Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 142

Thread: Sharing the blame

  1. #1
    marinade
    Guest
    Now hold on just one minute here. I agree that the word Holocaust was inappropriate and disproportionate, but everyone here seems to put 100% of the blame on the Palestinians. Do the Israelis not deserve some blame? Is it totally inconceivable that a military can commit atrocities? What makes the IDF so much more capable of self-restraint than the US Army, Japanese, or the Russians (to name a few)? All of which have committed war crimes in the past.

    Could it also be possible that Israel wants peace as much as Hamas does? Don’t forget Sharon has been against every peace proposal put forth. He was against peace with the Jordanians, Egyptians, against Oslo, Taba , and the Saudi peace proposal. He wouldn’t even discuss it. He is the person who, purposely, visited a holy site that he know would inflame the Palestinian people right after the two sides from the Taba talks said that they were the closest to an agreement as they have ever been. He’s the one who orders the assassination of militants/ freedom fighters/ terrorists (whenever) whenever there is a lull in the violence.

    I’m not trying to blame one side or the other, I’m just trying to point out that both sides have committed horrendous acts of violence which should never be excused.

  2. #2
    marinade
    Guest
    I apologize if I wrote an inappropriate post. I saw others write replies about the use of the word “holocaust” and I thought I would throw my humble opinion in. I didn’t realize that I posted incorrectly.

  3. #3
    L@mplighterM
    Guest
    I’ve certainly never put 100% of the blame on the Palestinians especially not the ones that have been brutally murdered on the orders of Arafat. The Syrians, Lebanese, Iranians, Saudis, etc. all have a share in the blame.

    I think that it would be totally wrong to believe that Israel could have done anything different to pacify Arafat or his likes. At least that’s how I see it.

  4. #4
    marinade
    Guest
    Originally posted by L@mplighterM
    I’ve certainly never put 100% of the blame on the Palestinians especially not the ones that have been brutally murdered on the orders of Arafat. The Syrians, Lebanese, Iranians, Saudis, etc. all have a share in the blame.

    I think that it would be totally wrong to believe that Israel could have done anything different to pacify Arafat or his likes. At least that’s how I see it.
    Well, that’s not exactly fair. First you seem to be shifting any blame away from the Israelis to the Arabs, when the government in place has, time after time, rejected peace proposals. Even those that have proven to be very good for Israel. The Egypt and Jordanian peace has been good for Israel and the stability of the Middle East. A year ago the Saudi deal offered peace to Israel from almost all it’s neighbors. Peace. Why was this deal rejected without any serious discussion?

    Now, perhaps you could shed some light, but it seems to me that it’s about land. Perhaps Lukid thinks that a couple thousand lives lost is no big deal if, in a few decades, all the Arabs will be moved (erased) from the land and the “greater Israel” dream is met. If this is not true, then why do the Israelis reject peace so quickly when it is offered?

    Again, I’m not saying that the Palestinians share no blame, but they are, at least, willing to return to the negotiating table.

  5. #5
    5-alef
    Guest
    A year ago the Saudi deal offered peace to Israel from almost all it’s neighbors. Peace. Why was this deal rejected without any serious discussion?
    this deal is nothing new. the saudis just revived old ideas (back to the rogers plan)
    its aim however was to move attention from Saudi-Arabia and the 9/11.
    ever thought why did they suddenly started talking peace?

    The Egypt and Jordanian peace has been good for Israel and the stability of the Middle East.
    and even better for Jordan and Egypt!

    Perhaps Lukid thinks that a couple thousand lives lost is no big deal if, in a few decades, all the Arabs will be moved (erased) from the land and the “greater Israel” dream is met. If this is not true, then why do the Israelis reject peace so quickly when it is offered?
    when the arabs will sencerely offer a peace, not as a part of a stage plan, then you'll find supporters.
    remember the Likud party had been elected after Israelis approved the peace deal of Oslo. it proved to be a costly gamble.
    want to remove the Likud?
    show a REAL and TRUE intentions for peace.

  6. #6
    minusthejihad
    Guest
    If you really believe that the "Saudi Peace Proposal" was at all realistic, held any weight, or came from a trusted source, rather than being a great PR gesture from a country that explicitly assists in the murder of Israelis, than you need to seriously start doing some research, ask for help from one of the esteemed forum users, or say you were kidding.

    Any person with any knowledge of history, mathematics, politics, economics, etc., can see that that proposal virtually seals Israel's doom.

    1. What makes you think the rest of the Arab world would allow Saudi to make their decisions for them and go against their own policies of continuing war on Israel?

