A Final Attempt to "Explode" this idea of Islamic Terrorism"

[martinw718]

Originally posted by Moon
Explain your point.

Explain yours.

[Moon]

Originally posted by martinw718


Explain yours.

Well, you have to be more specific. What is that you don't understand?

[martinw718]

Originally posted by Moon
Well, you have to be more specific. What is that you don't understand?

Okay, which part of "Because that's what he believes." don't you understand?

You scold Steve for telling us what he believes about Islam vs. Christianity. You act like some phony decorum is more important than honesty and truth.

The highest phony-feel-good decorum can rise is to the level of --- BORING!

say: I don't agree
don't say: you shouldn't say that

[Moon]

Fine, do as you wish. Throw tomatoes to ayesha if you want...

[martinw718]

Originally posted by Moon
Fine, do as you wish. Throw tomatoes to ayesha if you want...

My but you are a strange one.

[martinw718]

Originally posted by ayesha
The phenomenal global growth of Islam is a cause for concern for many in the West. Muslims who peacefully express the desire to live under Islamic Law are labelled "Islamist" or "Fundamentalist" and are often suspected of supporting terrorism. And the very mention of jihad strikes fear and disgust in the hearts and minds of many non-muslims. Islamophobia has emerged...

My knowledge of Islam comes from Sufism, I don't have first-hand knowledge of fundamentalist Islam.

But before I tell you what I think of your "Islamophobia" theory I think you need to admit to something:

There is far worse than mere phobia when it comes to Muslims' attitudes toward the West.

There is outright paranoia. Often mass hysteria.

Million and millions of Muslims really believe that the West is doing something to them -- though they don't seem to be able to articulate exactly what that is.

Ordinary Americans living their day-to-day lives are seen as tools of evil by millions and millions of Muslims.

You yourself might have some of these "The West Is Out To Get Us" sentiments in your heart.

Conspiracy theories abound. The theory that the World Trade Center attack was a Jewish plot is actually believed by millions of Muslims.

So with many millions of Muslims caught up in a state of paranoia about the West, you have little room to talk about "Islamophobia," but we can talk about it anyway.

The amount of backlash after the World Trade Center attack was very small. Amazingly small.

(In contrast, every time Muslims even think they've been slighted, there are massive demonstrations and often mass hysteria.)

While the number of anti-Muslim attacks were few and far between, sales of books about Islam skyrocketed. I'm talking about legitimate books about Islam. Religious studies books. There was a major surge of interest in Islam. Not in conversion, mind you. Rather the desire to know more.

Now you say that such hysteria and violence is not Islam.
But millions of other Muslims say that indeed that is Islam!
They are even willing to die for that murderous, fanatical brand of Islam.

We know that Muhammad went to war -- a lot .
Christ was a peaceful itinerate Rabbi -- the "Prince of Peace."

What should Christians do with that knowledge? Should we pretend that all religions are the same? Is there a reason to honestly believe that all religions are the same?

Is there a legitimate reason to believe that Islam is peaceful?

My Sufi friends would say that there is a reason to believe Islam is peaceful. And they demonstrate that peaceful form of Islam. But the fundamentalist Muslims don't like the Sufis and the Taliban wouldn't even let them worship.

So will the real Islam please stand up.

Is it the millions of anti-West fanatics who think that we're in some kind of plot against them?

Or is it those amazingly-silent Muslims who believe in peace and love?

You can hardly blame those few Americans who suffer from "Islamophobia" when thousands of Americans were killed in the name of Islam not even a year ago and the peaceful Muslims don't seem to have much of a voice.

[Mediocrates]

I'll check the source material today but the basic premise of something I was reading is that, at least in the US about 80% of the public facing muslim institutions have been taken over by militant Islamist factions. The point being regardless of what individuals believe, the only organizations that are socially or politically involved or connected to the media are the most militant & extremist. I tend to believe this as far as the US is concerned because simply put that is who is grabbing the atttention for themselves.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I'll check the source material today but the basic premise of something I was reading is that, at least in the US about 80% of the public facing muslim institutions have been taken over by militant Islamist factions. The point being regardless of what individuals believe, the only organizations that are socially or politically involved or connected to the media are the most militant & extremist. I tend to believe this as far as the US is concerned because simply put that is who is grabbing the atttention for themselves.

Ah here it is.

http://hnn.us/articles/927.html

HNN is a site run by profressional academic historians.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/00000006DA01.htm


"Extreme Reactions"

'Allah is the owner of Britain, the owner of the universe', shouted Abu Hamza, radical imam of Finsbury Park mosque, at the Rally for Islam in Trafalgar Square on 25 August (1).


Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, leader of the group Al-Muhajiroun that headed the rally, said that he had a 'religious obligation to invite non-Muslims to Islam', and directed his call to Queen Elizabeth II herself: 'Come over to Islam!'


It might seem difficult to see the difference between the Islamic demonstrators and the United Church of something or other that occupied Trafalgar Square after them. Only the Muslim demo was filmed by a number of cameramen, and there was a journalist every few yards - so there must have been something to it.

