A Final Attempt to "Explode" this idea of Islamic Terrorism"

[ayesha]

The phenomenal global growth of Islam is a cause for concern for many in the West. Muslims who peacefully express the desire to live under Islamic Law are labelled "Islamist" or "Fundamentalist" and are often suspected of supporting terrorism. And the very mention of jihad strikes fear and disgust in the hearts and minds of many non-muslims. Islamophobia has emerged.

The translation of jihad into "holy war" is an example of a foreign, non-Islamic concept superimposed onto Islamic belief and practice. (As Ibrodsjy previously mentioned) Jihad actually means to strive/make effort in the way of God . Hence Jihad can be manifested in a purely peaceful way. The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said:
"The best Jihad is (by) one who strives against (the evil of) his own self for God".
And in the Qur'an Allah says:
"So obey not the disbelievers, but make a great Jihad (effort) against them (by preaching) with it (this Qur'an)". 25:52

Likewise, combative Jihad or fighting is also sometimes necessary. The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his followers, past and present, like many Israelite prophets before them, fought wars in self defence or in order to abolish tyranny and oppression.
"And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief. But Allah is the Bounty to the Worlds." 2:251
"And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose cry is: 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from You, one who will help". 4:75

Regardless of how unjust the enemy may be, Islam forbids their mutilation, torture or the slaughter of their retreating forces. The Prophet Muhammed also forbade killing by deceit, whether through treacherous violation of treaties or by assassination during a ceasefire. This is because war is like a surgical operation, it should not exceed the area of infection.

"AN#nd fight in the way of Allah those that fight against you, but do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors". 2:190

As for the non-combatants or civilans, it is wholly forbidden in Islam to attck them. In the Qur'an:
"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Verily Allah loves those whodeal with equity"

The Prophet (pbuh) expressly forbade muslim armies from attacking women and children, the sick and the lderly, monks, worshippers and labourers. He also outlawed the waton killing of animals, the burning of crops and vegetation, the polluting of waters and the destruction of homes, monastries, churches and synagogues. Once, the Prophet (pbuh) passed by a fallen female warrior and even though she had been actively fighting against the muslims, the prophet said "this is not one against whom a war is to be fought".

And with regards to killing in general, then there are many ayats (verses) and ahadith forbidding this. Qur'an 5:32

"..we ordained for the children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation, or to spread mischief in the and, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. and likewise if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind."

and the prophet said:
"the first cases to be adjudicated in the day of judgement will be those of bloodshed."

In light of the above there can be no doubt that the act of inciting terror into the hearts of defencless civilians, th wholesale destruction of building and propertes and the killing and maiming of innocent men, women and children are all forbidden and detestable criminal acts according to the divine sources of Islam. the bombing of a crowded Jerusalem market, Paris metro or indeed the WTC are condemned by Islam and its God fearing adherents.

"Let there rise from you a people inviting to all that is good, enjoinging virtue and forbidding evil." 3:104

Thus we can only deduce that it is gravely wrong to judge islam by the actions of a few, misguided people attributing themselves and their actions to islam. Prince Charles observed:
"...our common attitude to Islam suffers because the way we understand it has been hijacked by the extreme and the superficial...we need to be careful of that emotive label "fundamentalism", and distinguish, as most muslims do, between revivalists who choose to take the practice of their religion most devoutly, and fanatics or extremists who use this devotion for political ends."

"There is no compulsion in religion". 2:256

[Moon]

You're from the UK right? If so, pick that text up and go preach that to...

Sheikh Abu Hamza who describes himself as a Taliban sympathizer and admits to sharing Osama bin Laden's views. On Monday, the sheikh was quoted saying it was "OK" to kill non-Muslims, and equated Jews with Satan.
Ha'aretz: UK Chief Rabbi says Israeli policy incompatible with Judaism

Your text is positive, I'm not dispising it, but you should show it to Muslims. That's the priority. When I'll see a movement inside Islam fighting against all those terrorists movements who hijack the religion, then I'll be willing to read that post and truely accept it.

[Vic]

Any practical conclusions, Ayesha?

You are right in theory, IMO. I also agree with Moon that this is the wrong place to "explode" the subject - unless you expect the audience to act upon your statements in one way or other.