    2. Why would any of the terrorist organizations stop their attacks, after all, that is all they do, and they are not directly associated with any other Arab governments. Isael's largest problems aren't that Arab governments do not recognize them, but all the fringe groups like Hamas, PFLP, Hezbullah - all groups that rejected Peace proposals in the last month that were offered BY Israel, which debunks you're theory that Israel does not offer peace.

    3 And how about all the peace offers turned down by the PA lately offered by Israel? Why do they keep turning down chances for Peace. Anyone, but you, Phillip, and Issaq can see that Israel makes attempts and Arabs respond with more violence.

    4. Why go back to 67 borders? After all, Israel was attacked and defeated their aggresors, not once, but 3 major times, simultaneously regaining land lost thousands of years ago. the 67 borders have nothing to do with Peace, but with sore loosers.

  7. #7
    Blodhemn
    Guest
    i guess i'm just not a sharing person...

  8. #8
    mymicz
    Guest
    Originally posted by marinade
    Now hold on just one minute here. I agree that the word Holocaust was inappropriate and disproportionate, but everyone here seems to put 100% of the blame on the Palestinians. Do the Israelis not deserve some blame? Is it totally inconceivable that a military can commit atrocities? What makes the IDF so much more capable of self-restraint than the US Army, Japanese, or the Russians (to name a few)? All of which have committed war crimes in the past.

    Could it also be possible that Israel wants peace as much as Hamas does? Don’t forget Sharon has been against every peace proposal put forth. He was against peace with the Jordanians, Egyptians, against Oslo, Taba , and the Saudi peace proposal. He wouldn’t even discuss it. He is the person who, purposely, visited a holy site that he know would inflame the Palestinian people right after the two sides from the Taba talks said that they were the closest to an agreement as they have ever been. He’s the one who orders the assassination of militants/ freedom fighters/ terrorists (whenever) whenever there is a lull in the violence.

    I’m not trying to blame one side or the other, I’m just trying to point out that both sides have committed horrendous acts of violence which should never be excused.
    Visiting a holy site is no cause for war, just like bitching at your boyfriend for being lazy and drunk doesn't give him the right to beat you up. Violence sows the seed for more violence. Only by peaceful brotherly action can one truly acheive peace. So it is a cycle of viscous behavior that cannot be condoned on either side, however, it is a fact that the violence is over something truly stupid. The Israeli's do not want to give anything away to people who chant about their distruction. It is on the Palestinians to change their slogan of violence. I do not here Sharon chanting or inciting chants to throw the Palestinians into the sea. Perhaps just his words, not actions, are politically correct in this instance. However, it is apparent that all deaths on the palestinian civilian side have been accidental by-products of sweeps to rout out terrorists for want of a better modus operandi, while all deaths on the Israeli civilian side have been intentionally targeting children, students and working class folk. I agree that Israel should be more careful in it's war endevor when it comes to civilians, but it is the Palestinian side who calls for war or Jihad by intentionally targeting civilians. I do not like anyone in power because power corrupts absolutely, but I have to give Sharon the fact that he has his back against a sea while Arafat is supposedly bolstered by several nations to the rear of him who give a lot of money to his cause for what seems to be little result. The Israeli's have created a megaforce from an arid desert, while the Palestinians simply gripe about having more desert to keep dry. I do not mean that they should settle for less or just be happy with what they have. But what I truly mean is that I haven't seen them even trying to make lemonade from their given lemons, they simply ask others to make it for them. Equal amounts of funding come in to both sides from various agencies including the dissproportionate dolings of the U.S. and the millions handed to the Palestinians by the Saudi's, it seems that the Israeli's are making better due with what they are given. I do think that Israeli's should build instead of destroying. They are much, much better at it and won't be criticized as much. I do think that there is another way. But I cannot blame both sides completely equally, I feel the incidents that caused the border struggles were brought on by Palestinians through violence upon civilians and not by the Israeli's. I do not believe that the people across the border have it any worse because of the Israelis natural hatred, this hatred was something that grew from exasperation and many deaths. i have always seen the most important part of Judaism to be the struggle for the underdog. Even now, individual Israelis ship food and help the the other side, and even as they do, their brothers and fathers die from suicide bombs. I have yet to see one Palestinian, and there are many who have money, ship anything to an Israeli to try and make peace. I have yet to see one Palestinian offer medical help to an Israeli. Peace is a reciprocal emotion, or it has to be to last. If you can show incidence of 5000 or more palestinians marching and defying their government for peace ( like the 5000 Israeli soldiers who refused to enter the camps) , I would agree with you completely, but they do not ever march for peace, they march for war and happines that someone is dead.

  9. #9
    marinade
    Guest
    “when the Arabs will sincerely offer a peace, not as a part of a stage plan, then you'll find supporters”

    How do you know what the intentions were? The issue was not pursued by anyone in the Israeli government. Why not make a phone call, schedule a meeting and see where it leads? The worst that could happen is that Israel gives a counter proposal and the Palestinians say “no”. Would you be left in any worse position? Actually it would be a huge diplomatic boost for Israel.

