A Final Attempt to "Explode" this idea of Islamic Terrorism"

[Vic]

Originally posted by gev
I see only one solution in this situation: Post WWII democtracies imposed by the Western world on Arab World.

"Imposing" won't function, not with the larger and powerful Arab countries, by their former colonial masters, and all of this without WWIII. Quiet, patient "democratic subversion" might work - over a nice long time.

[gev]

Originally posted by Vic
"Imposing" won't function, not with the larger and powerful Arab countries, by their former colonial masters, and all of this without WWIII. Quiet, patient "democratic subversion" might work - over a nice long time.

problem is, we might not have a nice long time.

[Vic]

Originally posted by gev
problem is, we might not have a nice long time.

True, but is anyone seriously going to start what would amount to WWIII against the Arab countries?

[gev]

I don't think it should amount to that.
The West has an economical laverage on the Arab countries.

As someone in another thread said/asked once (sorry, I don't remeber who): If Europe don't buy the oil from the Arabs, what will they do with it, drink it?

The US is aiding countries, financially, it should condition this aid with a change in the regim.

[Vic]

Originally posted by gev
I don't think it should amount to that.
The West has an economical laverage on the Arab countries.

As someone in another thread said/asked once (sorry, I don't remeber who): If Europe don't buy the oil from the Arabs, what will they do with it, drink it?

The US is aiding countries, financially, it should condition this aid with a change in the regim.

Nice idea, again, but -

What both Europe and the US can do with relative ease is to demand from such states not to do certain things, such as support terrorism, threaten Israel, etc. What you are suggesting amounts to a demand that their governments should commit suicide, which is something they certainly won't do: what would they need their oil revenues for, if they are slated to lose power?

[ayesha]

Firstly Steve:
You said
"Mohammed sorry Allah also did this with pagan meccans who in which the Koran says that prayers to these three pagan gods are good and useful."

Q.
WHERE IS THAT???

Secondly peacelover, Birmingham eh? Lovin' the accent! I was there just the other week - Smallheath to be exact. My car was broken into there! Anyway, I dont know the situation in Birmingham in regards to Islam awareness. I know you have a BIG Asian community, do you experience problems there between the 3 major religions - hindus, sikhs and muslims that live in B'ham? With the industry I work in, I travel a lot worldwide and have come to realise that there is more of the fanatics in the UK than in any other Western nation. Some of them born and bred here! Remember that Nadeem? Butt guy fresh from fighting with the Taliban and Blair couldnt do anything about them. Why is that, do you have any clue peacelover?

Vic, you are sadly right in saying that the 'muslim' extremists (i say that for convenience) are exceedingly more organised than the rest of us, for now anyway. But that is something that is going to change - without a doubt.

gev, what do I think would change the Arab world? It already is changing. The clash of the two 'schools of thought' is one of the reasons of the turmoil we see the world in today. - (extreme and moderate). The Arab world is mutating into a more Westernised world, while still clinging to culture. sounds confusing but basically religion is beginning to take more of a back seat rather than the driver's. This is one of the causes of frustration in the Arab world.

However, u r wrong in saying religion has the power in Arab countries. They dont, pure and simple. Arab dictators love to make u believe that but it isnt true. If u studied Islamic Law and looked at the law of many Arab nations you'll see what I mean.
Some want change, some dont. This is what the clash in the Arab world is about. But on an international front, the reasons arenot as simple.

[eyl]

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking here. Most Old Testement, unlike the New (at least, if I understand correctly), is an historical record, rather than morals, parables and rules (though some sections do have them, such as most of the book of Leviticus). As such, mmost of these passeges are simply chronicles, rather than instructions, and the Bible tends to be brutally frank regarding various rulers' conduct.

Originally posted by ayesha
Absurd
"Samson has sex with a whore in Gaza"
Judges 16:1

Well, Sampson was FAR from someone I'd hold up as a role model.

[quote]
Obscenities
"The bastard shall not enter the congregation of the Lord, even to his tenth generation..."
Deuteronomy 23:2, Zechariah 9:6, Hebrews 12:8
[quote]

Bastardy (defined as the child of a married woman by someone other than her husband) is considered a sin in Judaism (and to my knowledge, in most other religions). Such children and their descendents are subject to various restrictions. Right? Wrong? That's up to you, I guess.

