Give Hamas a state???

[dayag]

But the fact remains that it needs to be declared an independent state and a state dependent on Egypt and their crossings, not Israel. Yes, they will import arms from Egypt, but they are doing that anyway through tunnels. If an independent Gaza becomes a failed state, and there are no doubts about it, let the blame fall on Egypt. Israel cannot continue controlling Gaza's borders, airspace, etc. They just cannot. Nor will any US president support a military "occupation."

Yes, there will be terrorism coming from Gaza, but what's the difference if Israel is controlling their Israel-Gaza border or not? In my eyes, they are just taking more responsibility, getting world-wide flack for it, and of course, getting nothing in return. They also need to distribute their own currency, or Egyptian currency and stop using the shekel.

They claimed they were going to "disengage" from Gaza, so enough of the BS already. If they are going to keep the borders open with Gaza, there was no reason to ethnically cleanse the Jews who were living there.

I have no doubt you are right concerning Obama, but if McCain is elected, we'll see whether any US president would support a military reoccupation of Gaza. Any hudna will be temporary and eventually we will be forced to return to that territory to stop the missles.

I have zero doubt that George W. Bush would back us if he is still in office when this temporary truce inevitably fails.

If you lived in S'derot or Ashkelon you wouldn't be so accepting of "terrorism coming from Gaza."

[Yala]

I have no doubt you are right concerning Obama, but if McCain is elected, we'll see whether any US president would support a military reoccupation of Gaza.

McCain will not support it. Do you see how much flack he is getting for just saying we might have to maintain a military presence in Iraq, similar to Germany, for 100 years. They have turned it into him saying a 100 year war!!

Any hudna will be temporary

of course, but why are you using this stupid lingo from the 7th century?

eventually we will be forced to return to that territory to stop the missles.

They may do a 1-2 day sweep up, but they will never re-occupy Gaza. They do not have the support of anyone to do this. I don't even know if there is support in Israel for this, but I could be wrong.

Besides, they could not stop the missiles when there was a military and civilian presence in Gaza, what makes you think they can stop it now???

I have zero doubt that George W. Bush would back us if he is still in office when this temporary truce inevitably fails.

He would definitely not.

If you lived in S'derot or Ashkelon you wouldn't be so accepting of "terrorism coming from Gaza."

You know I am not accepting of it, at all, and I think the gov't has done a terrible job for those people. I have family there, so please don't tell me that.

The truth is that those communities voted to the left, that info was in all the Israeli papers, and most were for disengagement. I was also for it, although I have said many times I do not agree with the way they handled it...

[farmall]

"And in a way the dark cynic in me welcomes a world which is willing to accept civil, sectarian, violence on their soils as a legitimate means to an end."

That's realism. The idea that what you said is in any way cynical reflects the culture of PC brainwashing that has changed our terminology. You aren't at all brainwashed, but it is word usage that has changed.

Violence is a tool. The West used to be wonderful at using it. If it takes violence from an enemy to wake us up that is far better than dying of toxic peace. Jihadists THINK that they can fight. I welcome the day when we can show them what total, unlimited, relentless war is like. Their own violence is what we need to free our people to cleanse our countries of these vermin and bomb them back past the stone age.

[dayag]

McCain will not support it. Do you see how much flack he is getting for just saying we might have to maintain a military presence in Iraq, similar to Germany, for 100 years. They have turned it into him saying a 100 year war!!

of course, but why are you using this stupid lingo from the 7th century?

They may do a 1-2 day sweep up, but they will never re-occupy Gaza. They do not have the support of anyone to do this. I don't even know if there is support in Israel for this, but I could be wrong.

Besides, they could not stop the missiles when there was a military and civilian presence in Gaza, what makes you think they can stop it now???

He would definitely not.

You know I am not accepting of it, at all, and I think the gov't has done a terrible job for those people. I have family there, so please don't tell me that.

The truth is that those communities voted to the left, that info was in all the Israeli papers, and most were for disengagement. I was also for it, although I have said many times I do not agree with the way they handled it...

Time will tell which of us is right, Yala, and use of the the word "hudna" did not end in the 7th century.