    “remember the Likud party had been elected after Israelis approved the peace deal of Oslo.”

    True, but equally true was that the Lukid was elected after Sharon made a deliberate and effective attempt to debunk the peace process.

    “Any person with any knowledge of history, mathematics, politics, economics, etc., can see that that proposal virtually seals Israel's doom.”

    Are you kidding me??? How would peace seal Israel’s doom??? Peace is what most countries aspire to achieve. It’s what makes a country flourish. Peace brings stability, which brings economic prosperity. Peace is good for culture as well as the mental well being of a nation.

    “What makes you think the rest of the Arab world would allow Saudi to make their decisions for them and go against their own policies of continuing war on Israel?”

    Because the other Arab countries signed and endorsed the proposal.

    “Why would any of the terrorist organizations stop their attacks”

    That’s a good question. The only thing that I could say is that during the Oslo process, there were drastically fewer attacks and the organizations had a small minority support among the Palestinian people. This is when they had hope, their dignity, and realistic aspirations of freedom.

    “And how about all the peace offers turned down by the PA lately offered by Israel? Why do they keep turning down chances for Peace? Anyone, but you, Phillip, and Issaq can see that Israel makes attempts and Arabs respond with more violence.”

    What newspapers are you getting this from? Every time I read, it’s the IDF launching attacks during relative peacetime to assassinate political/terrorist leaders. What chances for peace were you talking about?

    But I will say that Hamas and Co. have deliberately attempted to sabotage any cease-fire as well, but nobody here denies that, what my post was saying is that Israel should share some of the blame.

    “Why go back to 67 borders? After all, Israel was attacked and defeated their aggressors, not once, but 3 major times, simultaneously regaining land lost thousands of years ago. the 67 borders have nothing to do with Peace, but with sore loosers.”

    I don’t know, how about international law? You can’t just have countries taking land by force. That’s (officially) why we stopped Iraq from keeping Kuwait.

  10. #10
    minusthejihad
    Guest
    Whay am I doing this again? Over and over and over....

    “Any person with any knowledge of history, mathematics, politics, economics, etc., can see that that proposal virtually seals Israel's doom.”

    Are you kidding me??? How would peace seal Israel’s doom??? Peace is what most countries aspire to achieve. It’s what makes a country flourish. Peace brings stability, which brings economic prosperity. Peace is good for culture as well as the mental well being of a nation.


    Read it again please, I did not say peace, but the bogus "Saudi Peace Proposal". Don't twist what I say just to get another post out of me please.

    “Why go back to 67 borders? After all, Israel was attacked and defeated their aggressors, not once, but 3 major times, simultaneously regaining land lost thousands of years ago. the 67 borders have nothing to do with Peace, but with sore loosers.”

    I don’t know, how about international law? You can’t just have countries taking land by force. That’s (officially) why we stopped Iraq from keeping Kuwait.


    HELLO. Israel did not invade anyone by force, they were invaded and pushed the enemy back. The result was lost property by the aggresors. Please show me where International law says that a defending army can not use land it pushed the enemy back from to halt further attacks and have the upper hand in bargaining.

    And if so, then why have European nations colonized the whole world and not had to return those lands. Should we give Texas and California back to Mexico or better yet, Spain?

    Please do not get offended if I do not return anymore of your posts, they seem very gullible, misinformed, or better yet, a ploy to keep yourself busy by asking the same questions you know the answers to but refuse to believe.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Mediocrates's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    N Carolina
    Posts
    30,616
    I don’t know, how about international law? You can’t just have countries taking land by force. That’s (officially) why we stopped Iraq from keeping Kuwait.

    Except that only Iraq thought Kuwait was their 13th Province and yet the final dispostion of Yesha is unresolved in the actual resolutions. If the UN had said that Iraq must withdraw by some undetermined date to some undetermined line then I suppose one could make a case for it being the same thing as this here.

    Are you kidding me??? How would peace seal Israel’s doom??? Peace is what most countries aspire to achieve. It’s what makes a country flourish. Peace brings stability, which brings economic prosperity. Peace is good for culture as well as the mental well being of a nation.

    No. Security does.

    That’s a good question. The only thing that I could say is that during the Oslo process, there were drastically fewer attacks and the organizations had a small minority support among the Palestinian people. This is when they had hope, their dignity, and realistic aspirations of freedom.

    That is circular reasoning. There were fewer attacks before Sept 2001 because there were fewer attacks. One does not lead one's people down the path of hope, their dignity, and realistic aspirations of freedom and then wake up one day and say "nah, **** that let's kill some people and trash our whole project down the sewer."