Incest? Rape?
"So they set up a tent for Absalom (another son of King David) on the palace roof, and in the sight of everyone, Absalom went in and had intercourse with his father's concubines."
2 Samuels 16:22
*concubine = wife, look in the references under Keturah = 3rd wife of Abraham).

Absalom wasn't much of a person either (I suspect this incident was as much a matter of politics - an act of rebellion and contempt against the king - as of lust). David apparantly wasn't much as a father - one of his other sons (Amnon) raped his sister.

Incidently, I think concubine was a "second class" wife, not a full wife (hence Solomon having 300 wives and 700 concubines).

Massacre
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones and kill every woman that hath known man by lying (having sex) with him.
But keep alive for yourselves all the girls and all the women who are virgins."
Numbers 31:17/18

ALSO

"And they (the Jews) utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep, and ass, with the edge of a sword."
Joshua 6:21

Horrible by modern standards, but permissable by those of the time.

Onanism
"And Judah said to Er's (deceased) brother Onan. Go and sleep (have sex) with you brother's widow...
But Onan knew that the children would not belong to him (will not carry his name), so when he had intercourse with his brother's widow (Tamar) he let the semen (older versions say 'seed') spill on the ground, so that there would be no children (no name) for his children."
Genesis 38:8/9

This passage is often taken as a prohibition of masturbation; my personal take is that Onan was punished not for masturbation, but for failing to carry out his obligations to the family (if a man died without children, his brother was required to marry his wife to produce a heir)

Naked Prophets?
"And he (Saul) stripped off his clothes also, and prophesised before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all night. Wherefore they say, is Saul also among the Prophets?"
1 Samuel 19:24

Prophets were apparantly known for wierd behavior.

Pork
"Of their flesh (of the swine) shall ye not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not touch, they are unclean to you."
Leviticus 11:8

And the question is?

Ahola & Aholiba whores?
"And she kept lusting in the style of concubines belonging to those whose fleshly memeber (genitals) is as the fleshly member of male asses (donkeys) and whose genital organ is as the genital organ of male horses."
New World Translation Ezekiel 23:1 - 49

ALSO

"..for the spirit of whoredoms hath cause them (the Jews) to err, and they have gone a whorring from under their God."
Hosea 4:12, 6:10, 9:1

Both of these were prophets denouncing sins, and both (especially Ezekiel had... forceful styles).

[SteveMetch]

ayesha wrote:
WHAT'S THIS "MUHAMMED SORRY ALLAH" RIFF RAFF?


The Bible

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.
1 John 4

The Koran

Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
004:116

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
005:072

No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
023:091


The Bible

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you let them be accursed.
Galatians 1:8

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:15-16

Jesus said unto him, Again it is written, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God. Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
4 Matthew 7-10


Conclusion:

Fact: The Koran denies the divinity of Christ

Fact: The bible (pre-dates Mohammed by 600 years) teaches that anyone who claims to be from God but denies this divinity of Christ is the Devil.

Fact: Even Muslims acknowledge that some passages in the Koran are from Satan deceiving Mohammed.

Fact: Muslims societies are much poorer economically, socially & scientifically then there western/Judeo Christian countries.

If Islam is the true and final religion how could this be?

Fact: The Muslim practice of falling down to worship is the same as that which the devil requested of Jesus.


I Submit, that the angel Muhammad received his revelations from was in fact the devil. Islam is a satanic religion and all cultures who follow it are cursed as witnessed by history. The devil started Islam to divert the world away from the true Judeo/Christian Faith. These facts were revealed to Christians over 600 years before Muhammad.

Ayesha, for your own sake I would strongly recommend you seriously reflect on the teachings of the bible before continuing down the path of Islam. The interweaving of the teachings of the Bible and the Koran should give you pause for concern. Before Mohammed the Christian and Jewish communities were very strong in the Middle East. If that had continued who knows how happy and successful there cultures could have become.

[Moon]

Damn it! WHY, WHY ALL THIS??

ayesha is perhaps the only muslim in the forum and that has opened herself/himself to discuss things in a cool way, and you have to throw all that in his face... Regardless of what you believe about Islam or whatever, why why all that?? There's no point and it's stupidly rude...

I bet s/he already looked around in the Religion/Culture forum and read posts by Ezra for example, s/he doesn't need more of that!

[Moon]

BTW, assuming that you're Christian and that you said that Islam corrupted the Bible, you should look at your own faith! How do you like that?