[Yala]

use of the the word "hudna" did not end in the 7th century.

my point was why are you using hamas terms??

[dayag]

my point was why are you using hamas terms??

It is a common term in Israel.
Check out the Jerusalem post website and you will find it 511 times,
check out the ynetnews website and you will find it 71 times.

[Mediocrates]

That's a planning horizon. That's really what the agreement should be. Set out a timeline that establishes when each of the services Israel provides will either be eliminated or, a market rate is to be paid for them. Money is a coward. If Israelis privately want to trade with Gaza then fine, let them and their insurance carriers bear the brunt and the risk of that. If Gaza wants to trade with Egypt, then fine. Let Egypt worry about it. They don't want the Palestinians any more than anyone else. Hamas sprung from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which Egypt is already fighting a secret war with. If Gaza pollutes the Mediterranean then rally all their neighbors, not just Israel, to sanction them and fine them and make them clean it up. Cyprus, Crete and Greece don't want them mucking it up either.

See it's called a jobs program, that's what development is. Israel tells them no more electricity after xxxx date. Ok in the interim they figure out a stop gap but plan to HIRE a ton of people to BUILD their own powerplant and then RUN it for themselves. If they blow it up, well I guess that's their problem. See that's what being a 'country' is all about. And because it's bona fide development, then they will be able to attract development capital from someone to do it. If there's money to be made, someone will come to make it. And even if half of everything is subsidized by the EU and UN for another hundred years, well that's money from somewhere too. If the EU and UN simply gave them 10 billion Euros a year, every year for the next 40 years and became in effect either their partners or their viceroys as a result, it's better than what they have now. Certainly a chunk of that will get stolen, and another chunk will be used for weapons, but again, an independent country firing into another country, well we tend to call that an act of war. That is the waterlevel of violence we were talking about. And if they can give then they can take it too. In fact a permanent and active state of war would not be materially different from what is happening now. You don't have a 'truce' with people you're not fighting, do you? They send a rocket, Israel flattens an apartment building. Non-disproportionate force.

Over that timeline, eventually Israel officially disengages in everyway - government to government. Goods and services are traded on an as negotiated privately basis. The frontier between the two countries is essentially closed except for a few cross points. Most of the loaded traffic will be in not out anyhow so it's easier to check empty trucks for contraband than it is full loads. And any Israeli who breaks the law, trades in restricted goods or classified materials or weapons goes to jail for 40 years and is fined 10 million dollars. Any Gazan who illegally enters Israel is named as a collaborator with the IDF and sent back.

[redcake]

Ok in the interim they figure out a stop gap but plan to HIRE a ton of people to BUILD their own powerplant and then RUN it for themselves. If they blow it up, well I guess that's their problem.

Everything you're saying is logical, but we know Palestinian is ever their own problem. They're professional welfare cases. If they're unhappy, and unruly it's obviously the fault of someone, and none of this accounts for the worlds need to scapegoat Jews. We're talking about a world community that needs the Jews to be evil aggressors so they can absolves themselves of guilt, or hell, just act on jealousy. Disengagement is seen as an act of aggression rather then an emancipation which should allow the so called freedom Palestinians have been supposedly fighting for. Dealing in false premises doesn't work though. What needs to happen is a declaration to the world community that Israel is handing land over for a Palestinian State - Israel should declare it - and they should do so under the condition that the world community, and specifically Egypt in accordance with their peace agreements, along with the Palestinians themselves will care for it's well being and success or failures alone. Israel should agree to contribute money to the pot as a silent partner only, and do so merely as a gesture of good will. It must be theatrical and be immediately followed with the type of no tolerance policy to protects it's borders you suggested. In short, Israel should begin preparing for a war in Gaza that will push Arabs off their border and back into Egypt, and then Egypt can decide if they want to fight with or against Israel. We know there's no chance in hell the Palestinians are going to establish utilities and economic trade.

Not that my version is much different then your original idea ......

[NewsGuy]

Redcake is right that they need to focus more on special ops. The US and Israel are stupid to fight these terrorists with a regular army.