  12. #12
    marinade
    Guest
    mymicz,

    Well, I give you credit for at least trying to see the faults in Israel policy, but you seem to think that every offense against the non-combatants of Palestine are accidental. Basically saying that the IDF are the good guys against the evil Palestinians. I truly believe that this isn’t good vs. bad, it’s bad vs. bad. The only difference is that one has bigger guns.

    “Equal amounts of funding come in to both sides from various agencies including the disproportionate dolings of the U.S. and the millions handed to the Palestinians by the Saudi's, it seems that the Israeli's are making better due with what they are given.”

    You cannot be serious. Israel is given 3 billion dollars a year by the US alone not counting loans and subsequent loan forgiveness. Palestinian aid nowhere near that before the uprising, and is much lower now.

    “I have yet to see one Palestinian, and there are many who have money, ship anything to an Israeli to try and make peace. I have yet to see one Palestinian offer medical help to an Israeli.”

    The children of Palestine are starving (malnourished) at a rate of 22%. This is because they have no money, and because, if they did, they have no way of getting food due to curfews and roadblocks. You think that the few Palestinians that have some money should give it to the occupying forces? Would you ask a homeless person for some money? Would you expect the Congo to give other’s money? You don’t ask the poor for money.

    “I do not here Sharon chanting or inciting chants to throw the Palestinians into the sea.”

    No he didn’t say anything about the sea; he did say that he would turn the Palestinians into pastrami, he is in the party that said that there would be no Palestinian state west of the Jordanian River. He did say that the killing of 13 children was one of Israel’s greatest successes.

    “but I have to give Sharon the fact that he has his back against a sea while Arafat is supposedly bolstered by several nations to the rear of him who give a lot of money to his cause for what seems to be little result.”

    Hello?? 3 billion dollars of aid. The most sophisticated military tech available to them? The ability to nuke another country (which is the only country in the region to have this)? The Arab countries are weak almost third world countries, they are no threat to Israel and it’s nuclear weapons, it’s jet fighters, it’s tanks, or it’s spy network. I mean, why do you think that Syria backs Hezzbolla (sorry if I murdered the spelling)? Because they cannot face Israel head on. No country in that region can. They would be absolutely destroyed.

  13. #13
    marinade
    Guest
    Mediocrates

    “Whay am I doing this again? Over and over and over....

    “Any person with any knowledge of history, mathematics, politics, economics, etc., can see that that proposal virtually seals Israel's doom.”

    Are you kidding me??? How would peace seal Israel’s doom??? Peace is what most countries aspire to achieve. It’s what makes a country flourish. Peace brings stability, which brings economic prosperity. Peace is good for culture as well as the mental well being of a nation.

    Read it again please, I did not say peace, but the bogus "Saudi Peace Proposal". Don't twist what I say just to get another post out of me please.”

    OK, this was your post:
    “If you really believe that the "Saudi Peace Proposal" was at all realistic, held any weight, or came from a trusted source, rather than being a great PR gesture from a country that explicitly assists in the murder of Israelis, than you need to seriously start doing some research, ask for help from one of the esteemed forum users, or say you were kidding.

    Any person with any knowledge of history, mathematics, politics, economics, etc., can see that that proposal virtually seals Israel's doom.”

    You mentioned "Saudi Peace Proposal" and then referred to the proposal by saying:
    “Any person… can see that that proposal virtually seals Israel's doom.”

    What else am I supposed to think that you were referring to?

    BTW, Security can only come with peace. The last two years should show you that.

  14. #14
    minusthejihad
    Guest
    Marinade,

    "Obviously, you're not a golfer" - Big Lebowski.

    How about, read it a third time, until you realize that I, not Mediocrates wrote the post.

    Do you need help with that shovel?

  15. #15
    Gilgamesh
    Guest
    Originally posted by marinade
    BTW, Security can only come with peace. The last two years should show you that.
    Good to know! now, tell that too the Arab terrorist. No more tanks, no more helicopters, no more road block, no more arrests and no more targetted killings... as soon as the lay down their arms and recognize Jews right to exist, in freedon and security, in a land of their own, because: Security can only come with peace, don't you agree?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Murder 6,000 Americans - blame Israel and forget about it
    By Robert Furst in forum In The News
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-24-2003, 02:27 PM
  2. Majority of Canadians blame US partly for 9/11
    By cerulean in forum In The News
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 10-04-2002, 06:54 AM
  3. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 08-29-2002, 05:17 AM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 08-07-2002, 04:34 PM
  5. Blame where blame is due
    By NewsGuy in forum Israeli-Arab Conflict
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-01-2002, 07:02 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •