's existence has never been threatened. They've been warned not wage war on Israel, and to stop fomenting wars in Lebanon.

    In fact, even the Syrian regime has not been threatened with being removed, since Israel and the U.S. have apparently determined that the Assad government is the best alternative to an Iraq-style situation.

    The article posed Israel as uniquely threatened. They are not uniquely threatened.
    Well, the various blood-thirsty Arab and Iranian savages in the Middle East are constantly scheming to defeat one another.

    But Israel is, indeed, uniquely threatened with Jihad-genocide at the hands of several Muslim governments as well as al Qaeda.

    If Israel was, God forbid, conquered by a Muslim enemy, you know very well that all Jews would be slaughtered in the streets in a genocide that would rival the Holocaust. That is the true Arab national dream, actually, and that of much of the Muslim world.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

  9. #9
    Bheeshma
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    Somalia was not invaded by ethopia the govt of somalia asked ethiopian govt to help them crush the islamic militias. Again territorial integrity of somalia is not going to be compromised.
    Syria, cuba or iran are not threatened with annihilation. But like hillary said, if israel is attacked then syria and iran are fair game.

  10. #10
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewsGuy View Post
    Not true. Syria's existence has never been threatened. They've been warned not wage war on Israel, and to stop fomenting wars in Lebanon.
    I didn't say that Israel threatened Syria's existence. In most scenarios I can think of, they wouldn't. But there has been considerable sword wagging by the US which is quite capable of making them the next Iraq.

    In fact, even the Syrian regime has not been threatened with being removed, since Israel and the U.S. have apparently determined that the Assad government is the best alternative to an Iraq-style situation.
    And here I was thinking that Russia coming to their side was taken into account in the equation.

    Well, the various blood-thirsty Arab and Iranian savages in the Middle East are constantly scheming to defeat one another.
    Whether or not that's true doesn't affect the falseness of the original statement in Mr. Pipes' article.

    But Israel is, indeed, uniquely threatened with Jihad-genocide at the hands of several Muslim governments as well as al Qaeda.
    I can think of Iran, which is a Shiite Sharia state which has repeatedly been threatened with utter anihilation by the US and even by Russia if they initiate an attack on Israel. Pretty much the same thing with Syria. After that, the military threat diminishes pretty quickly. Do you think that Hamas is a credible existential threat to Israel?? How many Qassams does it take to bring down a fighter jet? What is Hamas' satellite intel capability? Hizbollah, while they can defend themselves with great losses inside of Lebanon is not prepared to march across the border even if they had three times the fire power they do today.

    What's more, it's clear that any existential threat to Israel would have to go through the US military which would provide aerial and naval support as well as full satellite intel.

    Al Qaida has no ability to destroy Israel and never will. At worst they can take out a building or two or a couple of buses, tragedy yes, genocidal holocaust no.

    If Israel was, God forbid, conquered by a Muslim enemy, you know very well that all Jews would be slaughtered in the streets in a genocide that would rival the Holocaust. That is the true Arab national dream, actually, and that of much of the Muslim world.
    Do you have any historic precident for that? The land that Israel stands upon has been conquered by Muslims more than once. Were all the Jews slaughtered? If you're thinking of Jewish blood flowing in the streets, perhaps you are projecting what the Crusaders actually did do to what you think the Muslims would do.

  11. #11
    Senior Member NewsGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    I didn't say that Israel threatened Syria's existence. In most scenarios I can think of, they wouldn't. But there has been considerable sword wagging by the US which is quite capable of making them the next Iraq.
    No, the U.S. has not threatened Syria. Quite the opposite.

    I'm actually disappointed that our country has allowed Syria to get away with its direct involvement in killing American soldiers in Iraq. By all counts, we should have struck back against Syria, but did not do so, unfortunately.

    And here I was thinking that Russia coming to their side was taken into account in the equation.
    Nope. Assad was given a pass after seeing the mistake in replacing Saddam Hussein. We've learned that it's better to let Muslim dictators do whatever they want to maintain control over their own people, because the vast majority of the Muslim world is far too primitive to undertake democracy. That's the real lesson of Iraq, and that's why Assad is still in power.

    I can think of Iran, which is a Shiite Sharia state which has repeatedly been threatened with utter anihilation by the US and even by Russia if they initiate an attack on Israel. Pretty much the same thing with Syria. After that, the military threat diminishes pretty quickly.
    You're right in that only force is respected in the Muslim world. Avoiding violence is seen as weakness.

    Do you think that Hamas is a credible existential threat to Israel?? How many Qassams does it take to bring down a fighter jet? What is Hamas' satellite intel capability? Hizbollah, while they can defend themselves with great losses inside of Lebanon is not prepared to march across the border even if they had three times the fire power they do today.

    What's more, it's clear that any existential threat to Israel would have to go through the US military which would provide aerial and naval support as well as full satellite intel.

    Al Qaida has no ability to destroy Israel and never will. At worst they can take out a building or two or a couple of buses, tragedy yes, genocidal holocaust no.
    Iran (and Hezbollah), Syria, and al Qaeda are all actively involved in acquiring nuclear weapons.

    Do you have any historic precident for that? The land that Israel stands upon has been conquered by Muslims more than once. Were all the Jews slaughtered?
    Yes, there is plenty of precedent. A long record of various massacres one can refer to, both in Israel and in Arab countries.

    Unlike many others, I respect the Islamic extremists so far as taking them at their word when they threaten to "Itbach alYahud," and then take steps to make it happen.
    "All we are saying is give peace a chance." - John Lennon

  12. #12
    second_coming
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    Is Andak the "House Schmuck"? Is his role to proffer pointless posts to stir the pot? I am new here, but it looks like that's his niche.

    Once he mentioned the 50-year old "Bay of pigs" invasion, I realized what I was dealing with.

    The only response I will make is that the current US government is a piece of shit, plain and simple. I cannot believe I voted for Bush twice, THE WORST f--g president, EVER.

    On his watch he has squandered trilliions on a useless, pointless war, Iraq, and allowed the FAR greater threat, Iran, to grow like a tumor.

    Billions for his wealthy oil friends, look at the runup in gas now in his last few months in office, and another 300 billion for the wealthy corporate farming interests.

    Yet another country just fell under the control of the cancer Iran, and not a f---ing peep out of any senators, congressmen or the white house.

    Where is the US leadership? What is our government doing about all of this?

  13. #13
    andak01
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewsGuy View Post
    No, the U.S. has not threatened Syria. Quite the opposite.
    Syria has threatened the US? If Syria threated the US, why didn't we just level them? Er. Russia won't let us. The path the US was on as of the Iraq invasion was an invasion of Syria and then crickets.

    I'm actually disappointed that our country has allowed Syria to get away with its direct involvement in killing American soldiers in Iraq. By all counts, we should have struck back against Syria, but did not do so, unfortunately.
    We watched Israel do it instead and supported their decision to do so publicly. That was less messy than doing it ourselves.

    Nope. Assad was given a pass after seeing the mistake in replacing Saddam Hussein.
    You're probably the first person on the right I've heard admit that it was even possibly a mistake. I don't believe that has anything to do with the reasons we haven't struck Syria. Although, given the back end channels that these decisions take place, it's probably impossible to prove one thing or another given the information publicly available. There's a lot of speculation involved.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Yala's Avatar
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    The US indeed expressed an interest in getting rid of Assad @ the beginning of the Iraq War when they realized he was dispensing Syrian jihadists by the thousands through the IRaq border but, interestingly enough, it was Israel who warned Bush against it, saying that the Sunni Islamists waiting in the wings were much worse than Assad and his corrupt Alawite cronies.
    "It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders

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    Senior Member Yala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andak01 View Post
    We watched Israel do it instead and supported their decision to do so publicly. That was less messy than doing it ourselves.
    I think the US used Israel as a proxy to destroy the reactor.

    But in any case, both the US and ISrael have the right to attack Syria both directly and through proxy and that is b/c Syrians are killing Americans and Iraqis in Iraq and Syria is hosting and supporting both Hamas and Hezbollah. If Syria would remain neutral they would not be threatened nor attacked but the Alawites need the US and Israel as an enemy to keep the majority Sunni country in check.

    You're probably the first person on the right I've heard admit that it was even possibly a mistake
    Not true. There probably isn't a person on this forum who does not admit that the way Bush handled the Iraq war has been a disaster.
    "It is cheap to attack Israel. I am certainly not going to make a cheap attack on Israel by howling in the woods with the rest of the wolves." - Geert Wilders

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