....read the rest of the article on the link providedn (only 5 pages)

The conclusion I'm coming to is that radical is as radical does. It is not serene and there is little if anything spiritual about it.


Here is a key excerpt:

Al-Muhajiroun wins media attention because it keys into fears and insecurities. Rather than gaining notoriety through its own strengths, it is parasitic upon society's weaknesses. The group only has to mutter something about killing infidels and everybody runs around in panic.


It was apt that the Al-Muhajiroun demo was attended by the BNP, as this is another tin-pot organisation that is blown up to huge proportions by the media. The BNP is no more going to lead a revival of fascism than Al-Muhajiroun is going to carry out an Islamic holy war. In both cases, these ideas are whipped up by the fearful imagination of others.

[martinw718]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I'll check the source material today but the basic premise of something I was reading is that, at least in the US about 80% of the public facing muslim institutions have been taken over by militant Islamist factions. The point being regardless of what individuals believe, the only organizations that are socially or politically involved or connected to the media are the most militant & extremist. I tend to believe this as far as the US is concerned because simply put that is who is grabbing the atttention for themselves.

I wouldn't doubt it.

You don't hear much from the peaceful Moslems these days. They are out there but they are afraid to talk.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/arti...aug/pipes2.htm

Faces of American Islam
Daniel Pipes and Khalid Duran
August 16, 2002

Our respective bookshelves groan under the weight of books bearing titles like Islam and the West, The Future of Islam and the West, and The Islamic World and the West. What is striking about these books - all quite recently written and published - is the anachronism of their geographic premise. With millions of Muslims now living in the West, especially in North America and Western Europe, the old dichotomy of Islam and the West exists no more. This presence of Muslims in the West has profound importance for both civilizations involved, the Western and the Islamic, and has a potential for both good and ill. Indeed, looking ahead, it is hard to see any other cultural interaction quite so fraught with implications as this one.

As has become evident of late, a vast number of Muslims, those living in Europe and the Americas no less than those elsewhere, harbor an intense hostility to the West. For most Muslims, this mix of envy and resentment remains a latent sentiment, but for some it acquires operational significance. Merely to conjure the names of Ayatollah Khomeini, Muammar Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, and Osama bin Laden is to convey the power of this hatred, its diverse ideological roots, and its power to threaten. Their counterparts also live in the West, where they have a unique inclination not just to disrupt through violence but also to challenge the existing order. Will this challenge be contained or will it bring yet greater problems, including violence?
__________________________

....for the rest of the article see the url provided.

[SteveMetch]

Manuel, in answer to your question on predestination.

Source:

http://answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/God/chap7.htm

The word used by the Koran and in the Hadith for predestination is hadar; in theological Works by Moslems the more technical word is takdir. Bth come from the same root, which means "to measure out," "to order beforehand." The Koran passages on this subject are many; the following are representative:

Surah 54:59: "All things have been created after fixed decree."

Surah 3 : 139: "No one can die except by God's permission according to the book that fixes the term of life."

Surah 8 :17: "God slew them, and those shafts were God's, not thine."

Surah 9 :51: "By no means can aught befall us save what God has destined for us."

Surah 44 :4: "God misleadeth whom He will and whom He will He guideth." This occurs frequently.

Surah 37 :94: "When God created you and what ye make."

Surah 76:29, 30: "This truly is a warning; and whoso willeth taketh the way of his Lord; but will it ye shall not unless God will it, for God is knowing, wise. "

Not to weary the reader with the commentaries, we give the orthodox interpretation of the above text in the words of Al Berkevi: "It is necessary to confess that good and evil take place by the predestination


This is why the out cry from the "peacefull" Muslims is muted at best. The murder of 3,000 US citizens or 3,000,000 in an atomic bomb deliveried via cargo container is and would be seen as gods will "It is written in the book". This book they refer to describes all that has happened and all that will happen. This fatalism is one of the things holding back Muslims cultures.

[Philip]

I think the most direct way to explode the idea of Islamic terrorism is to point out that many of the most vicious Palestinian terrorists -- notably, George Habash and his PFLP, and most of the Black September organization -- were Christians. If the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a matter, as many Israel supporters claim, of some existential opposition to Judaism by Islam, how does this explain these Christian terrorists?

I think the real story is that Israel's supporters -- in addition to wanting to shift attention from the fact that this might very well be a conflict over land and sovereignty -- understand that they need the support of the largely Christian United States, and therefore are happy to gloss over the fact that there are not a few Christian Palestinians who are as opposed to Israel's activities as are the Moslems.

[5-alef]

many of the most vicious Palestinian terrorists -- notably, George Habash and his PFLP, and most of the Black September organization -- were Christians.

what ARE the most vicious organization?
HAMAS, Hizbullah and Islamic Jihad.
they are ultra religious, they are extreme, they deny any kind of talk with Israel and seek its ultimate destruction , they are responsible for the most aweful attacks in history, they rely heavily on Islamic rule, and they are completely un-tolerant towards other religions.

[Philip]

"Ignore the man behind that curtain! I am the Great and Powerful Oz!"

Are you saying that George Habash was a swell guy, 5-alef? Never forgot birthdays or anniversaries? And the PFLP -- just misunderstood?