[ayesha]

i suggest u read the "I will never forgive the arab" thread in the news forum, and the dialogue between myself and batman. u will find we already do "preach" this to such parasites in the UK

i just want those here to understand as well, is that wrong?

[ayesha]

interesting read:

www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/israelis.html

[ayesha]

Originally posted by Vic
Any practical conclusions, Ayesha?

You are right in theory, IMO. I also agree with Moon that this is the wrong place to "explode" the subject - unless you expect the audience to act upon your statements in one way or other.

oh i didnt mean it like that vic, and u know that.

[Mediocrates]

I asked this before and never got any response so here goes.

Does Islam need the equivalent of a Protestant Reformation? Are we really talking about several different relgions under the same name? I don't mean sects, I mean different religions altogether.

I read pieces like this and if you replace the proper nouns you have the history of the world. Shinto isn't about violence but the Empire of Japan was. Confucious wasn't about tyranny but most of Chinese history is. Jesus didn't advocate genocide; his marshalls on earth do.

Christianity has split and split again several times from the 4th C. Division with Byzantium which lead to the Eastern Orthodox to the 'radical' changes of the 12th C. to Jan Hus and Luther and the Anglican Schism to the Reformation to the Quakers and the Shakers to the Methodists to the Revivalist movement to even the Mormons, Adventists, African AME, Southern Baptists, Pentacostals and so on.

Some of them have become fringe elements because they are outside the mainstream. Violently outside the mainstream in some cases. And the larger body rejected them because it's members could not privately or publically support them anymore.

So why not with Islam. Yes there are basic divisions we've come to know like Sunni, Shiite, Wahabbi, etc. but if (and maybe this is a big if...) the larger body must reject the fringe elements and 'kick' them out of Islam to form their own religion. For if the larger body really rejects them then it must make them very very uncomfortable to feel in part the need to defend or explain their actions.

But why should you? Why should you have any more in common with them than with me or the B'hai temple down the block or the Friends Hall or the Buddists? I would ask where is the necessity of having 1 out of 5 people on earth claim that all muslims are the same and an attack on one is an attack on all NO MATTER HOW HORRIFIC THE ACTIONS OF THE PEOPLE YOU ARE DEFENDING?

[ayesha]

Does Islam need the equivalent of a Protestant Reformation? No. If I understood u correctly, in my opinion what Islam needs is to rid itself of these sects of Islam that have nothing to do with Islamic teaching. Only Islam and the Muslims can do this. I don't think a shake up like that of the Protestant Ref. is a solution though. Nonetheless, you are right we are talking about a number of different religions under the same name. Just look at The Nation of Islam, all white people were concocted by a mad black scientist?? WTF? Shiites (although within Shiism itself there are many sects too) believe that Angel Gabriel went to th wrong person and Ali was supposed to be the leader?? WT..? Baraweilies believe intercession by the dead is paramount to achieving Paradise?? Sufis believe that to achieve a state of closeness to God we cant pray we must make ourselves dizzy by turning round and round and round and round.. im not joking. where did all these innovations come from? NOT Islam.
The same goes for this violent, narrow minded fundamentalism, only we dont have a name for this mob yet. all nonmuslims are infidels and must be killed??

It really hurts me when I am associated with these 'people' just because Im an Arab or because I have a muslim name, and I sometimes allow myself to explain to people that they ARENT muslims. Others I dont bother wasting my time. But believe me Mediocrates, if Islam taught anything like that, I wouldve apostasised by now. I dont defend these murderers, I defend Islam. The REAL Islam, not the Islam professed by the taliban, khomeny, louis farakhan or such.

[Teacake]

Laurent Murawiec's 24-slide presentation to the Defense Policy Board was obtained by Slate and is presented here in type-treatment that approximates the original.
___________________________________

Taking Saudi Out of Arabia
Laurent Murawiec
RAND Defense Policy Board
July 10, 2002

1
Taking Saudi out of Arabia: Contents

* The Arab Crisis
* "Saudi" Arabia
* Strategies

2
The Arab Crisis

3
The systemic crisis of the Arab World

* The Arab world has been in a systemic crisis for the last 200 years
* It missed out on the industrial revolution, it is missing out on the digital revolution
* Lack of inner resources to cope with modern world

4
Shattered Arab self-esteem

* Shattered self-esteem
* Could God be wrong?
* Turn the rage against those who contradict God: the West, object of hatred
* A whole generation of violently anti-Western, anti-American, anti-modern shock-troops

5
What has the Arab world produced?

* Since independence, wars have been the principal output of the Arab world
* Demographic and economic problems made intractable by failure to establish stable polities aiming at prosperity
* All Arab states are either failing states or threatened to fail

6
The Crisis of the Arab world reaches a climax

* The tension between the Arab world and the modern world has reached a climax
* The Arab world's home-made problems overwhelm its ability to cope
* The crisis is consequently being exported to the rest of the world

7
How does change occur in the Arab world?

* There is no agora, no public space for debating ideas, interests, policies
* The tribal group in power blocks all avenues of change, represses all advocates of change
* Plot, riot, murder, coup are the only available means to bring about political change

8
The continuation of politics by other means?

* In the Arab world, violence is not a continuation of politics by other means -- violence is politics, politics is violence
* This culture of violence is the prime enabler of terrorism
* Terror as an accepted, legitimate means of carrying out politics, has been incubated for 30 years ...

9
The crisis cannot be contained to the Arab world alone

* The crisis has irreversibly spilled out of the region
* 9/11 was a symptom of the "overflow"
* The paroxysm is liable to last for several decades
* U.S. response will decisively influence the duration and outcome

10
"Saudi" Arabia

11
The old partnership

* Once upon a time, there was a partnership between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia
* Partnerships, like alliances, are embodied in practices, ideas, policies, institutions, people -- which persist after the alliance has died

12
"Saudi" Arabia

* An instable group: Since 1745, 58% of all rulers of the House of Saud have met a violent demise
* Wahhabism loathes modernity, capitalism, human rights, religious freedom, democracy, republics, an open society -- and practices the very opposite
* As long as enmity had no or little consequences outside the kingdom, the bargain between the House of Saud and the U.S. held

13
Means, motive, opportunity

* 1973: Saudi Arabia unleashes the Oil Shock, absorbs immense flows of resources -- means
* 1978: Khomeiny challenges the Saudis' Islamic credentials, provoking a radicalization and world-wide spread of Wahhabism in response -- motive
* 1979-1989: the anti-Soviet Jihad gives life and strength to the Wahhabi putsch within Sunni Islam -- opportunity. The Taliban are the result

14
The impact on Saudi policy

* Wahhabism moves from Islam's lunatic fringe to center-stage -- its mission now extends world-wide
* Saudis launch a putsch within Sunni Islam
* Shift from pragmatic oil policy to promotion of radical Islam
* Establish Saudi as "the indispensable State" -- treasurers of radical, fundamentalist, terrorist groups

15
Saudis see themselves

* God placed the oil in the kingdom as a sign of divine approval
* Spread Wahhabism everywhere, but keep the power of the al-Saud undiminished
* Survive by creating a Wahhabi-friendly environment -- fundamentalist regimes -- throughout the Moslem world and beyond

16
The House of Saud today

* Saudi Arabia is central to the self-destruction of the Arab world and the chief vector of the Arab crisis and its outwardly-directed aggression
* The Saudis are active at every level of the terror chain, from planners to financiers, from cadre to foot-soldier, from ideologist to cheerleader
* Saudi Arabia supports our enemies and attacks our allies
* A daily outpouring of virulent hatred against the U.S. from Saudi media, "educational" institutions, clerics, officials -- Saudis tell us one thing in private, do the contrary in reality

17
Strategies

18
What is to be done?

* During and after World War I, Britain's India Office backed the House of Saud; the Foreign Office backed the Hashemites. The India Office won
* But the entire post-1917 Middle East settlement designed by the British to replace the Ottoman Empire is fraying
* The role assigned to the House of Saud in that arrangement has become obsolete -- and nefarious

19
"Saudi Arabia" is not a God-given entity

* The House of Saud was given dominion over Arabia in 1922 by the British
* It wrested the Guardianship of the Holy Places -- Mecca and Medina -- from the Hashemite dynasty
* There is an "Arabia," but it needs not be "Saudi"

20
An ultimatum to the House of Saud

* Stop any funding and support for any fundamentalist madrasa, mosque, ulama, predicator anywhere in the world
* Stop all anti-U.S., anti-Israeli, anti-Western predication, writings, etc., within Arabia
* Dismantle, ban all the kingdom's "Islamic charities," confiscate their assets
* Prosecute or isolate those involved in the terror chain, including in the Saudi intelligence services

21
Or else ...

* What the House of Saud holds dear can be targeted:
—Oil: the old fields are defended by U.S. forces, and located in a mostly Shiite area
—Money: the Kingdom is in dire financial straits, its valuable assets invested in dollars, largely in the U.S.
—The Holy Places: let it be known that alternatives are being canvassed

22
Other Arabs?

* The Saudis are hated throughout the Arab world: lazy, overbearing, dishonest, corrupt
* If truly moderate regimes arise, the Wahhabi-Saudi nexus is pushed back into its extremist corner
* The Hashemites have greater legitimacy as Guardians of Mecca and Medina

23
Grand strategy for the Middle East

• Iraq is the tactical pivot

• Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot

• Egypt the prize

[SteveMetch]

Ayesha, maybe you could explain how it is "radical" Muslims could have misinterpreted these passages in the Koran.

Source:

http://islamexposed.com/Essays/Jihad.htm

Sura 9.5-6.: "Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."

"Those who believe fight in the cause of God."
YUSUFALI: “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.”
PICKTHAL: “Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.”

"....Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush...."(Sura 9:5).

"When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...."(Sura 47:4).

"....Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in Allah, or in the Last Day, and who forbid not what Allah and His Apostle have forbidden....until they pay tribute..." (Sura 9:29).

"Say to the infidels: If they desist, what is now past shall be forgiven them; but if they return, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it Allah's (Islam)." (Sura 8:39).

"Proclaim a grievious penalty to those who reject faith." (Sura 9:3).

Fact 1: Most of Islam teaches the concept that Allah is all powerful and all knowing and therefore must will both good and evil.

Question: Will not then submitting to the will of Allah necessitate both good and evil actions?

Fact 2: Most of Islam teaches the concept of predestination “It is written in the book”.

Question: If Allah is all powerful and everything is predestined why isn’t everyone already Muslims?

[ayesha]

i dont have my quran with me steve, but id be happy to read the arabic and get back to u.

i knew someone would come up with this

[Moon]

ayesha, I'm just curious in one thing (as you're going to pick the Koran): does the Koran accepts everything in the Torah as true?

BTW, I'm sorry but I didn't like the site. Zionism is not racism, end of story. And the "both sides must do this or that" theory is completely wrong. This conflict didn't start with mutual agreement AFAIK...

This is a war with two sides. One side started it and the other is defending itself. If the side which is defending itself ceases its fire, violence will continue. If the side which started the war ceases its fire, violence will not continue. Therefore, the solution involves solely one side. That side will have to cease its fire or forced to cease its fire in order to end the war and thus establish peace.

The side which started the war had its reasons, true, but from the point that it uses force to validate its reasons, its reasons no longer are legitimate (or at least fully legitimate) as there were ongoing negotiations (and its achievments) before this war started.

"Who wants peace?" thread

[Mediocrates]

Y'a know guys this is the person you should be courting not alienating ~~~~

[ayesha]

regarding the site it was merely intended as reading not to cause offence. i apologise .

as for the torat, yes we as muslims believe in prophet moses and that the torah was revealed to him. but we only believe in it in that way,some of it we believe yes, but then again a lot of it we dont.

[Moon]

Originally posted by ayesha
regarding the site it was merely intended as reading not to cause offence. i apologise .

as for the torat, yes we as muslims believe in prophet moses and that the torah was revealed to him. but we only believe in it in that way,some of it we believe yes, but then again a lot of it we dont.

Not offended, my immunitary system is getting better and better every day .

Ok, but this will sound bitter if not offensive: I suppose the part in the Torah which says that it won't be any other Torah (law?), is not part of what is believed by muslims, is it?

This is off-topic and just one of my last posts in the forum. I always was curious about this.