[martinw718]

Originally posted by Moon
Damn it! WHY, WHY ALL THIS??

Because that's what he believes.

What do you believe?

[Mediocrates]

I believe this is like hating someone else's favorite color, i.e. dumb.

[Moon]

Originally posted by martinw718


Because that's what he believes.

What do you believe?

Explain your point.

[SteveMetch]

Moon, so what you’re saying is this forum is only for people who agree with each other? That may be how the culture sophisticates deal with conflicts in Europe but in the United States we were raised in the tradition of the free exchange of ideas. That’s probably why the United States as had to expend lives and money bailing Europe out of 3 major conflicts and 2 small ones in the last 100 years. You guys have a nasty tendency of letting things get out of hand because you don’t want to deal with the problem. Lets sing “I’d like to buy the world a coke”.

While I share your desire to engage ayesha in constructive debate I see no need to hide the truth as I and many others understand it thereby turning this forum into a feel good typing assignment.

Mediocrates, this isn’t about the difference in color and you know it. The differences between Islamic and Judeo/Christian cultures could not be more different. We are currently at war with this culture. Like the communist political system it will need to be defeated for true peace to develop. True peace as defined by the free exchange and movement of ideas, people, goods and services.

Ayesha, I’m trying to engage in a true debate of the ideas and philosophies held by Islam and Judeo/Christian cultures. When one debates an idea deeply held by an individual it is hard to separate that idea from yourself personally. You have asked good questions that deserve good answers. Maybe there is a middle ground between Islam and the Judeo/Christian cultures but I currently can’t conceive of one. Maybe you can show us some similarities because I can’t seem to find them.

For Example:

Islam - (Predestination) God wills both good and evil.

Christianity - (Free will) Evil comes through the actions of man and nature.

[Moon]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
Moon, so what you’re saying is this forum is only for people who agree with each other?

Well, thanks for putting such stupid words into my mouth.

That may be how the culture sophisticates deal with conflicts in Europe but in the United States we were raised in the tradition of the free exchange of ideas.

You're right, that's why hate groups from all over the world like the Neo-Nazis have their web sites hosted in American ISPs. Freedom is a beautiful thing, but it's a mean, not an end.

That’s probably why the United States as had to expend lives and money bailing Europe out of 3 major conflicts and 2 small ones in the last 100 years. You guys have a nasty tendency of letting things get out of hand because you don’t want to deal with the problem. Lets sing “I’d like to buy the world a coke”.

Well, I'm from Portugal and this is a bit of a 3rd world country, so I don't quite fully understand how Europe works.

While I share your desire to engage ayesha in constructive debate I see no need to hide the truth as I and many others understand it thereby turning this forum into a feel good typing assignment.

Truth? I see. If a beloved friend of yours is stupid as an ass, though charming for her kind deeds, you would without doubt say to her showing all your evidences, that she is really really stupid as an ass, regardless of the emotional impact on her. Boy, you're cold. I'm sorry for you.

You repeat Judeo/Christian three times and that unity disgusts me, if you want my side of truth. Too bad that that word could only exist or be used after the Pope (the current one I think) said publicly that Jews weren't the murders of Jesus thus unofficializing Christian Antisemitism - one of the major reasons which made possible the murder of six million Jews throughout Europe.

From another post of yours:

Ayesha, for your own sake I would strongly recommend you seriously reflect on the teachings of the bible before continuing down the path of Islam. The interweaving of the teachings of the Bible and the Koran should give you pause for concern.

Missionary, hmm? Too bad many Christians like you don't see that it's possible for a person not of your faith to be rightous, kind and all that. You should try to judge people not for their identity but for their deeds.

Before Mohammed the Christian and Jewish communities were very strong in the Middle East. If that had continued who knows how happy and successful there cultures could have become.

WTF? Didn't quite get it. How does Islam is responsible for Christian hatred towards the Jews? Are you denying your own religion's history? You shouldn't, you can learn many things with History.

Yesterday night, down at the pub, a guy (a religion student) was talking to some chick saying in a most theatrical way that Jews killed Jesus. The Romans just took advantage of that. I just exploded laughing "How can this be? This is the 21st century!"

"Jews", "Killed", "Jesus", those three words are still alive today and they didn't come from a muslim's mouth you know...

What I am saying was already said.

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Y'a know guys this is the person you should be courting not alienating ~~~~