Agreed. It seems that, under international law, armies are not allowed to return massive fire at terrorists who operate out of civilian areas. Nor can armies round up the local population to find terrorists wearing civilian clothing.

So, either international law needs to be changed, or new military tactics are needed, which means special ops.

FWIW, I think that international law will be changed once, God forbid, an extremist Muslim group sets off a dirty bomb in a major Western city. Then there will be an entirely different balance of civil rights vs. the need for survival in the face of extremist Islam.

What pray tell, is a 'state'? It appears that Gaza is more or less already a state. All that remains is to essentially recognize it as such and come to some enforceable agreement about supplies and services delivered to it

Yes, exactly. Just a declaration is needed, which will be done by Hamas. Ironically, the blockade of Gaza and the infighting between Palestinians have shaped Gaza into a much more distinct and independent area.

Also, on a separate note, if Hamastan is declared, it will perpetuate the split between Gaza and the West Bank, which divides and weakens the Palestinians.

[Yala]

Also, on a separate note, if Hamastan is declared, it will perpetuate the split between Gaza and the West Bank, which divides and weakens the Palestinians.

I believe this was Sharon's plan

[redcake]

I don't know if we should credit Sharon with a divide and conquer strategy but it's not as if Palestinians were ever one people to begin with.

I say reinstate a new Irgun, and load them up with high tech toys.

[Yala]

I have always believed this was Sharon's plan and it is the reason I supported disengagement. He was no leftist and understood the Palestinians very well. Did you support disengagement by the way, RC, for whatever reason?

[redcake]

I did support it until I watched it on TV and the reality set in. I can also remember using the same logic we're using now with the creation of a Hamas led Palestinian state. I still don't believe Israel ever wanted Gaza, or that developing the land was a smart way to secure Israel. I wasn't raised thinking of Gaza as Israel proper. I now think the settlers make some very compelling arguments that aren't just based in biblical entitlement, and I'm regretful that I ever argued on behalf of uprooting yet another fertile Jewish community.

[Mediocrates]

More importantly it was inevitable. The numbers just weren't on their side. Hard as it may be that's a fact. Sharon looked at it a number of different ways.

In order to show some progress he was going to have to move some Jewish communities. What better way to do that than to focus on the 8000 in Gaza in lieu of the hundreds of thousands in Yesha.

Gaza has little if any strategic importance to Israel and militarily it matters little in the context of conventional warfare. In '67 the IDF went AROUND Gaza and never entered it. The so called occupation was a purely political construct the Arabs invented when Egypt unilaterally and unasked, walked away from Gaza.

This is a hard one to swallow, but better the rockets fall on Sderot than Jerusalem, Yaffo, Haifa....Sderot is has a pioneer spirit, a little more than the urbane central corridor of Israeli towns and cities. Devil's bargains are exactly what they sound like. No one said it would be pretty.

Splitting the Palestinian leadership up into manageable chunks is a good and rational strategy. Gaza isn't solely owned and operated by Hamas. Hamas is the most powerful of many gangs and splinter groups. So it's manageable. Counterterrorism is more manageable there as well. And if Hamas was going to gain ascendency better it be in the contained space of Gaza. Hamas isn't stupid. They know that if they prompted the population to stage some mass exodus over the fence into Israel, not only would it fail but they would lose their own power and control over the situation. 2 weeks later 90% of those Gazans would be repatriated and Hamas would be out of a job.



Note: 10 Israelis died in car crashes yesterday. Maybe instead of stealing cars, the Palestinians should give the Israelis cars and let them finish themselves off. Honestly, what on earth is wrong with you?

[Yala]

I did support it until I watched it on TV and the reality set in. I can also remember using the same logic we're using now with the creation of a Hamas led Palestinian state. I still don't believe Israel ever wanted Gaza, or that developing the land was a smart way to secure Israel. I wasn't raised thinking of Gaza as Israel proper. I now think the settlers make some very compelling arguments that aren't just based in biblical entitlement, and I'm regretful that I ever argued on behalf of uprooting yet another fertile Jewish community.

I hate to say it but better qassams, which hopefully a solution can be found for, than a terror train running through Israel from Gaza to Judea.